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Posts: 152
Location: Nowhere near where I should be | Along the lines of ben and hamskie if the bait is put into an enticing (enough)motion, 8, 0, L, D, Z, whatever, this should get a fish to eat. I mean If it came that far, and depending how "hot" she might be the right seasoning should help seal the deal. In my opinion there are far to many variables to put a single number, or motion, on your after follow figure-letter. As far as blind 8's go hows this, casting our way down the weed line, at a decent pace I got the edge, dogboys chuckin' deep, ciggy break and a drink (maybe 7 min). I pick up my rod all amped up again and bust right into a figure-8. No cast, just make my phantom swim around up down all around more so playing my bait like there was one following it. I would say about a minute and a half or better and having written the alphabet with my bait, one last wide turn to the surface and a fish just appears out of no where on my bait and smashed it, lots of laughs after that i mean, i was just screwing around. right time? right place? right offering? right motion to pull her out of the weeds? Anything goes,Fish don't think an L is more attractive than an 8 they react when motion is made off the original straight line. Just be ready to do what you have to to get the job done, if shes round 6 times on the X and hasn't eaten are you gonna stop and give up, or are ya gonna offer an O.
Edited by figure8out 3/24/2011 6:45 AM
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | I tend to side more with Doug J on this one. However, there is time and a place for everything, including multiple figure 8's after every cast (deep, slow, cold water fishing in my experience). |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI |
I think Brett gave a little more insight into what him, Bn and Scotty are talking about.... there is a TIME AND A PLACE to do blind figure 8s. I know for a fact they don't do them all the time... Brett eluded to if fish are coming slow and late... might not be a bad time to try blind 8's. Also right at dark if fish have been moving but not committing... another time to try it. I think lake style has a LOT to do with it. LOTW you are in SHALLOW water. A lot of the bigger MN/WI lakes the fish can follow 6-8 feet down and you don't even see them.
Interesting perspectives anyway.... |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Occasionally when I'm drawing simple L's after every cast, ripping the bait out of the water and firing away, I have sworn out loud when I looked down and saw a late arriver show up wondering where in the heck the lure went.. It's when an instance like this happens when I start putting a little more into it and giving it a full circle or two just to see if anyone wants to sneak in and crash the party fashionably late  |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | dougj - 3/23/2011 6:16 PM
Learn how to spot a fish that's following as that's the key.
Pithy knowledge... great advice. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | You can always come back to those fish if they're worth catching. How many fish south of Canada and east of Minnesota actually hit on an 8? And of those how many do you get hooks into? I love to watch em follow and strike on the 8 but where I fish it just isn't the best use of your time on the water if your goal is putting fish in the net, IMO. |
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| I think you guys that only do an L are missing the chance at fish. I do think there is a limit to the total number of times around, and you are right in saying you may be missing fish by doing too many. I personally do one oval and transition into an actual 8 after every cast. I will keep it going a few minutes if I see a fish, but I think two is a good minimum most of the time. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | "learn how to spot a fish thats following thats the key" ????
um ok, yah, water is in full summer bloom and you are working a dawg 6 feet down and I guess I don't Superman vision that can see into the water with 3" visibility...or how about a flowage with muddy water... great tip I agree for water clarity that allows you the ability to actually see follows as we have all fished with guys who we have to point follows out to more times than not but to say it's as simple as learning to spot follows...not true. not even close. some fish will come straight up from the bottom at the boat to pounce on your bait...fishing some lakes where you are in 25 feet of water casting to and over weeds in 10 feet of water and there can be active fish from 10 feet to 25 feet of water and come out of nowhere to hit the bait on the first move in the L...I wish it were just as simple as "learn to spot a fish"....well on many waters other than LOTW there are more variables than casting at a boulder sticking up and bringing a fish in from that rock.
... too many fish have found the net to say you just have to learn to spot following fish.
my 2 cents.
Edited by BNelson 3/24/2011 8:46 AM
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Good points Brad. Those suspendos definitely have a way of coming straight out of nowhere below you when you're least expecting it! They shoot up like a rocket to the moon, roll on your bait and dive straight back down..
After every cast with a Bulldawg I'll rip it upwards to the boat and when it's a few feet down I'll flip it by ripping up and rolling the Dawg at the peak of the rip by coming back down with the rod, so as to stop the bait from porpoising at the last minute.. I give it some hang time and go out and around with it in a big circle nearly every time.. I couldn't count how many times I've had a fish shoot up out of nowhere to grab the bait at the moment I roll the Dawg and give it a second of hang time... You'd never see those fish coming.
So we have to refer to instances to justify our methods.. |
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Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Learning how to spot a fish following IS a major key in figure 8 success. I have quite a few very accomplished anglers fish we me every year as well, and I'm surprised how many times I find myself saying, "Hey, you have one coming."
Take this advice or leave it, up to you...please lose the sarcastic, antagonistic tone. We have some very knowledgeable folks unwilling to post to a thread you have an opinion posted to because if you disagree with them, you frequently seem to try to do your best to try to openly insult or belittle them. Maybe a reason for lack of what should be due respect.
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Location: SE Wisconsin | sworrall - 3/24/2011 9:07 AM I'm surprised how many times I find myself saying, "Hey, you have one coming." I love it! That's one of the best parts of fishing with someone... You get to watch for their follows, too  I do the same thing.. It's vicarious, but instinctual - I can't help it and I don't wanna.... ... Except when it causes me to miss an opportunity of my own, lol. |
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Posts: 1141
Location: NorthCentral WI | While learning to spot followers may be a major factor, I've fished plenty of lakes where you can't see a bright orange bucktail right under the surface, let alone see ANY follows. I know you can't deny that.
Although there may have been some confusion, my original question was when you KNOW you have had a follow but the fish seems to have lost interest or took off right away, then how long will you continue to 8, O, or whatever you like to do?
My 2nd question was for stained waters like I'm referring to where you can not see your lure once it goes under the surface.
On the other hand, it may be that my first move or L is not as enticing as I'd like to think. Not sure. I feel like it is better than the guy in that simply fishing clip though. Either way, I have had plenty of follows where the fish takes off as soon as it reaches the side of the boat. The idea with starting the thread was to be able to convert a few more of these fish.
Which brings me to another question. If a lot of you guys are saying you usually get them to eat in the 2nd or 3rd turn... What if they don't? If the fish seems to dodge off some, do you just stop? I wouldn't think so.
Good information though all around!
Edited by MartinTD 3/24/2011 9:52 AM
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Well first things first - why the flash-offs? Maybe they saw you or you flinched, or maybe the got close enough to the bait to realize it 'felt' better than it looked when they saw it up close..
There's a couple things to consider when your nearing the boat at the end of a retrieve and that is to draw the eye away from you and the boat. Generally, if I'm in the front of the boat I'll angle my rod out towards the front when the lure is about 15' out, or if I'm in the back of the boat, I'll manuver the rod to point towards the back.. This initial change in the direction of your bait that can sometimes induce a strike before they ever reach the boat and at the very least convert a window shoppers direction away from your silohuouette. Doing this also sets you up for the big oval.
Say you're in the front of the boat and you angle the rod towards the front so as to draw the lure away from your feet at the last 15 feet of the retrieve or so.. Now as you get closer in, with a clean sweep you can dig down and sweep past your feet on the inside of the oval.. This draws their eyes down so they still don't see you. On the first outside turn, you bring the bait up and around the outside of the oval and when you're ready to make the third turn and bring her back to your feet, you drive that bait right back down. In essense, you're attempting to keep the fish from seeing you through and through.. This helps with the flash offs.
So you have three things working for you with this method. 1) Direction change can induce a strike before your bait reaches your feet, 2) You're drawing their eyes away from you - not distracting their focus on the lure, and 3) You're setting yourself up for a big oval comfortably and with ease.
Edited by Sam Ubl 3/24/2011 10:45 AM
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Location: Contrarian Island | sorry, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or belittle anyone but I stand by the major points in my posts...if I came across the wrong way to Doug or anyone I apologize....
Learning to spot follows is key but there are times and fish that give you no chance... and I don't care who it is ...they won't see em coming... |
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Posts: 897
| dougj - 3/23/2011 9:10 PM
Well, I figured that would get a few replies! No BN you're not reading my reply wrong! I sort of supect that the lakes that you are fishing will make a lots of difference. Almost all the fish we get on the LOTWs are coming off structure from a shoreline. I've never had a fish out of open water (I've tried) On the LOTWs (and all the other Ontario lakes I've fished, many more) you'll see the fish that you'll catch on an eight. Like I've stated I've had many guys do blind figure-8's and no one has ever caught a fish (maybe a few, but not many, 30 years guiding and 100's of clients). I can think of a couple, but not enough to worry about. We've caught a good number of 50"fish on figure-8's but only after we've seen them following. We've caught many a fish on the "L", but you if you are watching you can see the fish coming. Just because there's a lots of folks who think it pays to do an extensive blind figure-8 there must be people who catch some. But I'll bet that if you could figure out a way to measure fishing success. I.E. Catch/unit/effort (how long does it take to catch a fish), I'll bet that the folks who do a "L" and that make another cast to another spot rather than stirring the water with a figure-8 would be far ahead. I think there's been too much emphasis put on the blind figure-8 at boat side. Your are much better off making another cast to a new location than stirring the water at boat side! Personal opinion!!!! Doug Johnson
I've been on LOTW a total of 9 days and already have one on a "blind" figure 8, well, actually an oval. Hit on the third turn and came off shallow structure, boat was in 10'. I've also caught a number of fish on other lakes that I never saw until they ate at some point during the oval. I think a person should be doing at least one complete 8 or oval at the end of every cast, regardless of water clarity (never know when that fish is gonna attack from under the boat, or is coming from the side or behind), more if you're getting late follows. Sure you can come back on fish, but that doesn't always work and you may only get one shot at an active fish before it feeds or leaves the area. |
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Posts: 580
| Just in reference to LOTW, I completely agree with Doug J on this one. I believe that 95%+ of the muskies that are catchable in 8 are seen well in advance of the start of the 8. Sure, in a week's time I might catch 1 fish doing a bind figure 8. But I believe that I might catch 3 or 4 or more by having made more casts to likely targets because I'm not fussing around with a full 8 after every cast.
If I'm on LOTW for a week, for me, it's a simple matter of percentages and efficiency...I want to contact as many fish as possible and the way I do that is by making as many casts to likely targets as possible.
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| A figure 8 in dirty water is like a figure 8 after dark, you can't see a #*^@ thing! I do two, but as Doug Johnson said, it is just my opinion. I don't think there is necessarily a right answer and I don't think there is necessarily a wrong answer. Valid arguements for both sides, so I would do what you have more confidence in. I would do at least one full 8 regardless of day, night, water clarity, fish spotted, or no fish spotted. Just my opinion |
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| I would figure 8 for a couple minutes if you have spotted a fish and it is no longer visible. There was an article by Tom Gelb that said he would keep it going for four or more minutes. I have seen fish come back after two or three, so I am convinced it works. Personal opinion - 5 minutes max. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | Fish are weird, no way around that.. It's up to the angler to read the fish if she comes in. If you get a chance to lay eyes on her, you probably have an idea what kind of mood she's in and it's up to your "in the moment" experience to take the lead. Musky fishing is all about trial and error, which I'm sure will last us all a lifetime. |
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Posts: 444
| I have also caught fish on LOTW's doing a blind figure 8, fish came from underneath the boat, fishing mid lake reef...
I agree with BN on this one (it's not possible to see every following fish) and i myself try and do 2 nice big figure eights after every cast...seen to many missed fish with doing a lazy L... |
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Posts: 8777
| I don't think anybody has said you can't or won't catch fish in those situations. I've caught two that I never saw. I think the point Doug is trying to make is that you're wasting time doing figure 8's for a fish that's not even there, and likely passing up the opportunity to make another cast at a fish that just might be. More casts=more fish, essentially. Sure, you might miss a late arrival, but how many of those lazy low and slow fish that came in late do you actually convert? |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I guess I look at it like Scotty T said...imo that ONE fish you do convert by executing a fig 8 (not 3 8s) and it comes out of nowhere to smash your bait could be THE fish that makes or breaks a day/trip/season..his first 50 came from below the boat in stained water (shallow too) to pounce on his "Oprah" bucktail in a blind figure 8 situation...so that fish, made his day, heck made my day/trip to see the look on his face when it hit and went in the bag some 5 yrs ago...had he not done it...he wouldn't have had his 1st 50 in the bag to smile about .... imo doing a figure 8 in some situations and water clarities is the difference between going home with a 50 in the net or going home w your tail between your legs...where I fish...doing at least a partial 8 will put more fish in the bag over the course of a season than firing off 100 more casts ... i get what Doug is saying and I get it.. maybe on LOTW it is different but the waters I fish it makes more sense to do it than not...too many experiences and big ones in the net or missed chances to ever think otherwise....but that's just me. do whatever works for you and puts fish in net..i know what works for me
Edited by BNelson 3/24/2011 12:16 PM
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | I think my point was the same that MartinTD was trying to make. I fished the Petenwell Flowage several times last year. Have any of you fished it? It's like chocolate milk out there. I could hardly see my fluorescent pink Pearson Grinder Spinnerbait a few *inches* under the surface of the water much less anticipate or make a visual on a following fish. It is impossible. Completely impossible.
That's why I think there are so many variables and different varying opinions with no hardfast right or wrong answer. |
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Posts: 17
Location: Park Falls, WI | Living and fishing in northern wisconsin last year I can honestly say that over half of the fish I caught last year were on the blind figure 8. The waters around me last year were very dark due to high water to add though. Gets me thinking either my retrieve sucks or my figure 8' are good!! |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Yeah, Petenwell is a murk pool. It is also poor figure 8 water compared to the grand scheme. Its' backyard so has gotten biased attention over the years, and while we get an occasional, it is far from high % 8 water. The following fish tend to be quite boat shy. Over the past several years, more and more fish are showing up at the boat however. Only thing that's changed much is pressure. Got two on eights there last year in May alone, which is a higher than typical number for a month of fishing here.
To simply blanket categorize dark water fish as being better blind 8 water is a mistake. Every lake is different, no matter the water clarity/type and it can vary from one flowage to the next on the same river. This is not a rule but far more often than not, our good eight lakes in WI are quite clear compared to the 'non' 8 lakes in a given county/region etc. Do I miss a few hits not doing a complete 8 on my 'non' 8 lakes every time(I still do an L)? Perhaps, but not enough for me to blind 8 every time. On the other hand, there are just as many lakes that finishing is as important as the rest of the cast.
I've only fished a handful of Canadien waters, dark and clear and all have prven higher % 8 lakes than my local pond. One I haven't fished that is similar to Petenwell in clarity, is Wabigoon. Is that consistantly great 8 water like Eagle, just down the road?
Edited by Reef Hawg 3/24/2011 4:12 PM
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| Can you catch a fish "blind" on LOTW? well sure....BUT you will catch many more by watching your lure come to the boat, do a correct L , nothing there - fire the next cast. Doing a full 8 after every cast is a waste of time and 3 well that is just silly.
Night fishing MN 3 full 8's make total sense. |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | For me, it depends on several factors:
1. Water clarity. In very dark or stained water, a figure-8 or at least a circle or "L" can make a big difference if no fish are seen.
2. The mood of the fish. Sometimes the fish are hitting close to the boat or following far befind and then coming in and hitting on a figure-8. I have seen times when the fish don't show up until one does at least one full figure-8.
3. The type of structure. I am more likely to figure-8 if we are fishing deeper water or a deep edge where the fish are more likely to come from under the boat. In shallow water, I am more likely to do an "L" if no fish are seen. On deeper areas, I will often do a big circle if no fish are seen.
4. How many fish we are seeing and where they are coming from. If they're all coming from far out, then not so much. But if fish are coming from under the boat, then a full figure-8 on every cast.
5. My mood at the time. I usually don't figure-8 so much if I feel particulary tired or lazy.
Now, if I have a big fish up near the boat, I will figure-8 until my arms are about ready to fall off.
Edited by Herb_b 3/25/2011 12:06 PM
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