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| Typically, (if there is a thermocline present on a particular day)I have found the thermocline at approximately 15-20 feet deep in my lake. I have noticed that during the dog days (98 deg. air and mid-80s surface water temps) of summer, that quite often that I can pick up a fish (trolling crankbaits) at that depth SUSPENDED (probably above the thermocline( over fairly deep water (up to 60 feet).
I also have noticed that at those same approximate times of the year with the SAME surface water temps and air temps that I can find some really big fish on the BOTTOM at the SAME depths(15-20 feet) using plastics.
Looking for some input from the pros as to what is going on - If I can find the fish suspended (in the thermocline) in a certain depth, is it also a good choice to find the same depth on the bottom for more fish? After all, the bottom layer of water below the thermocline obviously isn't there. Seems to be working for me. Thanks, tom |
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| Kid,
As you have probably read, (via. Mr. Perry) "if" a thermocline is present then it should be treated as a breakline and fished accordingly,,, and that's what it sounds like you're all about, Good luck with the tigers. |
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| Good point. I've been reading Buck's materials since the early 1970s and still have the original book. I also bought the library of materials he offers also (just a longer version of the book). Never purchased his tapes (thinking about it), but do have a couple of the rods & reels that he sells (good stuff). Of course I do have some of the other toosl too (Spoonplugs). as you know, his methods work-the best day I ever had was trolling Spoonplugs. Of course, as Buck himself says, if you can find something else that will do the same thing...go for it!
I've thought about the similarites. Obviously if you have things that attract fish (bait, etc) either on the bottom or in or slightly above/below the thermocline area, whether they are the same depth or not, you will attract fish. Didn't think about the breakline idea (I hadn't remembered it), but it makes a lot of sense. Of course some of those things by themselves will not always attract baitfish or fish. When you add them up together - then you've got something. Find the kitche - find the fish!
I've got all of Buck's written materials. Guess it's time to read it again and get a little more of his knowledge. As you know, Knowledge is the key to success. Thanks to boards and people (like you) responding to them, we can always learn something. I started reading Bucks stuff after I heard Roland Martin (he lived here in Maryland in the 70s) state that Buck's materials were the best on structure/scientific fishing around. Of course others take credit for his methods and make a lot of money using them, but most serious fisherman know what he has accomplished. I called his business the other day. He's still alive and kicking and still selling lures. I found out from the lady taking an order from me that the website that is presently online is not really his (he does not have a website_, but someone else representing themselves as his official website. Of course they do purchase the items from him at wholesale and sell them to us. Then again, if you get a copy of his catalog, you will notice that the prices are lower, there are more items available (tapes are not advertised on the website) and that there a lot more lure colors available. In addition, they offer a sale every year in the catalog, but not on the website.
Kind of sad - if you look at pictures of members of the Spoonpluggers of America, you will see that most of them are older people. When they are gone, I wonder what will happen to his products and tools? Unfortunately, everyone wants the "quick fix." Buck doesn't offer that - just an education from anyone who is willing to take the time to get it. |
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| "Kid"...
Sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on it. The thermocline can be a very effective type of "structure" to fish during the dog days of summer.
Quite simpley, when surface temps are mid/upper 80's the primary or first thermocline is typically an 8-15 degree change in water temp. The secondary thermocline (if present) is usually 4-10 degrees. My information comes first hand from over 20 years of scuba diving experience.
One thing that is very important is the amount of disolved oxygen at or below the thermocline. Popular belief has been that there was no or little disolved oxy. below thermoclines. I can tell you that this too is not always the case and in fact I have caught "suspendo's" in 40+ feet of water below the primary thermocline. I have also physically seen fish below thermoclines when diving.
You mentioned fish on the bottom equal to the depth of the thermocline. That too can be a fish holding area, however I think it also depends on what the bottom composition is. i.e. sand,gravel,muck,silt, etc. Don't overlook these areas and I agree, plastic/rubber is a good choice, so is a crankbait that you can "dig" the bottom with.
Why do they like thermoclines...I have nothing other than personal theory on this but I believe it's a comfort zone thing. They can find cooler water with good oxygen levels, food (very important)= fat and happy muskies..:)
There is also little/no disturbance from recreational traffic at those depths.
Your on the right track Kid....keep on doing what your doing and I have to believe your numbers will increase. Understanding thermoclines and how to fish them will help put fish in the boat in the summer months.
Good luck....
Mark
Musky Adventures
Eau Claire, WI |
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| Great reply Mark. Never heard of a secondary thermocline before. Does this mean that rather than three layers of water, there can be four? Seems like a thermometer would be a better way of finding it. I've tried both and have seen it occasionally with the depthfinder. I've also seen big changes in the water temps. but never pursued it as much as I could. During the dog days, we have hooked Tigers on the bottom im 40 feet of water (secondary dropoff in my lake)while fishing for Bass with jigs. They seem to like to hang against structure, just like big Bass. I've seen some people claim that they have a problem with fish being brought up from the bottom with air bladder problems. Do you find this to be true? I personally believe that the big one's do hang out in deeper water. How do you feel about that? Thanks, Tom |
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| "Kid"
In my scuba diving experiences I have experienced as many as 3 different "thermoclines" or stratification layers. However this has been on very large and deep bodies of water. We have one local lake that is approx 1,500 acres and has a 100' hole in it. It is common on that lake to have a primary thermocline at say 15-24 feet and another about 20-25 feet deeper meaning 40-50 feet, depending on the time of year.
Like I said the largest temperature break will come at the primary thermocline and they get less the deeper you get. They have been so bad when diving that passing through them gives a diver an "icecream" headache even through a 6mm wetsuit hood..
Ya know I have been wanting to talk to Pete Mania about the bladder issue but I don't get to see him that often. I hope to touch base with him soon though and will try and remember to ask him. I have the utmost respect for his knowledge and efforts on catch/release issues.
I can tell you that I know it is a concern and most definately is dependent on a fish being brought up from depth too fast. e.g. "horsing them in".
Let me offer this advise...If a fish hooked at say 30' or deeper (30' is critical due to the physics of expansion of air/gas) and it is not allowed enough time to "swim" it's way up in the water column there is a good chance it may not be able to "dump" enough air from its bladder.
Bottom Line: When fishing deep....take your time in bringing the fish up.
When I get more information on this subject I will post on another thread or will write a short article on it.
Hope this helps you a little.....
Some day I really would love to come out there and chase the tigers....I have a personal goal of catching and releasing a 45" fish from all four of the strains of muskies. I still have to get my spotted and Tiger to complete my personal slam...
Good luck....and thanks for sharing ideas and information. It's what makes MuskieFirst the best....[:praise:]
Mark "Curly" Hintz
Musky Adventures Guide Service
Eau Claire, WI |
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| Thanks for the great info. I learned quite a bit from your reply. Tom |
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| I'm no pro but I have some ideas to share....
We just returned from a week on Bond Falls Flowage in da yoop. The thermocline was at 18 feet. While trolling for skis I found a couple mid-lake humps that poked through the thermocline a couple feet; in other words, the hump would peak at about 15-16 feet deep, just above the "cline" Fish were stacked all over those little "islands in the cline". With slip bobbers and single hooks, we used up over 200 nightcrawlers taking walleyes, perch, bass and pike from those little "cline islands". Most other folks we talked to said they were not catching squat and this was reinforced by the bait shop guys. But we caught over 50 eaters in 5 days. And we lost a bunch of rigs to cut-offs by bigger pike. (Note - I tried soaking a 6" sucker minnow on a leader to get one of those pike but no soap - NOTHING touched the minnow while the crawlers were hot as can be.)
Also, I recall reading a great article about mid-summer monster pike in Little Bay De Noc. The auther said the biggest fish were always concentrated right where the cline intersected with the drop-off. I recall that this guy regularly caught 40+" pike on these spots.
Just some thoughts for your consideration.... |
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| Ranger: what you say really makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the post. |
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