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Posts: 477
Location: Iowa | I have had the same breaker trip twice on my trolling motor this year. Both times I was running the motor on high. Again, I'm not great at tracking down electrical problems. Could this simply be a breaker getting weak? I don't see any problems with the actual wiring, or loose connections. Thanks for any starting points. |
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Posts: 440
| Breaker needs to be at least 50 amp or the current breaker is shot. |
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Posts: 477
Location: Iowa | I'll check the amp rating. |
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Posts: 1638
Location: Minnesota | what size trolling motor do you u have.I had same problem with mine 80# it had 50s I put on a60 no problem since I went to a bigger breaker |
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Posts: 163
Location: lake st clair michigan | i had to replace mine ...the boat came with a 40 amp from the factory ,it would pop when run on high for extended time ...replaced with a minnkota 60 amp....no problems |
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Posts: 138
Location: Aurora IL | minn kota recommends 60 amp breaker for 70-80 lb thrust motors |
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | Where is the circuit breaker on an older 74# Maxxum? Never had a problem but I should get a spare to have on hand. |
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Posts: 1638
Location: Minnesota | my breaker is on the batteries |
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Posts: 440
| Just checked and I was wrong. 60 amp is what most of the new bigger trolling motors need. |
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Posts: 477
Location: Iowa | This site can help figure out problems, or make you feel stupid. In this case it did both for me. Existing circuit breaker are 40`s and the 80 Terrova needs 60`s. Thanks for pointing out the obvious! |
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | I would like to point out that simply changing your circuit breaker to a bigger sizeay take care of your problem but you must than make sure the rest of your electrical system can handle the higher amperage. 6 gauge wires are required for 60 amps. Also check your plug. Every thing must be rated for the same amperage. If any part of the system is under sized it will create resistance and heat and will eventually ruin you trolling motor it's self. It is possible that the problem from the start was undersized wire making resistance thus tripping the breaker. |
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Posts: 5874
| Ohms law. Smaller wire does not make resistance. It has resistance. Longer the wire, the more resistance, which causes a voltage drop at the TM, and that results in more current draw from the TM.
Lots of drop calculators available.
Here's one. Plug in 24VDC, 60A, 20 feet, and 6 and 8 ga to see the difference. That is why I recommend 6 ga. Not because 8 ga. will burn up.
http://www.supercircuits.com/resources/tools/voltage-drop-calculato...
Edited by Shep 9/4/2013 10:57 AM
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | I don't want to turn this into a b1$!? fest but by raising the over current device( circuit breaker ) to a larger size than what the wiring components are rated for creates resistance in that the components begin to fail. Be it the wire, connections,plug or what any other part as it fails the resistance increases. This is visible as heat. I understand ohms law but that is saying that said wire is in new condition at a certain temp. If your wire is undersized for the current draw the wire/ connections will heat up creating a higher resistance. If you have a quality multimeter you can test this. NEC table b310.3 # 8 is rated for 50 amps at 75degC. #6 is rated for 68 amps at the same temp rating. I'm sorry you misconstrued one small portion of my point. That being to make sure that everything in your electrical system is rated properly so as not to burn up the weakest rated component what ever that may be. Every time. And yes that includes the wire.
No matter what 8gauge wire is NOT rated for 60 amps. So yes it and anything not properly rated for the amperage WILL burn up.
Andy
State certified electrician
Edited by Trophyseeker50 9/4/2013 8:31 PM
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | Hopefully related question. Swapped trolling motor last weekend. Didn't have the proper terminal connectors on hand to wire the 6 gauge from the motor into the plug. By the way, where does one find a connector that handles the bigger wire on the one side but with a smaller ring to fit the posts inside the plug? The shrink style preferably to help with moisture resistance. Anyway for the time being I spliced the 6 ga from the motor with about 6" of the 8 ga that was already wired to the plug. Will this cause a problem? Should I wire it direct sooner than later assuming I can find the proper terminal connectors? Thanks |
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | Yes it creates the same issues. I recall an analogy my instructor used many years ago. If a fireman uses a fire hose from the hydrant for the first 200 feet and then switches to a garden hose at the end he still is limited to the volume and pressure allowed by the garden hose. Kind of cheesy but you get the point. As for the ring / fork terminals for 6 gauge wire try an electrical supply house like Graybar or Werner electric. Or better yet Grainger. Not sure if there is one in your area but they have it all. There are different size forks and rings. And you Can get the style that crimp with a standard crimper. I stock them on my service truck. I typically use heat shrink to seal the deal. Pun intended. Not sure what style plug you have but if ou need more assistance feel free. By the way be careful of the crimp connectors at Home Depot that require the ratcheting style crimper. They are great if you have the correct tool but can not be properly crimped with a standard crimper. |
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | Thanks for the advice. I figured I better change it. It's an original equipment Ranger plug. I'm not sure the heavier gauge will fit as well. Also it looks like I'll have barely enough wire. Don't know if MinnKota gives barely enough to reach or if previous owner of the motor cut back quite a bit. If it doesn't reach, at the very least can I splice more of the same size wire to get me the length or is adding the connectors a drawback as well? What do you call the terminal connector we're talking about? Will Grainger have the ones with shrink or can I just add the separate black shrink tube? Thanks! |
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | You can splice the wires as long as you use a properly rated butt splice or lug. I would see if you can find any slack in the run rather than splice if possible but if you spice properly it will be fine. We try to avoid any splices if possible due to that adding one more potential problem down the road. Make sure to shrink tube any thing you do as For the ring terminal I have attached a few pictures as well as a picture of a marineco twist lock recap that is made to receive #6 wire with no need to crimp an end on the wire. This is your best bet yet. I have one on the bow and transom.
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | I may need to pick your brain some more after I try a few things. Got to be at least a few on here who added a Terrova with the heavier gauge wire and wired it directly to there Ranger style plug and dealt with the same issue. |
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Posts: 5874
| Annex Table B310.3 specifically lists type TC, MC, MI, UF and USE cables. These are cables for underground use. Not the correct table to use here. NEC 310.17 is the correct Ampacity table to use, but it doesn't really matter if you use 310.16. Also, I recommend using Marine grade, 105 degree wire.
Size the breaker to the load, and the conductors should be sized to 125% of the load. That and voltage drop due to the length of the run is why I recommend 6 ga for the 80# TM's. Heck, I suggest it for all TM wiring. I changed my last 4 boats the week I got them.
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Posts: 5874
| The Minn Kota Plug and Recept is made by Marinco. They now have a 6 Ga adaptor for the recept side. I'm looking into the size wire on TM's. I don't have one for reference right now. Not sure if it's stamped or not on the wires. Have a call in to my friend Ed.
http://store.minnkotamotors.com/products/418633/Trolling_Motor_Plug...
As for the 4 pole Ranger style plug? TH Marine says their plug and recpet accepts 6 ga and is good for 50A. Sold at Cabelas, Bass pro and others.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Boating/Electric-Trolling-Motors/Ele...
Propster,
The breaker is not at the TM. They should be at the batteries, as you are protecting the wire between the batteries and the TM. The proper way to splice two wires is soldering them. Butt splices make a mechanical connection, and are prone to loosening over time. Plus, you need the proper crimping tool for that size splice. Solder your connections. Do not use acid core solder. Use solder and paste flux. Make sure you tin the wires first, and then clean the flux off when you are done. Then tape and/or shrink tube to seal and insulate.You can get these at Radio Shack.
Edited by Shep 9/6/2013 10:08 AM
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Posts: 15
| you can never go wrong oversizing your wire. as long as your breaker is rated lower than the ampacity of your wire, you will never burn up your wire, and you will never have to replace your wire when you get a bigger trolling motor. the minimum size wire should only be used if you can only afford that size.
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Guy's- The National Electrical Code (NEC) does not apply to a watercraft, that's clearly stated in Article 90.2.
This chart may help ->
http://www.marinco.com/page/allowable-amperage
I recommend only marine grade wire/cables - the cable has to be tinned to withstand the corrosive effects of water ingress. If you strip the insulation back, the conductors should be tinned (silver color). If they are copper colored you have the wrong type of wire for long term use in your boat. This is also a common problem with trailer wiring, e.g, use of the wrong wire type. There are many trailer wiring kits that have the wrong wire type in automotive store's etc..... Ask before you buy!
http://store.polarwire.com/browse.cfm/more-wire-and-cable/2,729.htm...
Have fun!
Al
Edited by ESOX Maniac 9/18/2013 9:56 AM
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Posts: 5874
| Al,
I would never use 10Ga to run my TM that pulls 60A, which according to that table, is allowable. There is no mention of properly sizing the conductor to the load in this link, which could cause an issue.
NEC may not apply to boats, but in my education and experience, the Ampacity Tables that I reference in NEC are a safe guide to sizing conductors. I also have always recommended Marine grade wire, that has tinned conductors as you mention.
Edited by Shep 9/18/2013 11:51 AM
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | Shep is right. 60 amps is twice the ampacity that the NEC allows. The point we are trying to make is size everything properly to avoid failure down the road.
Edited by Trophyseeker50 9/21/2013 7:44 AM
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | My point is that the NEC tables are @30C(86F) and for either 75C cable or 90C cable. There are also no derating factors for temps above 40C(104F). They are really not applicable. They also don't consider voltage drop. What temperature do you expect where the cables are run? I never said you should use #10AWG.
My appology- I posted the wrong link, here's a better link with greater detail. Yes, I also use the NEC every day!
Start reading here ->
http://www.delzer.com/actuant/globalmarinecatalog/index.html#198/z
All factors need to be taken into account. If the batteries are in the back and the 60A rated TM is on the front of a 15-20' boat maybe you should consider #4AWG.
For what its worth!
Al
Edited by ESOX Maniac 9/21/2013 8:47 AM
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Posts: 5874
| Al, no you never said to run 10Ga. But the tables posted, and those following your link imply that 6 is good to 120A! 10 is good to 60A. While the NEC tables do not strictly apply, they are certainly more conservative in allowable current for a given wire size. And that is why I use them as a guide. I would never use the tables in the link as a guide.
I have posted wire loss tables and links many times, and suggest you take all in to consideration when selecting the proper wire for your application. |
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Shep - Did you try the new link?
Have fun!
Al |
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Posts: 5874
| Al, yes, I did. But if you look at Table D on Page 201, that is an Ampacity Chart. 10ga = 60A??!!
Again, I'm not going split hairs here. I use NEC as a conservative guide, and am not implying it is the Code or standard for Marine use. If you use it that way, and take Voltage drop into consideration, you can't go wrong on selecting the proper wire size. |
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