|
|
Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Anonymous - 11/18/2011 12:10 PM
Pointerpride102 - 11/18/2011 1:06 PM
I actually like the twin cities area, especially to see a Wild game. The area around the arena is top notch and really enjoyable. The inflatable football stadium is pretty lame though.
Once again, what does this have to do with fishing a cisco spawn?
Probably as much as your post. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What a thread leads to a thread leads to....no one is twisting your arm making you read this
Lambeau, YOU misunderstand. Don't bother learning contrast, that's fine. Folks like Jason Lucas, Buck perry, the Lindners, Sosin and Clark, and a number of others must be morons.
It does matter to some, not to others. As I said, I like to know WHY...and be able to recreate a pattern later, not just listen to someone who says " they are biting on Orange now" and hope nothing changed. As the fish move up and down in the water column, the light...and available color...changes quite a bit. So your 'it doesn't matter' is yours, not mine.
---
Sounds like a chart, and possibly a great article. How did you build those classifications, and why does a particular lure fall into one or the other? Why/when/how do you choose what color classification to throw? Also, are there variations within the three classifications? Tell us about those variations and how they impact your color choice.
Seriously, I think you're full of it. I invite you to prove me wrong.
---
Happy to.
There are basically three classifications of 'color' down there under most conditions. Dark, Medium, and Light. Ever hear the old axiom (proven time and time again) dark day, dark lure? Ever dissect that? It was originally from Jason Lucas, and has been used for decades to describe contrast. OK, let's break that down. On a dark day, why is it 'dark'? Clouds. Which way do esocids look for prey because of eye placement and host of other reasons? Up. If the fish is looking up and the lure is in the portion of the water column that axiom was formed upon, the sky is the background. If it's cloudy, that background is white to grey. A dark lure will contrast nicely, medium not as well, and light color disappear. SOP to fish above the fish, not in or below them. Why? because they look up. Pretty important the fish can see your presentation. Not the end all, but well documented as important to maximize the trigger that creates a strike response.
OK, so what's with the 'light day light lure' deal? Has to do with the prism effect water has, refracting light and absorbing it as heat energy. Most already know this from swimming and seeing a rainbow, but don't correlate it to color and contrast. The deeper one goes at high noon (time of day variable, sun angle. Late and early most light skips off the surface, reflected back up) in perfectly clear water (variable, particulate has a big effect) on a calm day (variable, waves break up the light) the DARKER violet the surface becomes due to the other colors being taken out and the only remaining being a very 'short' band which penetrates better. The background (sky) becomes quite dark, against which a nice chartreuse lure contrasts nicely. Orange with a red base becomes a muddy grey, contrasting poorly. orange with a yellow base penetrates better, and is lighter grey, but still doesn't contrast as well as chartreuse.
OK, dark day, dark lure light day light lure explained. Sosin and Clark, Through the Fishes Eye. Nice read. No one cared, and it's out of print. Oh well.
Now add the fact that muskies cannot see color about 2/3 of the time due to lack of light underwater and eye function, and you add another dimension. the fishes eye has two types of light receptors, rod and cone. Cones allow color vision, rods very sensitive low light, but all black and white. The rods begin extending as the sun lowers in the sky on a clock basis that has nothing to do with the seasons, daylight length, etc, and cones begin to extend in the morning. In the transition period, which takes a considerable amount of time, color is pretty much irrelevant as the fish sees only black and white and tones of grey. Once the light begins to actually penetrate the surface, most fishes can see color...but that is a long way from dawn and seeing color well above the surface with our mammalian eyes.
So... much of the time, even is sunny conditions with reasonably high light, very little color remains 10' down. All that is left is contrast, and that is a fact. In lakes where the p[articulate is high, weeds won't even grow deeper than a few feet. That's because weeds need light to photosynthesize.
Now take the lure down in 20'. All but blue, a tiny amount of yellow, and violet are gone MOST of the day and all color gone the rest, even in relatively clear water, which everyone will tell you is tougher to fish than reasonably turbid water. Now contrast is even more important, and the background is no longer the sky...it's the water column void. Under those conditions, I throw black. ALWAYS contrasts, as it represents a total lack of reflected light. In fact, most folks who have looked into this carefully will tell you that when in doubt, throw black. Black contrasts no matter what, but at times is not the optimum.
White is the total presence of all the colors. place a thin coat of fluorescent over white, and it for all intents and purposes, allows the reflection of the surface coat better than any other coating for a number of reasons. That's why white is the base used for fluorescent colors. Use those colors top extend, just a bit, the visibility in turbid or darker conditions.
I use colors I have looked at in very low light and are dark against light backgrounds. I use colors I have looked at in very low light and are light against dark backgrounds. In the first couple feet, I apply Jason Lucas's advice.
Of course, there's lots more, but I'm headed out to check another stand up in the National Forest past Ashland, and my son thinks I am crazy sitting here on a keyboard.
jbush, this place is about exchanging information and ideas, and talking (debating, sometimes) about them. You may always use your mouse to look elsewhereif that bothers you. I'm personally glad it doesn't bother most folks. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | It is possible to catch fish and not report them to everyone. Fish reporting isn't required by law.
Edited by Pointerpride102 11/18/2011 3:34 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 53
Location: Elk River,MN | Thank you for taking the time to disect all of those variables Steve. I learned something. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1058
Location: Medford, WI | I learned something as well (didn't read all the color info yet).....that when my sixth grade students arguing all day drives me insane, I can come on here and chuckle at the arguing going on by adults. Thanks for these posts - I do appreciate it.
Personally (and that's not many years experience), I believe that color is a factor, but I believe it is one of the last factors I think about. Location, location, location, action of lure, how you work lure (speed, pauses, twitch, etc.), and then color.
Anyways...with that many cisco around, you can still catch the fish. As mentioned by some, find the spawning spots and fish them.
Have a great weekend everyone...safe hunting and fishing...I'm off to the Packers game!
-Jake
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1168
| Pointerpride102 - 11/18/2011 4:31 PM
It is possible to catch fish and not report them to everyone. Fish reporting isn't required by law.
Shhhhh!! You might hurt the feelings of the photo analysis experts. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | If trolling was legal on the water, I would start by hooking on a 10 inch Jake or Slammer and trolling right through the schools of Ciscos. I'd keep trying different colors until I either got tired of changing lures, actually caught something or it was time to go home.
I personally like the really cool colors that stand out or make it look like a person knows what they are doing. A basic black, white or perch color may catch fish, but a super-flashy gold lure looks cool. One has to think about appearance you know.  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2361
| Sworrall made a valid point that seems to have been overlooked. Switching the same lure to one of another color does not prove one color better. It could very well be the lure's pressure signature. I note that rubber is often hooked in various ways, sometimes with a slight hump and othertimes seems fairly well aligned. Plastic lures have variable lip eye hook placements, damage, over time. All these things can cause a variation in vibrations and sonic signature for the lure.
To actually prove color was the difference you would have to not only switch lures, but also do it in multiples, perhaps two or three times, ie changing mag dogs to white black, then trying a new white black and a third white black and being more successful than your partners orange green, orange green, and orange green(or any three mixed colors).
However after giving Sworrall this point, I have no doubt that there is a best color, and that the whole idea of best color would be fairly easy to prove, if one could get adequate repetitions. I would be dumfounded if this were not proven true.
|
|
| |
|
| Actually there, all of God's creatures have to eat at some point to stay alive....therefore it is imperative that in order to catch and release said creature, he be in position with as many baits as possible when the creature eats. Color of said bait need not matter, for hunger will spur this animal, or fish in this example, on, to fulfill and fortify itself there.
|
|
| |
|
| It does matter to some, not to others. As I said, I like to know WHY...and be able to recreate a pattern later, not just listen to someone who says " they are biting on Orange now" and hope nothing changed. my point was that it's possible to get too caught up with interesting minutiae. you love that kind of stuff, so i'm betting you'll agree that it hooks you. i agree it's interesting, just not that everything interesting leads to catching more fish. it's the part of actually fishing that leads to catching more fish. there are waaaaaaay too many variables at work to try and predict which particular color will work best at a later date. Lucas' "bright day - bright lure, dark day - dark lure" formula works much better because it simplifies all of that down into something easy to remember and easy to use. and in those Lindner's F+L+P=Success formula color is just one small part of the presentation considerations. you want contrast? hold the lure up to the sky and ask yourself if it stands out...and then "present" the #*^@ thing by making it MOVE.
Edited by lambeau 11/21/2011 3:29 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8781
| I took a bunch of DDD's, lined them up together and photographed them under varying levels of light, and against varying color backgrounds. The results were surprising to say the least. The ones that are most visible in bright light are not always the ones that are most visible as light dwindles. And viewing them against a back, white, or blue background changes their visibility quite a lot, too. In this particular case, I don't believe that color is the be all end all.
You have to consider feeding behavior, and where and how those fish are likely to relate to giant schools of cisco. Since there is an abundant source of food right on front of them, I'd suggest that WHERE you put the lure and how you work the lure is much more important. As with any predator, they're going to go for the easy meal, that is right in front of them, and requires as little energy output as possible to attack and eat. This might not be the best approach, but I'd pick a lure with a big profile, something that can be twitched or ripped with some pauses thrown in, or a pull-pause retrieve. It's fall. Feeding windows are short. You may encounter a few agressive smaller fish in the middle of the school, but I'd be looking on the outside edges of the schools for the big fish that aren't quite ready to feed, but will pounce on an easy meal that's in front of their faces.
Oh, and color might not be the most important factor, but the muskies are there eating ciscoes. I'd probably start with something that looks like a cisco. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 49
| esoxaddict - 11/21/2011 3:51 PM
You have to consider feeding behavior, and where and how those fish are likely to relate to giant schools of cisco. Since there is an abundant source of food right on front of them, I'd suggest that WHERE you put the lure and how you work the lure is much more important. As with any predator, they're going to go for the easy meal, that is right in front of them, and requires as little energy output as possible to attack and eat. This might not be the best approach, but I'd pick a lure with a big profile, something that can be twitched or ripped with some pauses thrown in, or a pull-pause retrieve. It's fall. Feeding windows are short. You may encounter a few agressive smaller fish in the middle of the school, but I'd be looking on the outside edges of the schools for the big fish that aren't quite ready to feed, but will pounce on an easy meal that's in front of their faces.
Oh, and color might not be the most important factor, but the muskies are there eating ciscoes. I'd probably start with something that looks like a cisco.
Yep........I like this answer the best........and like maybe a 9" Grandma in holoform chrome/silver. Or a chrome Depthraider with a weighted leader......or a white Medusa and let it flutter around a little.
Also nice to see Cliffie checking in......lol.
Edited by Jolly Roger 11/21/2011 4:53 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | l, you live in a different universe than the fish. Holding the lure up to the sky is not going to get it done.
The cisco may not be the most visible critter down there. And, they will be displaying shoaling behavior. I'd use a lure that stands out against the background really well, get it a couple feet above where the muskies should be, and make sure the action stands out from the crowd even more than normal. I've had the opportunity to do this with Pike while watching the reaction. It's more than interesting minutiae.
lambeau as I said, you may not bother. I do. And I will continue to. it's incumbent on us to learn as much as is possible about our quarry and the environment in which they live, so we can maximise our chances to get a strike. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Shoaling behavior:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=10lElCT7v5wC&oi=fnd&pg=P...
Not moving on to shallow structure at all. The behavior those ciscos will be displaying will be markedly different than what the lure COULD. That was the point.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 994
Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | Why does it always take giant ""PP rubbing contest" to get down to getting some serious usable Fishing information out? Does it always have to be at someone else's expense? We all love to fish, all are at different levels of learning and expertise. Doesn't mean that one or another is more of the "absolute authority." It should mean in my opinion, that those with the expertise are understanding of those not at that level YET. Also knowing that ANYONE can "Regurgitate" the text book information. !!
This is a great site and is often undermined by heavy handed tatics by a few. Happy Thanksgiving ya all!! Jake |
|
| |
|
Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | jakejusa - 11/23/2011 11:55 AM
Why does it always take giant ""PP rubbing contest" to get down to getting some serious usable Fishing information out? Does it always have to be at someone else's expense? We all love to fish, all are at different levels of learning and expertise. Doesn't mean that one or another is more of the "absolute authority." It should mean in my opinion, that those with the expertise are understanding of those not at that level YET. Also knowing that ANYONE can "Regurgitate" the text book information. !!
This is a great site and is often undermined by heavy handed tatics by a few. Happy Thanksgiving ya all!! Jake
What is a PP rubbing contest?
Would this thread have gone down the road it has without me posting? I doubt it.
So, you're welcome.  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I learned that stuff years ago due to an incurable curiosity, and spent a decade working on presentations for fishing clubs and the like where I can actually show the audience what happens to color as the light goes down. The idea is to get the thought process going and ask the question some of the folks here seem to cringe at...WHY??
I had an underwater sounds piece I presented to over 50 clubs in the 80's and early 90's produced in a pool with a reel to reel, and you probably have heard some of the hydrophone stuff I have published here, I didn't do all that to impress anyone, I did it to offer some interesting material to the folks visiting here and spur some thought in the process.
Curiosity serves the angler and hunter well.
By the way, I have no textbooks in the camper up in the National Forest. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, but I do expect that some will think about what's being said, and maybe do a little research. Mark Sosin got me into this, and I had the distinct pleasure of talking with him at ICAST about it two years ago. It was a treat.
I'm exchanging and offering ideas and actually hope to spur reasonable debate. We've been at that here on this board for over a decade, and I won't offer a single apology for spending alot of time trying to learn everything I can about our quarry. If one person clicked on the 'shoaling behavior' link, I'm happy.
Understanding shoaling behavior in large schools of fish helps one understand why the outer edges of the school are where a number of the larger predators feed. Someone will zig when they shoulda zagged out there on the edge, and it's far less confusing to the predator.
I was lucky enough to have all the equipment at Nicolet College to mess with in the process of looking in to sound and light under water back in 1980. I bet a couple folks here have even seen that seminar.
Pointer has a degree in fisheries, and works in the field, so from that standpoint, he's light years ahead of me. He also obviously loves a spirited debate, and when he tosses out the bait, he usually ends up catching the intended prey. Don't bite, if you don't want to engage. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | If we ranked the most important aspects of catching muskies, I doubt perceived color (which is theoretical) at a given depth would break the top 20. There are guides (most, I'd bet) who couldn't tell you what color a yellow-based orange contrasts best with at 20 feet under overcast skies, yet they boat in excess of 300 fish a year. Hard to argue that it makes that big of a difference if guys can produce like that without knowing anything about it. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | knooter - 11/23/2011 6:52 PM
If we ranked the most important aspects of catching muskies, I doubt perceived color (which is theoretical) at a given depth would break the top 20. There are guides (most, I'd bet) who couldn't tell you what color a yellow-based orange contrasts best with at 20 feet under overcast skies, yet they boat in excess of 300 fish a year. Hard to argue that it makes that big of a difference if guys can produce like that without knowing anything about it.
You are probably right, but how many days are those guys on the water? I'd bet if many on here could put the time in on the water that they do, they would also boat a ton of fish per year. That isn't rocket appliances. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If guides know what colors work under which conditions and have it nailed down on the waters they guide as some do because of extreme time on the water, they will catch more fish than those who do not. And, what happens to color in water is not theoretical in the least, it's absolute and should be something all muskie anglers understand. The fish's eye is also well understood, with the exception of Dr. Jerry Bucholtz's hypothesis which I personally feel is correct, but that's me and I have not been able to prove it.
I was guiding full time when I became curious, and proved out quite a few ideas I had. I caught a bunch of fish, and the main why of that was because I fished every day, pretty much. Learned a lot out there. I don't expect everyone here to know my history, but I also don't much care who thinks I fish and who doesn't.
Got my first Guide license when Wisconsin was still handing out buttons. There were fewer Muskie guides in MN than there was at the time in Boulder Junction, WI alone. Times change, guides and the fish pretty much don't. I still buy a license every year, but the business has me running computer/camera/electronic equipment most days now, and I don't regret it a bit. I'm having the time of my life with this job.
I truly can't wait for ice. That is a laboratory for me.
Tell me...why is Firetiger so popular as a bait color? Why is black so popular? What are the weaknesses of any hard bait color pattern? Why is that not an issue with spinners? Why do muskies generally try to take a bait from the side? Why are figure 8s so effective? Why is chrome not the best choice most times? Where is the blind spot in the muskie's vision field? What is the issue with a lure perceived with only one eye generating a strike response? Why doesn't a bait presented below a muskie get as much response as one presented above?
All of these things and more rely upon the Muskie seeing the lure. I'd say it's pretty important to make sure the fish has the best chance possible at doing just that. And I truly don't get it why so many people are resistant to at least considering all of this. This ain't just me talking here....I learned the basics from some of the best out there in fresh water and salt and the supporting literature is extensive.
Not everyone can spend every waking moment on the water. I was lucky enough to do just that for years.
What does all of this have to do with the original question? ALLOT.
And, if you want to catch lots of big muskies, go where there are lots of them. If you want to guide big muskies and catch lots of them, guide LOTS where there are lots of them. Think about that. Talent is important, but a well versed muskie angler who knows how to control a boat, read the water, find the fish, and get the client's lure in front of the fish is going to do pretty well. Add some additional knowledge to the arsenal and put them on waters that have exceptional opportunity and they will do even better. And so it goes. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 531
Location: Hugo, MN | Steve, no doubt these are interesting topics for some, myself included. Most guys could care less what happens to their firetiger pattern in deep water. Trial and error determines color selection for most guys on the water.
Getting back to Pointer's statement that color doesn't much matter, I think he's right, to a degree. There are so many more important considerations in lure selection and presentation than color. Case in point, I was fishing Lake Vermilion with a friend who guides up there. We were using a big shad body rigged up as a jig. There was one bait that had a different feel to it, and it produced all the follows and both of the strikes that day. My dad had that bait, I had an identical bait, rigged more or less the same, yet when retrieved I could feel the difference. Fast forward to this fall, using the same style baits, I had the one with the best vibration, and got bit on the first spot of the day. Our color selection was the same. All 3 of us throwing combinations of brown, gold and white, due to the color of the whitefish we were fishing around. When it came down to getting fish to bite, color seemed like the least important factor. After having caught a few fish on my bait it was chewed up pretty good and lost that feel. At that point it also stopped moving fish. I switched to a chartreuse and white version that had the same feel, and boom, I was moving fish on that one, too. In this situation the fish were keyed in on a certain bait vibration, not color.
Another example, this afternoon, my dad and I hopped out on the lake at 3:30. We surmised that the fish had moved off of the deep weed edges where they were hanging two weeks ago and slid out to secondary drops and adjacent flats. We started trolling two baits: a firetiger 10" Squirrelly Jake and a firetiger 13" Grandma. A half hour later my dad has two fish in the net to my zero. Both baits running the same depth, same color, different vibration and profile. Again it came down to the right "feel", not just color. I think that is what Pointer was trying to say, although some took it as him saying that color was a non-factor, which it most certainly isn't. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 49
| It's threads like these that make the internet worthwhile........there is alot of really good info provided to the uninformed like me, right here.
funny how folks seem to forget that they can click off and go elsewhere anytime they like....
So this is just another drive-by to say Thanks to those providing it......
Please continue.....
JR |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Addict's post, which I completely made unreadable. Fixed it here, with a couple somewhat measured responses.
----------------------
Hmph. A quiz?! Seems I might learn something here. Let me take a shot at these, and maybe Mr Worrall will educate me.
1. Tell me...why is Firetiger so popular as a bait color?:
A. Contrasting colors provide the best chance at the lure being seen under a variety of conditions-----
black, white, chartreuse, and orange are common Firetiger pattern colors. Covers everything through the spectrum. But if a large portion of the belly is white, all bets are off.-----
B. Neon colors reflect UV light, which does not disappear from sight at shallow depths like many primary and secondary colors-----
---It's been discussed Muskies might be able to see in the UV Spectrum. Not yet proven, I don't think. Light gathering paint finishes extend the availability of the color deeper in the water column. Doesn't help color, but effects bright in the contrast range if the timing is that where the muskie can't see colors anyway. Evolution is amazing.-----
2. Why is black so popular?
A. Because it works!
B. Because it provides a visible silhouette against blue sky, gray skies, water, shorelines, sand, etc.------
---Black is the absence of color, to oversimplify. It will, as a result, contrast well against any background. White is the presence of all colors, and will contrast well against anything not...white. The question may be raised, why would black work if the background is black? The background can't be black. There's precious little in nature that is actually black. Most are variations of grey, except obsidian, if I remember correctly-----
3. What are the weaknesses of any hard bait color pattern?
Not sure what you're aiming at here, but I believe it's that those colors essentially disappear against most backgrounds. Never understood why you'd design a lure to look like a baitfish that has adapted camouflage to avoid being eaten.------
---Most hard baits have a white belly, and don't roll enough to get the rest of the pattern exposed to a muskie looking at it from below. The top colors are completely irrelevant, except to the ability of the lure to sell well.------
4. Why is that not an issue with spinners?
The vibration of the blades and displacement of water causes the muskies to feed using the lateral line and not as much my sight
-----Because the colors in the tail and body parts are consistent top to bottom...point in fact is there IS no top or bottom to those lures.---
5. Why do muskies generally try to take a bait from the side?:
A. Because it's much less likely to get away
B. It gives them a better target---
---Both. B is important for target acquisition----
6. Why are figure 8s so effective?:
Because you present the bait in a small area at varying angles, and give the fish several chances to eat it it
----Because you cross the stereoscopic portion of the Muskie's vision several times which is known to support strike response, and the process allows fish reacting to the vibration that have not yet arrived within visual the necessary time to get there.---
7. Why is chrome not the best choice most times?
Ummm... Because it reflects too much light, effectively camoflaging itself? I don't know, but that my guess!
-----Chrome is essentially a mirror, and takes on the contrast of all that surrounds it. Mepps used to use real silver on trout spinners...those things caught fish. I don't like using chrome lures or blades.----
8. Where is the blind spot in the muskie's vision field?:
Right in front of it's head, as soon as it opens its mouth, or directly below its head.
-----Take a picture of the top of the Muskie's head. Draw lines from the eye on the left, and the eye on the right, just clearing the nose with a straight edge. Anything inside the inside resulting triangle the fish can't see, and the opposing triangle field of view is quite narrow for a considerable distance. Ever have one that tight on a figure 8 and assume it's the fish 'thinking' the prey is escaping that caught the fish when you speed up the lure or change direction...getting it further out in front of the fish?
Most top line predators have eye placement in front, like a cat, wolf, bear...or human being. Not much kills those predators other than other top line predators.
Most predators that are also pretty much all their life also prey have side of head eye placement, allowing better peripheral vision, presumably to aid in avoiding larger predators.----
9. What is the issue with a lure perceived with only one eye generating a strike response?:
Muskies, like other predators use both eyes to judge spatial relationships (i.e distance). With only one eye, there is a loss of depth perception.
-----Exactly. That's why the fish 'cast' back and forth from left to right ot right to left during the early portion of the attack.----
10. Why doesn't a bait presented below a muskie get as much response as one presented above?:
Muskies feed up, not down. The placement of their eyes makes it difficult if not impossible to see something that is underneath them.
----Yep---
crap, does this count towards my final grade??
---Nope
Yeah, I'm crazy, but I actually think of stuff like this when I'm out there.--- |
|
| |
