|
|
| to quote from Muskies Inc Magazine, volume 22, #1 January 1988 page 18, from an article entitled "CATCHING MUSKIES WITH LIVE SUCKERS A Modern Approach" by John Schulz, whom I think developed the first commercially available quick set rig,
"When it came to a Muskie on the sucker rod however, there was seldom any choice(to release)because now strong monofilament line, stiff rods and the 10/0 hook enabled one to deliver a set that could kill the fish outright, often leaving one with a great sense of regret, as you would have no doubt released the fish given the choice."
FOURTEEN YEARS AGO!!!!
And for the next decade guides and fishing writers and anglers still wrote articles and how to's about sucker fishing and the use of single hooks on the larger suckers and in clearer water, and for reluctant fish under various conditions. And yet everybody that fished suckers much knew they were killing fish. Sure some swam away seemingly healthy, but anyone with half a brain would have to question what would happen to a fish that was essentially "gut shot". Why would they be any more resilient than a deer or a human. The biological systems are not that different and peritonitis=death. Intestinal bacteria were never meant to roam around outside the intestinal tract. Some guides and fisherman recognized the problem and as soon as quicksets became available they quit using any single hook rigs but others persisted I am sure partially in ignorance but also felt the security of continuing because it was SOP and an accepted practice.
Then the Chip study. Now everybody that wanted to keep going the swallow route had a couple choices. It was a flawed study and couldn't be believed or plead ignorance.
Then came the emergence of the circle hook. Unfortunately it was soon discovered that the circle hook continued to cause problems if any kind of offset hook was used. In the meantime more bad rigs had been sent out and confusing education. Now the DNR has begun a study and so far it looks like the wreckage reported in the Chip study is indeed fact. Now we still have anglers out there that are saying we are crying wolf and that the correct circle hook will not harm the musky but let's face the facts, a musky swallows larger baits head first, the gullet is not designed to disgorge a large bait tail first.
And there is evidence that musky can be gut hooked even with the CORRECT CIRCLE HOOK if used improperly or bad luck occurs. I think at this time there is a need to stop using any kind of swallow rig for musky. I would hate to get down the road to the next study and find that the swallow circle hook rigs cut mortality to only 30% of fish caught. Still too high.
We currently have several members looking toward baitshop education and possible on the water education this fall. I have heard a lot of talk about "educate don't legislate" but everyone needs to consider the actual history of suckers killing musky in WI and think about biting the bullet on this one and going the legislative route to end these practices once and for all. As for now if you have any ideas at all on education techniques or a way to reach fisherman please let us know.
Do some thinking about this issue and feel free to put your thoughts here. Sucker fishing does not have to be particularly unsafe for the fish if done in a safe and ethical manner,ie quicksets and near placements of sucker rods to the angler.
|
|
| |
|
| Good post. I am already doing my part in talking to as many out of the way baitshops(many in areas most musky fishermen didn't even know muskies existed that sell quite a few singles). I think education is still the best method. I'd like to see legislation on large square hooks too, but what about guys like myself and quite a few others, who use a small sucker on a jig for big walleyes, muskies, and pike earlier in the year. Would this be outlawed? I just don't want to see alot of guys who don't really even understand many of the effective and safe methods some of us use, go off half cocked on this and accidentially lump other (safe)methods into the legislation. It needs to be worded clearly that the larger single(square type) swallow rigs are what we are targeting.
Good work, and lets here some more coments, as this is just my $1.00-$.98 |
|
| |
|
| Though I haven't used live bait for musky, I have used large chubs etc for catfish/rockfish w/ circle hooks as well as for saltwater fish...at times they work + there are times they did not work. Depending on how fast + how the bait was taken appears to help determine whether the fish lived or died. If I am FOOD fishing, I use the circle hooks; if not, then I use no live bait. If I ever do use suckers for skis, I will first learn how to properly use a quickset rig...this is my choice + can't speak for others! |
|
| |
|
| For all to hear, I feel we can fully understand and comprehend the effects a single hook rig has on fish...given that the hook is placed in the normal position through the snout and held in place by bands/etc. What I still don't understand is why DON'T more people hook the sucker/bait just under the dorsal fin. When most predators like the esocid family attack, they take the prey perpendicularly in the mouth (body sideways). by hooking the bait under dorsal, the hook is ready to be set as soon as the fish grabs, and should not go any deeper...theoretically. There are a couple of things that this does... First, one cannot use as large of a hook.
Second, the set is instantaneous (mentioned), third, you can have an offset hook as well.
I have not found while ice fishing for pike that the bait cannot still swim fairly well, it still looks natural in the water, but just does not move as far away. The worst hooking I have seen has been toward the throat, but not so deep that you cannot get it out with a good hook-out.
I do feel that it will be a very cold day in Devil country before single hook rigs would be eliminated, so this is just an option...not one I choose since I do not use live bait for muskies..
Just a thought.
Steve |
|
| |
|
| Probably going to raise a lot of flack here, but it's (MHO)
Quote from Sponge:
_____________________________________________________________________
If I ever do use suckers for skis, I will first learn how to properly use a quickset rig...this is my choice + can't speak for others!
_____________________________________________________________________
Bingo!!
The second sentence: "this is my choice + can't speak for others!" says it best.
Livebait/sucker/single-hook/quick-set debate really boils down to one side trying to convince the other side that their way is good/better/best (the only way if you will). This will always be met with resistance.
It's sort of like me telling others that what it has taken me 35 years to realize, they now have to understand immediately. It simply will not work! For one thing, 35 years experience doesn't necessarily equate to being correct.
I think it would save all a lot of frustration if we do what we're comfortable with, explain our approach and why we choose it to others who are interested in what we have to say, and then leave others do the same.
Do I use single-hook kill rigs for musky fishing?.......No.
Do I have the right to insist that others do not use single hook rigs for their musky fishing?.............In truth, this answer is also No.
We can and should educate, instruct, coach and recommend, but we have to stop short of insisting. We plainly do not have the right to insist how others go about their musky fishing business. Unless of course they are breaking an established law.
Am I promoting legislation?..........No, not really. I personally think education is preferable to legislation, I just don't think forcing one opinion on others (regardless of motive) is truly education.
In the end, the musky's well being (including fishing methods used) has to come from within each musky angler. Here lies the secret and easier to swallow (pardon the pun), less abusive tactics will be more easily received and placed into practice.
Just my slant on things.
|
|
| |
|
| Funny thing I spoke to a bait shop owner about this last year so he got rid of the "J" hooks and started selling circle hooks.A step forward or backwards?BOTH!.The circle hooks had a really bad offset this in turn will do the same thing as a "J" hook.Education and following thru the right way! |
|
| |
|
| MM you have got it exactly right and exactly wrong in my opinion.
Yes you are going to have to force others to accept immediately if not very soon what it has taken others many years to understand and accept. Exactly right, though you don't think you can do it.
No, you are mistaken when you call it an "opinion". How many studies must be concluded before you accept it as fact?? A size 10 hook in the gut of a released musky pretty well finishes them off-indicated by the Chippewa study and lately backed up substantially by the DNR study. Any undersized musky with a hook in his belly is a wasted fish. Do you not agree on this? Is there some study contradicting this? Or if it's proven to be only 60-80% fatal are those losses acceptable?
I am assuming you have been following the discussions and the studies on the boards and in the mags. Do you still feel that swallow rigs being unsafe is an opinion?
Obviously the legal right to fish with a 10/0 square hook or large j hook or offset circle or inline circle or quickset is established at this time. No question of that, and no question that any harsh tactics could cause backlash(not desirable for education).
If it is the current, and remains the popular opinion in the mind of the general public and musky fisherman, that single hooks do not harm fish, maybe we are better off pursuing legislation rather than education. |
|
| |
|
| FSF, good thoughts. I agree nearly 100%.
To the question of "Education or Legislation?", I say, why does it have to be one or the other? Why not both?
I believe the time has come, actually long overdue, for a rule change to eliminate single hooks. But at the same time, education (or friendly persuasion...?) should be pursued to lessen the opposition to such a rule change.
Mike Deiss
|
|
| |
|
| Ive never live baited these magnificent creatures.To me there are few things in life that have ever compaired to tricking these fish.I mean if your going to feed a muskie a sucker,you might as well let it finish eating it.I know if someone jerked some juicy baby back ribs outta my mouth before I could swollow,I too would swim to the bottom and die.I think Dawgs are a good alternitive,as well as many other cold water baits.One of my favorites is the Dead Head.This neutrally bouyant lure is made to work super slow with a lot of hang time,and you get a lot of bait for your buck. |
|
| |
|
| I am a live bait musky fisherman and have been for the last twelve years.
I consider sucker fishing for muskys to be an art form; especially for big muskys.
My goal is to catch very large muskys when I use very large sucker minnows: 17 - 22 inch range.
And, I use quick strike rigs that are either treble or single, 10/0 - 14/0, J style type hook or salt water hook..
I wait no longer than a couple of dozen seconds, depending upon the strike and angle of the fish to the rod.
And, I have successfully released all my sucker caught muskies because all those muskies where caught in the mouth area, with no musky being gut hooked.
Lets emphasize that sucker fishing with the intent of waiting for a musky to swallow the sucker results in stomach or gut hooked muskies. The Chippewa Flowage study and the Wisconsin DNR study is confirming that muskys cannot survive after being gut hooked.
Any hook style - treble, Circle hook, single hook, if set into a muskys stomach runs a high probability of it not being successfully released.
The practice of waiting 30 - 40 minutes after strike, with the intent of the musky being given enough time to swallow any hook type, is the true culprit here people...
It's the practice of sucker fishing and shore rods miles away from their owners that allows for too much time passing and stomach hookings results. This Chippewa Flowage problem isn't the reason to ban single bait hooks.
Guns don't kill people; people do. Single hooks don't kill muskys; people do...
Lets face the real facts here. Quick strike rigging of trebles, Circle hooks, and yes, single hooks have no more impact on a musky than an artifical lure if set within the first 10 - 30 seconds.
[:0] |
|
| |
|
| No offense DD(and congratulations on your fish by the way)but you are not grasping the situation. This is not about the Chippewa Flowage set line shame. This is about sucker fishing with single hooks, a method that in it's nature has not been used or designed for quick set rigging. This is a WI wide problem.
Single hook rigs are STILL in general use and need to be either educated or legislated out.
People like you who continue to fight it lead the way for more losses to the single hook swallow rigs. I do not believe there is a safe avenue for the general fishing population and the general muskie fishing population to use single hook rigs without inherent damage to undersized and/or undesirable, less than trophy fish kill. The only non wasteful way to fish with suckers is to utilize quick set riggings and rapid hooksets and single hook rigs are not reliable hookers for rapid hooksets. They are designed to be ingested. There was quite a discussion on why WI doesn't have big musky and MN does and this is one factor that plays a part both in populations and trophy fish populations. Single hooks don't kill musky, people putting suckers on single hooks kill musky! |
|
| |
|
| Gooder one RAZE!!! I feel the same way about watermelon...only I'd kill the person that grabbed the melon out of me mouth + the police would have to then kill me to let him go....[:0
* On the way home yesterday I saw 3 chicks covered in flour + cornmeal; they were headed to the Battered Wife Shelter.... [:blackeye:] |
|
| |
|
| Thanks... I still see that fish in my dreams.
Yea, I do grasp the situation and fully understand what gut hooked muskys end up being: turtle fodder.
And, I fish single, wide gapped, J style hooks, but in a quick strike rigged manner.
I wait no more than 10 - 30 seconds, depending upon the angle of the fish to the rod.
What I don't do with these single, J style hooks, is hook a sucker through the lips and then wait 45 minutes for a musky to swallow a sucker and then set into it's stomach.
I use the Herbie rig in a modified manner. The rubber band is through the nose, and I stinger off either to a treble attached to the dorsal fin, or a very large gap J hook which I modify to ride under the sucker belly, right below the dorsal fin.
I have a very high percentage of lower jaw hookups when I fish a J hook this way.
On Musky Hunter, I posted a "Poppie Rig" thread in response to Larry Ramsalls single hook sucker proposal back in early spring. Read the archieves to understand.
I am planning on taking Mike Deiss fishing this October to demonstrate this style of single hook fishing.
I WOULD NOT BE an advocate of a single hook unless this style of quick strike rigging HAD NOT proven itself to me as a better mouse trap than using a treble hook. Again, the widder the gap, the higher the chance of a lower jaw hookup.
When this hook is down below the belly, it makes it more weedless, and woodless. I use dental elastics...
I can troll a big sucker right through the weeds far easier than using trebles.
I also skip the rubber band part and give a sucker it's head and that seems to be more of an advantage when using a Thill musky size slip-bobber..
Lastly, the bigger the sucker, the lower the probability of being swallowed, unless it's SHAMOO.
And, I am fishing for SHAMOO with very large suckers. And if somebody else has this mindset as their goal (the biggest fish that swims in that water), and harvest is their intent, then I support their right to catch a thrill of a lifetime and mount it, eat it or what ever they want to because that is what fishing is all about; not total 100 percent CPR..
So, firstsixfeet, we agree to disagree; but our goal is the same: stop gut hooking muskies and stop killing them, if the fishing intent is catch and release.
[:0] |
|
| |
|
| FSF:
I'm not arguing (with you or anyone else) that gut hooked muskies die, I firmly believe that they do - and I felt that way years before there ever was a Chippewa Flowage Study or any other study that I am aware of for that matter. The very idea that anyone could rip up an animal's stomach (any animal) and then that animal can and will go off on it's own, witnout any medical attention, and just naturally heal up is rediculous - if not just plain stupid.
I just know that anyone, regardless of their motives (and that includes positive as well as negative) becoming so overzealous that they incite division [my way vs. yours] isn't doing themselves, their cause, anyone or anything any real good. There's an old saying "that you'll catch more flies with sugar than you will with viegar", well the same principle applies here too.
Educate, don't dictate. And to legislate is in reality, to dictate.
DD informs us he has developed a method of using single-hook "quick-set" rigs which have proven by his field testing to as effective at hooking muskies in the mouth as treble hook rigs. Why should anyone push to have his technique outlawed? How does that benefit muskies or musky fishing? To my way of thinking it doesn't. All it does is force him to be an opponent of livebait rigs utilizing treble hooks and many others will join him if it becomes a battle, especially if legislation is being considered.
PLEASE NOTE: I refer to DD simply because he has posted here on this subject. I don't single him out for any other purpose and I know there are many others who will resist treble hook legislation for their own reasons and techniques. And I don't think their only reason is to kill muskies.
The real issue here is quickly setting the hook or hooks on live bait rigs when musky fishing to reduce the likelihood that the fish will swallow the bait and be mortally wounded. This is where the attention needs to be directed and we can't legislate that anyway. If left to mouth a bait for prolonged periods (30 to 45 minutes is often stated) it won't matter what kind of hook is used, the musky is DEAD.
I reiterate, we need to promote quick hook setting and I believe that's better achieved with a positive, more friendly approach than an obstant insistance of MY WAY or legislation.
I do agree with and commend you in your desire to promote a BETTER WAY, I just question that flack and legalities is the best way to go about it.
One final point: I don't fish for muskies with live bait, I'm not trying to promote one technique over another. I just hate to see the musky fishing community divided and fighting amongst itself over this or any issue needlessly. United we stand, divided we fall. More than just a slogan. Organizations like PETA are bound to jump on this one.
Good Luck to all musky hunters, AND our quarry too.
|
|
| |
|
| I for one am for more education and not more regulation.
I use a single hook at times and I hook the sucker in front of the tail with it. Let them have it and then set. With them swalloing head first I get them hooked in the mouth. This is with smaller suckers. You'll find to it won't get snagged as much also.
I have also been doing this with quick strikes and have done ok. I relly like how much more snag proof it is since the hooks are pointed back instead of forward.
My suckers also remain more lively!!!!!!
At 3 bucks a pop thats a big plus.
Don Pfeiffer |
|
| |
|
| This was exactly my point. I've talked to DD in past years and have been clued in on his success with using the type of rig he does. The big jig also comed into play and has not been addressed. Education and elimination of production seems the best approach, and I will continue to do everything in my power to assist in the education on the retail end of things as well as anglers I see using the gut rigs. As I stated before, it is much more important to keep us anglers banded together as one, then to have something banned and have a divided force of fishermen who cannot get important things such as size limit increases/stocking increases/new lke designations etc. passed because of bad blood. |
|
| |
