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MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | Something I read yesterday got me thinking about this and I am curious what others experiences have been. The topic of how much info do you supply has come up a bunch over the years depending on what the topic is. There are many differeing opinions and I think the water one fishes has a huge influence on where you sit with this topic. As I thought about his I think the actual lake type can also make a huge difference. Because it really comes down to “Pressure” and how it will affect the waters you are concerned about. Plain and simple after thinking about this I think Pressure is variable that affects different lakes in different ways, the following are some of my experiences that make me believe this is the case. I think it boils down to this; Pressure is least affective on weed related fish and most affective on pin-point structure related fish. Three different time I have personally observed Pressure affect pin-point structure related fish: First time was on a 200+/- acre deep clear northern Wisconsin lake. When we started fishing this lake, we rarly saw another musky fisherman. Then we started opening our mouths and taking friends there, friends started taking friends there and the lake was also discovered by other groups of musky fishermen. Over the course of 5 years we went from November weekends alone out there to the last trip there was 4 or 5 boats the last trip of the year out there. We went from multiple fish days, with lots of sightings of giants to, very rare encounters with medium sized fish. For me a very important lesson on what can happen to a small lake if it becomes two popular. This lake is basically a large bowl, very easy to fish in the fall when the fish concentrate on the breaks. Thus everyone fishing it was pretty much fishing the same way. My guess is there are still plenty of fish in the lake they have just changed their patterns based on Pressure. Second lake is very similar, only it’s half the size. First year of discovery we got lots of fish including some very big ones. Next year we did a pretty good job of keeping it quite, however there was three of us that fish the lake pretty hard. As we got to fall we still caught fish, but it seamed like the average weight of the fish were dropping significantly. Year three fish were much harder to come by. Year four we stopped fishing the lake all together. Plan is to give it a break and see what happens. This lake was smaller and even more pinpoint structure related and as result I think or pressure alone had a much greater affect on the fish than even the first lake. Third place I saw pressure affect fish was LOTW, I would never believe it if I didn’t see it myself. But Onedia Esox and myself found a cherry little section of the lake where we where contacting many fish including many big ones. Jlong and his partner also discovered the same area. After two days of only two boats pounding these island shore lines the fish started to stop showing up. I think our pressure had something to do with this, based just on the way it tapered off. We decided to break the area into two pieces and each boat wouldn’t only fish their piece, when we stopped pounding the same water fish contacts went back up. Again fish where holding to pin-point pieces of structure. On the flip side, on Pelican Lake it seems like the weed beds ALWAYS HOLD fish. For three years now there has been one particular weedy bay that just keeps pumping out fish including big girls. This bay gets absolutely POUNDED, and it’s not that big! It is completely contrary to my experience with the other lakes, but it is indisputable. And looking at the tournaments I fish out there the weedbeds ALWAYS produce fish, regardless of pressure. And look at the Lake X that just about every muskie firster, that spends any time in Oneida County, fishes. This little lake, that’s under 500 acres, just keeps pumping out fish, including trophy class fish. It’s not fished hard during the week, I believe it does have more pressure than many surrounding lakes, but it is pretty busy on weekends and it just keeps ticking. It’s like the energizer bunny of musky lakes. This lake has some pinpoint structure, but it also has some pretty impressive weedbeds. And they just keep producing. Another area lake that has been hot the last two years regardless of pressure is Crescent, I just can’t believe that production hasn’t fallen off the last two years. It gets POUNDED and just keeps producing nice fat fish. It also has, big weedbeds. Coincidence, I think NOT! I would put the Three Lakes and Eagle River Chain in this same category. I think the common theme is you are looking for a needle in the haystack on these weedy lakes and as a result the pressure on the weed beds doesn’t affect the fish as much as when the fish are ambush feeding from specific structural spots on a break. Also the fish living in the weeds are probably feeding in a way such that the pressure isn’t as direct. My guess is weed bed fish spend more time roaming and foraging. So they maybe aren’t as spooky. Ok sorry for the long thread, but I am curious if others have had similar experiences. If this is the case it may help you decide when it’s ok to give up the hot pattern and Lake and when you may want to sit on it and ride it alone for awhile. Nail A Pig! Mike | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8856 | Mike, I'd say your observations are correct. We're all looking for those little gems, the lakes or spots that are relatively unfished.... A small, relatively featureless lake with not a lot of structure, whatever fish are there are going to congregate. If you, or a couple people find them it won't take long before those handful of fish that populate that area in that small lake have been contacted. Vast weedy bays like you are talking about? I believe the fish will be more scattered throughout, and if they are "stacked up" it might be in a place where you just don't find, or can't easily identify. "the spot on the spot" so to speak. Find it and you've found gold. If it's a point or a hump or a downed tree etc. and a few people find it, how long before the handful of fish that congregate there have been caught? But vast weedy areas? Could be a hole, or a rock under there, slight change in bottom contour... Under all those weeds. A dozen anglers go past casting the edge, maybe you coax a fish out of there, maybe you don't. Your post is dead on as far as I'm concerned. | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1939 Location: Black Creek, WI | Mike, I agree as well. I think that "revolving door" type structures help ease the impact of pressure as well. Just as you feel a large, featureless weedbed helps reduce the impact of pressure.... I think that if you have a "revolving door" type of structure facing a 200 acre basin... it will feel the impact of angling pressure much more-so than a similar structure facing a 2000 acre basin. If both lakes have 1 fish per acre... the larger lake has 200 different fish that might use that piece of structure... whereas the smaller lake would only have 20 fish that potentially could use that spot. I don't know about you.... but I'd rather fish a spot with a 200:1 chance of contacting a fish than a spot with a 20:1 chance at contacting a fish. Especially if there are several other boats also using that spot. If 2 boats are fishing the same 20:1 spot... it is now a 20:2 spot... which decreases that spot to a 10:1 chance. If two boats are fishing the 200:1 spot... it reduces your odds on that spot to 100:1.... which is 10 times better than on the smaller lake. jlong Edited by jlong 12/6/2007 2:05 PM | ||
| Jerry Newman |
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Location: 31 | I absolutely agree fishing pressure is an enormous part of the equation, I "think" I witnessed it firsthand on many occasions myself. I noticed something on Lake of the Woods while camping back in 1989 that basically changed my entire approach to Muskie fishing. I've always been a firm believer in the first light, last light deal... all things being equal. So I decided to work an expansive area until I found fish, pitch a tent and take advantage of the early and late bite, this also saved gas and time because there was a good distance between the areas and my base camp. Anyway, I spent nine weeks there in 89 and would notice as a new crew came in on Saturday with marked lake maps in hand... bang, bang, bang hit those pinpoint spots and race off to the next spot. You could pretty much bet on bucktails in the beginning of the week and jerk baits at the end of it. Some mornings I would be back at the tent having breakfast watching this same scenario unfolding, it was really quite a revelation to me then. It got to the point where I wouldn't use bucktails much on these spots, but that's a minor point. I applied the meat of this newfound knowledge I gained by fishing "off areas" adjacent to the prime spot... I would still fish the prime spot but would end up extending the area to include nearby locations that received little, if any, pressure. That is where I would normally see (and sometimes catch) the bigger fish. The camping also allowed me to be right on top of a big fish I had previously spotted without much running, especially at night... this was before GPS. Fishing pressure is definitely real, however, I've also noticed lakes and even areas will cycle, in other words there can be a crop of big fish that you stumbled into and three-five years later they are seemingly gone. I'd "speculate" what you've experienced on that smaller lake is just a normal fish cycle that's been compounded by the pressure. Either way the fish are gone so it's time to move on... or... fish those off areas primetime with something a little different if you feel the fish are still there. | ||
| MuskyTime |
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Posts: 331 Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Is pressure real? A couple thoughts come to my mind. The one thing that really caught me by surprise on my first trip to LOTW’s was the amount of boat side strikes and relative ease that one could convert figure eights. When you fish pressured water in say Wisconsin for example, regardless of the size of the lake I think it’s obvious IMO that musky react much differently than say a lake such as LOTW. With high-pressured waters you have to refine your approach and think out of the box to some extent to be successful. You have to use every advantage you can such as weather changes and moon phases to maximize your chances. Your margin of error is greatly reduced on high-pressured waters. There are just some things you cannot get away with like you can on a low-pressured body of water. I find it pretty rare to get a fish to go on a figure 8 in Wisconsin unless that fish has a death wish. But on LOTW’s I have converted lazy follows into net slime. I think this is absolutely due to the lack of pressure fish see on LOTW’s. I know these fish have the brain the size of a peanut and many say they are incapable of thinking, but conditioning induced by pressure to me is very real. The second thought that came to mind was how pressure can change an area of a large body of water such as LOTW’s. For example, there was an area of the NW Angle of LOTW that was really good for a couple years but then faded. I noticed that when it was really good I noted very little fishing pressure and of course as the pressure increased my fishing success was reduced. That same area later had a couple years where the water clarity was poor and many fishermen avoided the area because of bloomy or chocolate milk colored water. But then after a couple years of the poor water, the water cleared one spring and when I revisited my hot spots from several years past it was as if the fish had never seen a bait before! What a blast! Since then I keep searching for those areas that are absent of pressure. It is amazing what you can find when you take some time to explore. One last thought. A buddy of mine started fishing a lake about 10 years ago that today is very popular and extremely pressured. He said that it is amazing how the aggressiveness of the fish have changed with the increase in pressure. When he first started fishing the lake it was void of musky fishermen and the fish were hitting baits at the end of your cast. As pressure on the fish increased they would follow the baits half way back to the boat before striking. Then they started following to the boat and hitting on figure eights. Now you have to fish for them at night. Pretty interesting how pressure can change a fishery is such a short period of time. Ed | ||
| MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | Ed very interesting observation on the effects of pressure on how the fish strike. Regarding my little lake observation above, you will note that I stated that the fish seemed to get skinnier after we had really been pressuring this small lake. One thing we have discussed is, because this lake is so small is it possible that our pressure had actually affected the way these fish feed. By basically exploiting an unfished population, and CPRing a large number of fish in a short amount of time, did the extra pressure slow down their feeding habits as a result of the negative experience and as a result of that the fish thinned out. Something to think about in small systems. Of course the other explanation is the musky where exploiting a shallow bait fish connection and once they ate all the bait they had to leave that area, and the ones that stayed in catchable locations where thinner because the food had moved on. Or a combination of both. Very interesting stuff in my opinion. Nail A Pig! Mike | ||
| Matt DeVos |
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Posts: 584 | Great discussion and observations. I absolutely agree with Mike regarding the effect of pressure on weed-oriented fish, and for the reasons he mentioned. Right or wrong, I've also always rationalized that fish which are primarily weed-oriented are conditioned to feed by ambush. Depending upon the density of the weeds, fish that primarily feed by ambush are accustomed to make split-second eating decisions, as a vulnerable baitfish may only be in the predator's strike zone for a very short period of time due to the cover surroundings. As such, I don't think these muskies scrutinize a bait in the same way a muskie spending its time foraging in open water. Therefore, these muskies are more prone to making mistakes, and pressure doesn't have the same effect. Similarly, I've always thought that stained water fish are less susceptible to pressure for the same reason. These fish tend to be easier to fool due to limited visibility, and I think that it is generally easier to catch fish via lateral line stimulation. I can also relate to Jerry's, Mike's, and Ed's experiences on LOTW. In more than a decade of fishing portions of the NW Angle, I've developed a decent "milkrun" of spots. It is really interesting how some spots will cycle from being absolute gem's (big fish + numbers of fish) to being rather unproductive, and then back to being productive again. One variable that I believe has contributed to this phenomenon is pressure, as the unproductivity of certain spots has also coincided with seeing other boats on the same spot and/or increased fishing activity in the general area. These areas are not heavily weeded, but rather rock-oriented spots. I might be totally incorrect about this, but I think pressure has an exaggerated effect on fish in the key spots on massive bodies of water, like LOTW. On such a large body of water, there are literally countless key spots for muskies to forage. Muskies will set up on the key spots, but once pressure is introduced to that spot they can vacate much more easily because there are many, many more spots with high concentrations of forage and no pressure. Meanwhile, on a smaller body of water, certain key spots will still have most of the forage, and therefore the muskies will need to be there to feed. That susceptibility on small waters is diminished however because you are dealing with a much smaller poplulation of predators. Therfore, with any sort of pressure, these fish are more apt to be caught, or at least contacted, and if not weed-related as discussed above, seem to become more adept at scrutinizing artificial presentations. So I'm sure that I'm over-thinking everything, but no matter how you cut it, I definitely agree that pressure seems to have the least amount of adverse effect on weed-oriented fish. Edited by Matt DeVos 12/6/2007 7:59 PM | ||
| mavmskyb8 |
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Posts: 260 Location: Kentucky | This is all very interesting! I just think that fish swim around in and out, on and off! Bret | ||
| Reef Hawg |
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Posts: 3518 Location: north central wisconsin | No doubt that we've seen pressure play more of a factor on newly stocked/or largely under fished waters over the past few years. But, it may not be as noticable on many of my lifelong favorite WI lakes, where pressure to some degree has always been a factor. A good contingency have been lucky enough to get in on some hot bites in newly stocked lakes in the midwest, and the early days of Green bay/fox to see how fish react when there is no pressure, not a little or some, but none, on certain waters. I think it is arguable that there has never been a time that this many new lakes have peaked all in the relative same time. Fish eating lures where all or most hooks need to be cut. Being able to catch fish at will on oversimplified patterns that once seemed doomed on many of our old standby lakes(save for special moments), hot colored gaudy lures getting smoked as a rule, being able to come back to fish later and convert a very very high percentage of the time because nobody else was stopping there in the mean time. Just being able to observe these behaviors, and not get poopy pants when your unfished lake/river starts getting some pressure, and being able to move on with the fish trying to stay one step ahead, is fun enough to keep at the game for me. With catch and release, we know they are still there, and not getting smaller. Just need to be smarter about it ehh? I still lie awake thinking about all the pressure on some spots/waters now that we'd get upset 3 years ago if we saw one other rig on, but.......not as much as I used to. I think we get too old for getting that worked up about it...heheheh. This is one of the best twists on the topic I've seen in awhile, Mike, and thanks for getting me thinking about it. Edited by Reef Hawg 1/26/2008 3:50 PM | ||
| dougj |
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Posts: 906 Location: Warroad, Mn | All I'll say is that pressure even on a lake the size of the LOTWs is a very important part in the success in catching fish. I see spots changing ever year as people find out where to fish. I can also see a great deal of differance in how the fish react to a lure from 25-30 years ago to how they react now. I stll think fish somehow learn, at least they seem too. Doug Johnson | ||
| tkopke |
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| I am not going to type a long winded response as it is just too early on a Sat. morning. I would just like to add one observation I have made fishing WI. It sure seams that the fish are more willing to bite during the weekdays (less pressure) than during the weekend. I have seen it too many times that when late Fri/Sat rolls around the fishing gets tougher. Once Mon./Tues comes around the fishing picks up again. Talk about adversity for the weekend warrior! | |||
| Jerry Newman |
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Location: 31 | That's funny to think about them not as aggressive on the weekends, but probably true to some degree... part of that equation has to be the Muskie pie is being sliced into smaller pieces though. Whether it's the weekend or an angler bunch of deal, in these situations there is no question you have to define your approach to target conditioned fish. In high angling pressure situations I combat it with 4 a.m. starts on the prime spots and different type baits and presentations. One of my favorite (and easiest) tricks is to slow way down with a slow twitch or super slow Hog Wobbler or Creeper. I also try to get accurate casts tight to, and directly into the heaviest cover possible rather than plunking and winding along the edge like everyone else. Fishing a creeper around heavy cover can be frustrating... it can also be very effective! One thing we can count on is the overwhelming majority will be operating their baits at the basically same speed while casting. I think Doug's observation about how muskies react to a lure now versus even 15 or 20 years ago is spot on! I also agree that they somehow learn or something to that effect because their survival depends on it... it's just kind of nature's way. Whether it's something learned, something instinctive... or both? I have certainly witnessed this phenomenon myself firsthand on many occasions in several different bodies of water. | ||
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