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Location: eagle river,wis | Things don't change when the guys who want it to change leave, and the guys left are the ones that don't see the reasons to change.
John,maybe its time the ones left should step down and let the ones who want change to step up and try to improve it.The international will never get any better until they hire an executive directer and run this conservation group as a business.
jeff miller
region 2 rep. |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Muskiefool - 3/22/2012 11:59 PM
To me whining about what some international is doing with my dues is like arguing with a waitress over how she'll spend the tip I give her. QUOTE]
But if I found out the tip i give her goes to drugs, I wouldnt go back to that establishment. When I know that my money goes to International, where it essentially gets wasted, I choose not to spend that money.
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| I personally like see the magazine as a benefit of membership, I really don’t see anyone here defending it. The magazine provides a bigger picture of the Musky fishing world. I believe it helps unify all of the local chapters to a common purpose. I am happy to read printed material, after spending 8-9 hours a day staring at a computer for work the last thing I want to do is read a magazine online. In my head (my personal value) the breakdown of my $35 membership is as follows: $12 for the magazine ($2 per issue, use to be worth $24), $8 for the lure log and website access, $5 for overhead (processing the applications, insurance, and other organizational fees), and then the remainder actually used for funding of programs. The website holds great value with the wealth of information it contains. I also use the membership to get 10% off at our local tackle store so in my head I make out on the membership.
I usually drop at least $15 into the raffles at our local member meetings, and $60-$100 at the fundraiser. I know that this money will be used locally for our stocking program. The amount of information I get from the local chapter members is worth every dollar I give to the club.
This is all coming from a younger member, 30, who has been a member for 3 years. I think the Keyes Outdoors advertising is worth a try for a year. It at least gets the word out. I would have never joined or known about the club if I didn’t meet a friend of a friend of a friend at a party.
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Posts: 134
| I've been a member of Muskie,Inc. since 1982. Besides all the fishery benefits, club outings, tournaments, etc,etc,etc. you people are missing the biggest benefit of this organization (including its faults) and that is the FRIENDSHIPS one aquires as a member. Working together on common causes is the joy of what has bonded us together. I would have never met the people I have as life long friends if it wasn't for this organization. |
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| Is membership growing, stagnant or declining at this point. I guess that would answer if MI needs to change or not. |
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Location: Elgin, IL | Guest - 3/23/2012 8:17 AM
Maybe I just have a different philosophy than some, but to me you don't walk away from an organization that has done, and continues to do so much for the muskie fishery because you don't agree with some internal workings.
For people to actually say they won't join because they don't like the magazine, or think it's a waste are looking for an excuse not to participate.
To take a stand against all that the organization does for the muskie fishery, and muskie fishermen, by not joining over issues that you can't control unless you participate in the membership to me doesn't make sense.
John Skarie
FM Chapter
This is so well put John. It's only $35. If only $15 goes toward local stocking, that's still $15 that wouldn't go there otherwise.
I belong to Chapter 39, great bunch of folks who do a great job for the kids here, and the fishery. You couldn't find a better group of folks trying to make this thing better. The Fox Chain here in Illinois has some quality fish in it, despite the pressure it gets and the abuse. I believe that the SOB Chapter has done a great job here also.
While I get a chance to fish The Chain once in awhile, I'm proud to see how well it's doing with our help. MI may not be perfect....but I sure am glad to know the folks behind what's going on here locally. Nice job guys and gals.
Mark Hoerich
I also wanted to add that it's been a really good discussion, thanks. Good to see all sides, and maybe it will help.
Edited by Northwind Mark 3/23/2012 10:50 AM
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Posts: 462
Location: Syracuse, Indiana | Steve, Joe - I have no issue with the "fresh air", but don't know whether every MI officer reads this board. I am merely suggesting further communication as a good thing. Many people whine, but few get involved (not just in MI, but throughout life). If those wanting change refuse to get involved (or as Jeff stated "step down"), and if those wanting "the old ways" would take control, what do you think the outcome would be? Jeff - "The international will never get any better until they hire an executive directer and run this conservation group as a business." AMEN! Dave Cates
Edited by dcates 3/23/2012 11:08 AM
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Location: Lino Lakes, MN | Fat- Ski,
I hope to meet up with you at the next T.C. Chapter meeting.
Thrax,
I will definitly see you on the water- Maybee share the boat for a few hours as well. Are you coming down for the MN Muskie Expo?
As someone mentioned- FRIENDASHIPS are one of the biggest benefits of being a member / or working closely with the chapters. You know if they are attending muskies inc meetings they have a sharred interest with you.
Good Luck
Steve |
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| You don't need to be a member of International to get all the benefits of local chapters. Basically, as I see it, what you get from International is a magazine (which I'm pretty indifferent about), access to the Lunge Log (doesn't matter to me as I figure there's more misinformation in there than truth), and an outdated website. As far as moving the sport forward, I see that being more the result of local chapters and a few devoted people than a result of International exerting influence.
So, for me, the only incentive to joining international is to say I'm a member of Muskies, Inc., International. To me, my "petty" desire to not give a cent to Mike Keyes far outweighs that "benefit" in my mind. I will contribute and participate at the local level and leave it at that until Keyes is no longer sponsored by International.
Good discussion, though.
Chris |
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| I think most of us agree that the $35 could be better spent, and that support from International is marginal at best. I've heard time and time again that everything that gets accomplished gets accomplished at the club level. That said, I can't see the $35 being a deal breaker for current or potential new members. When you've got 300 lures hanging in your garage at $20/pop, 4-5 combos at $500 each, a $40k boat, and a $40k truck, $200 rain gear, plus all the electronics and tools, and you spend thousands a gear on gas and trips, looking at what happens to $35 and using that as a reason not to join MI? Really? How many times has $35 would up in a tree or at the bottom of the lake? How many times has $35 vanished at the bar, leaving you with nothing to show for it but a hangover?
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| yah pretty funny imo guys would use $35 as the excuse not to join but every one of those guys has at least 10 x that in lures that never see the water year in and year out
funny stuff. |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | The Executive Director approach was something I initially supported but later realized this represents a chicken and the egg challenge that will prohibit someone being successful with that role at MI the way the budget is structured today.
Specifically, a Director would have to do some major fundraising to meet his/her personal and organizational objectives. They would be competing with conservation organizations for the same dollars, say DU, Trout, etc. The funds they seek come from granting sources that require the organization to demonstrate how the funds have been used historically to meet the organizations objective and the organization has to meet a low ratio of their annual budget being directed to administrative expense. A good ratio will be well into the 90% range. I don't know our budget because we keep it a big secret but I suspect our ratio would be well under 20% and undesirable to granting organizations. So if this person can’t raise funds, they can’t pay their own salary and MI doesn’t have funds available to staff the role with current budget.
There is a way to get the role staffed though, albeit at a later date. All we have to do is dramatically reduce the expenses in the International budget and reallocate those dollars to projects that meet MI organizational objectives. The best way to do that would be to provide it as qualifying grants to chapters. After a few years of this under the belt, MI would have achieved a track record of meeting objectives with a low administrative expense ratio, thereby enabling MI to qualify for grants and fund an Executive Director role. To achieve this, the old guard will have to give up their sacred cow in order to drastically reduce expenses.
As I said in an earlier post, with this approach you will get a big increase in membership ( the first substantial increase in many years) from those that don’t want to join today because they can’t see their $35 membership delivering on the organizations objectives.
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| Northwind Mark - 3/23/2012 10:41 AM
Guest - 3/23/2012 8:17 AM
Maybe I just have a different philosophy than some, but to me you don't walk away from an organization that has done, and continues to do so much for the muskie fishery because you don't agree with some internal workings.
For people to actually say they won't join because they don't like the magazine, or think it's a waste are looking for an excuse not to participate.
To take a stand against all that the organization does for the muskie fishery, and muskie fishermen, by not joining over issues that you can't control unless you participate in the membership to me doesn't make sense.
John Skarie
FM Chapter
This is so well put John. It's only $35. If only $15 goes toward local stocking, that's still $15 that wouldn't go there otherwise.
Mark Hoerich
I also wanted to add that it's been a really good discussion, thanks. Good to see all sides, and maybe it will help.
Problem is that hardly any of the $35 goes to any kind of local support. And electing not to take the magazine for $10 less in dues only makes this worse. It's pretty much a fixed cost to publish the magazine, so no savings to MI if you don't take the mag. |
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Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | Sorgy - 3/23/2012 11:15 AM
Fat- Ski,
I hope to meet up with you at the next T.C. Chapter meeting.
Thrax,
I will definitly see you on the water- Maybee share the boat for a few hours as well. Are you coming down for the MN Muskie Expo?
As someone mentioned- FRIENDASHIPS are one of the biggest benefits of being a member / or working closely with the chapters. You know if they are attending muskies inc meetings they have a sharred interest with you.
Good Luck
Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Steve -
I tried to PM you but it didn't work for some reason. I will be at both the expo and the next TC meeting.
thanks
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Location: Elgin, IL |
"Problem is that hardly any of the $35 goes to any kind of local support."
Shep, is that fact or a guess? I honestly don't know myself. I don't ask.
I only know what I see. An MI Club with really good folks, doing a great job with youth outings, fund raisers, and a really good healthy local muskie population.
And I like that. I don't help out enough myself....I hope to change that soon.
I really doubt that these things happen without the club or it's members.
Edited by Northwind Mark 3/23/2012 12:38 PM
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| FAT-SKI
hang out at the bar upstairs after the TC meeting thats where you get all the hot topic info 'unplugged' |
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| Northwind Mark - 3/23/2012 12:37 PM
"Problem is that hardly any of the $35 goes to any kind of local support."
Shep, is that fact or a guess? I honestly don't know myself. I don't ask.
I only know what I see. An MI Club with really good folks, doing a great job with youth outings, fund raisers, and a really good healthy local muskie population.
And I like that. I don't help out enough myself....I hope to change that soon.
I really doubt that these things happen without the club or it's members.
Ask your local officers how much they get back from your dues.
In the Milw. Chapter, all of our local support came from our fund raisers. When we asked the Intl for help funding Dr. Anderson's Pewaukee Lake Muskie Research, we were turned down. Not 1 cent.
Being a MI member is great. It can be very rewarding, you meet lots of new fishing partners and friends, can learn alot, and join in some interesting and rewarding projects. But it's the local chapters that make it what it is. IMO.
Edited by Shep 3/23/2012 1:20 PM
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Location: Okoboji | bn - 3/23/2012 11:53 AM
yah pretty funny imo guys would use $35 as the excuse not to join but every one of those guys has at least 10 x that in lures that never see the water year in and year out
funny stuff.
it's their buisness dont worry about how they spend their money that is some of the problem is the "only 35 dollars comment" |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | My personal point is and will be that membership isn't necessary for me to feel good about personally supporting a local chapter. If all membership gets me is the magazine and website access, and a significant amount of the money goes where it's going now, I'll choose to give the $35 to the chapter I choose in tickets for a raffle, or other support at a meeting. And I may give that chapter quite a bit more in time, effort, dollars, and editorial support.
Guilt tripping me won't work. I believe in Muskies Inc, I believe in the clubs, and I believe the organization is effective as individual clubs...but I also believe the International 'model' is archaic and is busted, and needs repair. I believe Print is dying and cable TV won't be replacing the advertising ROI anytime soon...look at the recent implosion of NAFC and the decline of In Fish as an indicator.
I'll give my money to the chapter or chapters of my choice.
It isn't the amount of money at all. It's what I choose to spend it on within the Muskies Inc organization.
And I have absolutely no intention of joining so I can run for office. No time, and little interest in the process as a result. The VAST number of membership share the same or similar stance, heck, darned few even show up for meetings by ratio. I respect and admire those who do have the time and use it working within MI. Doesn't mean that's me at this point in my life.
One last thing, what I saw happen the other day convinced me the disconnect is pretty severe. A promotional company paid by MI publicly and with intent to harm blasts another company that frequently donates to Chapters fund raisers and is listed as a gold supporter of MI, and no comment or apology public or private from either the folks who paid the promotional company(MI International), or the company itself when the conversation blew up. A PR snafu that will cost MI members and already has, and no one says or does a thing to apologize or smooth the waters. I checked. I even received comments from MI members that we should not allow folks to address the situation here. Odd that I also got the exact opposite, demanding we DO encourage debate from the same folks when it was Native American spearing that was the issue at hand. The source of both issues was Facebook. Why bring this up? Because it was out there, lots of folks saw it, harm to a company that benefits MI was the intent and that from a company that is paid MI funds to promote MI, and no one has even checked to see how angry/hurt/ indifferent the target of the rant is. It can't be undone, but an apology might be in order and then maybe those of us less than happy with this can see past it. I have no personal issues with any of the folks involved, but will stand by the concept that if MI is going to invest in an advertising/promotional relationship using a portion of 'our' money, they need to manage that PR program throughout the relationship, answer for any untoward behavior, and reap the fallout with the benefits. That's just good business.
Dave, I agree, perhaps all the MI officers don't visit here. However, I know how many muskie anglers DO visit here yearly, and it's multiples of more than 50 times the entire MI membership in absolute unique visitors. What's said gets read by a significant sample of the Muskie angling public, and recruiting here isn't a bad idea. There' s 328 folks online here right now. It's a pretty significant community.
We'd be happy to support the efforts of the International, and will never charge MI a penny. No one has ever asked, and in fact, we've offered, more than once. |
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Location: Syracuse, Indiana | sworrall - 3/23/2012 2:34 PM My personal point is and will be that membership isn't necessary for me to feel good about personally supporting a local chapter. If all membership gets me is the magazine and website access, and a significant amount of the money goes where it's going now, I'll choose to give the $35 to the chapter I choose in tickets for a raffle, or other support at a meeting. And I may give that chapter quite a bit more in time, effort, dollars, and editorial support. While I disagree with your premise as to the totality of the benefit of being an MI member, I absolutely respect your right to choose where you spend your money. To the extent you support your local chapter(s), thank you. Guilt tripping me won't work. I believe in Muskies Inc, I believe in the clubs, and I believe the organization is effective as individual clubs...but I also believe the International 'model' is archaic and is busted, and needs repair. I believe Print is dying and cable TV won't be replacing the advertising ROI anytime soon...look at the recent implosion of NAFC and the decline of In Fish as an indicator. I'll give my money to the chapter or chapters of my choice. It isn't the amount of money at all. It's what I choose to spend it on within the Muskies Inc organization. And I have absolutely no intention of joining so I can run for office. No time, and little interest in the process as a result. The VAST number of membership share the same or similar stance, heck, darned few even show up for meetings by ratio. Busted? There are folks working on that. Thankfully. Let me tell you, change is tough to accomplish. That said, unless numbers have changed dramatically in the last couple of years, the vast majority of MI members want the magazine. Does MI disenfranchise most of our members to move forward, or try to work to move them along too? Interesting question. I respect and admire those who do have the time and use it working within MI. Doesn't mean that's me at this point in my life. One last thing, what I saw happen the other day convinced me the disconnect is pretty severe. A promotional company paid by MI publicly and with intent to harm blasts another company that frequently donates to Chapters fund raisers and is listed as a gold supporter of MI, and no comment or apology public or private from either the folks who paid the promotional company(MI International), or the company itself when the conversation blew up. A PR snafu that will cost MI members and already has, and no one says or does a thing to apologize or smooth the waters. I checked. I even received comments from MI members that we should not allow folks to address the situation here. Odd that I also got the exact opposite, demanding we DO encourage debate from the same folks when it was Native American spearing that was the issue at hand. The source of both issues was Facebook. I am regularly chastised by my 25-year-old son for not checking Facebook. Evidence of change, I know. That said, I have no clue what you are referencing. Dave, I agree, perhaps all the MI officers don't visit here. However, I know how many muskie anglers DO visit here yearly, and it's multiples of more than 50 times the entire MI membership in absolute unique visitors. What's said gets read by a significant sample of the Muskie angling public, and recruiting here isn't a bad idea. There' s 328 folks online here right now. It's a pretty significant community. We'd be happy to support the effort, and will never charge MI a penny. No one has ever asked, and in fact, we've offered, more than once. I'd love M1st to be a bigger player in the MI world. That said, I'm not a player anymore (and that's ok - time for others to have the reins). I do find the present set of officers responsive to my inquiries. I suggest communicating with them(and for them to communicate with you) and seeing if anything beneficial for the resource can be achieved. Were I more computer savvy, this post would be more "readable". There is a reason I employ secretaries.  Dave Cates
Edited by dcates 3/23/2012 2:53 PM
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Location: 31 | Luke_Chinewalker - 3/23/2012 12:01 PM I don't know our budget because we keep it a big secret but I suspect our ratio would be well under 20% and undesirable to granting organizations. How's it going Joe, why is the budget kept secret?
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Location: Syracuse, Indiana | Jerry, Joe. - The budget is not a secret. It is available to members on the web site. Committees. Finance. |
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| I heard that recent evidence shows the MI international was the second gunman on JFK!!! |
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| They say all publicity is good...H |
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| Ask yourself who's doing the work to get more lakes, support the research, do the political legwork so you dont have too, stock fish, line up boots on the ground for conservation of Muskie waters, protect the fishery, support education for students, get interest from young people though tournaments and going out to them and showing them the value of fish and clean water, devoting countless hours to the very thing you say you love, protecting habitat; spawning areas and lakeshore, working with watershed groups and other conservation groups, putting people in the Capitol so your fish dont end up on a stick, and doing all this through their own hard work and generosity. Is it You? Is it something you support? Is a Magazine or something less important all it takes for you to be against all of the work MI does? Is a bucktail more important than the fish? The international through Dave Narsett and Keven Richards made many phone calls and spread the word when MN was having legislative problem a couple years ago, I was incredible appreciative as everyone should be. How important, valuable and powerful is MI and the MMPA? They with so few members have created the best Muskie fishery in the US and arguably the world. How? because we dont let things like this keep us from doing the work to make your trips on the water in MN potentially the best there has ever been. I dont see MI chapters or the MMPA peeing their money away, every dollar you spend at the Banquets and Tournaments goes to make things better; the $35.00 part is nothing to me when I see what guys like Frank Schneider jr., Dave Overland, Al Skaar, Hugh Becker, George Selke and many of the posters have given through Muskies Inc and the MMPA on this thread. Its a vehicle. Just think if all of us were in tow. If your not a MI member, I would say you can feel very good about donating to your local chapter and at least getting them some support in the bank or on the ground. Everyone is looking for a 8 second ride, good luck. We just keep moving the picnic table with the glacier; and the results are in the bottom of your net.
Edited by Muskiefool 3/23/2012 6:48 PM
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | bn - 3/23/2012 11:53 AM
yah pretty funny imo guys would use $35 as the excuse not to join but every one of those guys has at least 10 x that in lures that never see the water year in and year out
funny stuff.
I figure this was aimed at me. It's not the money, I have the money. It's a statement about who I choose to give it to. I do fully plan (and please hold me to this) to find a way to donate money and even some time (I love the FRV kids fishing derby) to the club that I was a part of. |
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| That really wasn't directed at anyone in particular, Andrew. I came to that realization after a pretty lengthy discussion with some of our board members, where this same topic was discussed. On the way home I kept thinking "Why am I giving MI $35/year for them to spend it all on a magazine that nobody wants, when I could give another $35 to the club and actually see it put to use for things like the kids fishing derby, the youth outings, the Shabbona muskie rescue, the awards banquet, or any number of other things that are more in line with MI's objectives, that actually bring new people to the sport and provide better fishing opportunities?!" I was contemplating letting my membership lapse after that. Then I came home and looked around the basement and I thought... "Rods, reels, net, tools, rain gear, tackle boxes, lures on top of lures on top of lures... And I'm worried about $35?" |
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