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| I'm going to be hated for saying this, but I would like to see a movement to close all northern pike fishing down in the states and in Canada on December 1 of each year. These fish are suckers for shiners or other minnows dangled under the ice. Too many are killed by ice anglers. Pressure for ten months a year. These are valuable game fish, for G's sake. Catch and release muskie anglers would go berserk if people were allowed to kill muskies caught under the ice in the prime muskie range. And people would figure out a way to do it. The states can satisfy ice anglers by planting rainbow trout in the lakes suitable for them. They do that here in the PA, and folks have a good time with them. Oh well... |
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Posts: 32926
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Short answer: Not a chance.
Longer answer:
Pike are not Muskies. Population dynamics are completely different.
1) If a lake is deemed a trophy potential water in the Midwest or needs protection to a certain size fish, it can be protected with size limits, and many are.
2) Pike WAY outnumber Muskies, and actually compete with them. The limit on most waters here is 5. We rarely take more than a couple, but would raise pure hell if an attempt were made to close the gamefish season for ice anglers. We'd push to close it from March 1 through June 15th or so, like it is for largemouth and smallmouth, even though there's no reason to eliminate Pike angling during that time for anyone. The season for Pike in WI is closed from March 1 to the first Saturday in May, as it is for Walleyes to protect the fish during the spawn. No concern for Walleyes?
3) Ice anglers who target Pike outnumber summer pike anglers by a wide margin on many lakes. Fisheries folks are aware of the harvest, and can, will, and have cut limits and placed size limits on some waters if the population is in any danger at all.
4) Muskies are available to ice anglers for up to a few weeks in some areas now.
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Posts: 97
Location: Pickering, ON | Such a blanket request doesn't really work out.
Yes, they are a valuable sport fish - where they belong and can exist, without totally wrecking the balance of a fishery.
In one of our zones here the MNR has just passed new regs which allow year round Pike fishing. Why? Because they have worked their way into a chain of lakes (the Kawarthas/Trent Severn) in which the prevailing strain of Muskies cannot co-exist with them. The Musky fishery in two of these lakes has already been completely and utterly destroyed - leaving behind a hammer handle Pike fishery. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | common sense on the pike ... take what you'll eat and respect a big fish with a release. i've fished ice-pike for 30 years on many of the same lakes and have seen ebs and flows but no "devastation", in-fact on one lake in particular, the pressure that has come it's way the past 3-4 years has resulted in catching bigger fish with even the crazy notion of catching a "trophy" ... at least for our area.
i've seen harvest on pike improve the quality of fish caught.
no way i'd support it. as mentioned above ... these fish are protected during the spawn and here in N. Wisco there is no dark-house spearing so the bigger fish have a better chance of surviving the season.
i would support a slot limit that would protect fish over 30" though.
Edited by jonnysled 2/8/2010 9:45 AM
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Posts: 32926
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sled,
So would I. |
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | I share some of your disgust of the lack of proper regulations regarding Northern Pike. Here in Michigan people have been feeding them treble hooks for 100 years gut hooking them and tossing them back because they were not big enough. But there are several sides to the Pike story.
#1 they are much better spawners then Muskies meaning they repopulate pretty well so harvest is needed in many cases to prevent stunting. I am fishing a lake today for pike that 10 years ago was solid hammer handles barely reaching 20 inches now because of our D.N.R. removing size limits on that lake and increasing catch limits to 5 we were able to catch two in the 5 to 7 pound range 3 days ago. In many cases Pike need to be harvested aggressively to keep them growing larger.
Other lakes in my area already have low populations and Big Pike. These lakes can not stand heavy harvest as they get wiped out by spearing and tip up fishermen. My state has tried to fix this by allowing district biologists to manage each lake differently. It has been tricky but in case of Muskegon Counties Big Blue Lake has worked wonderfully. I have not seen 7 pound Northerns in this lake in 15 years due to stunting. Now with aggressive harvest we have a population lower in density but better sizes meaning the Bigger Pike are now controlling thier own numbers. I hope they soon remove the 5 fish limit now as there are bigger fish and replace the zero size limit with a slot limit protecting all Pike over 30 inches up to 40 inches. This would insure that we would have eaters from 24 to 30 inches and trophies to 40 inches.
I enjoy Ice fishing for Pike but I agree that some people misuse the resource. Pike should be regulated on a lake by lake basis but that requires a lot of complaigning by anglers to get any D.N.R. to move in that direction. I would like to see more good Pike lakes managed for trophy size and not numbers as they are now in Michigan. Kingfisher
Edited by Kingfisher 2/8/2010 9:49 AM
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | One other good point about eating big pike. It takes many years for a Pike to reach 40 inches and eating one is bad bad bad . Mercury and lead content is high in bigger pike. Michigan lists large game fish as unhealthy for consumption. Other then Salmon which grow faster and feed on suspended forage Most all other game fish are toxic at trophy sizes. Bass, Walleye, Pike, Muskie, carp and even large perch are in that 13 to 14 year old status and being bottom feeders they accumulate high levels of mercury and other heavy metals. I have my own slot for our table. W e eat no Pike over 30 inches, no walleye over 24 inches and no perch over 12 inches. W e dont eat Muskies, carp or any bass types. W e dont keep large Salmon even though they get a clean bill of health by the D.N.R. . Education of people on these toxin issues will help many people to put the bigger fish back. Kingfisher |
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Location: Illinois | I like to ice fish pike. Good eats, and fun to reel in on a tip up. My lake is over run with the #*^@ed things since they were introduced years ago. There went our class A musky lake status. |
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Posts: 285
Location: NE Wisconsin | Studies here in Wisconsin have shown up to 80% of the northern pike harvest on some lakes occurs through the ice. So if any reduction in harvest is deemed necessary, it is logical to target this season. But it will never happen. |
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Posts: 32926
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Because it's not necessary.
It DID happen on several bodies of water, so 'never' isn't true at all. Franklin, for example, where there was a very restricted limit for several years trying to build a trophy fishery. It was released back to 5, no size limit, a couple years ago, because the project results were not what was hoped for. |
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Posts: 285
Location: NE Wisconsin | 80% of the northern pike harvest on some lakes occurs through the ice. So if any reduction in harvest is deemed necessary, it is logical to target this season. But it will never happen.
What I meant is, winter ice fishing, where the largest part of harvest occurs, has never better targeted alone, for reduced harvest. In the summer virtually no one uses 3 lines for pike, but in the winter virtually everyone uses at least 3 lines, outside of their shanties. Anyone who says winter ice harvest does not effect pike size structure in northern WI, has not seen a relatively small lake in northern WI before and after it was targeted by winter pike anglers. |
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Posts: 580
Location: deephaven mn | Another supporter of a slot.
No need to stop fishing for northerns in winter. Every lake is different and in a lot of cases harvesting the smaller pike
will actaually premote the growth of trophy fish. |
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| jonnysled - 2/8/2010 9:39 AM
common sense on the pike ... take what you'll eat and respect a big fish with a release.
i would support a slot limit that would protect fish over 30" though.
jonnysled isolated the crux of the problem and the solution. Makes me ill that some of these folks will let these big fat hippos have 15 minutes to swallow a big sucker minnow and gaff them and let that big green 36-40+" log lay on the ice to get frozen soild. What are they doing with a fish that big? They're not mounting them, with treatment like that. Let them big girls go.
Depends where you're from and how you were raised too I guess. A close friend of mine is a hardened muskie guy and is 100% C&R......but he'll think nothing of gaffing a 43" pike and eating it. Eats several 14-19#ers a year. Just puzzles me.
The Missi River could quite possibly be the worst area I've ever seen for folks mowing down on giant pike and thinking nothing of it. |
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| So, are we just assuming that the DNR or whoever sets the regulations on size or limits is neglecting this fish? My take will generally be (regarding Pike), that I'm depending on them to manage the waters properly. And if they are allowing a particular harvest, then I'm OK with taking some now and then---whether it's to eat or mount or whatever. Pike are not Musky, and don't need to be managed in the same way that Musky do. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | guest ...
i can give you a list of waters over-run with small muskies that need a similar "slot" mentality. the slot is alive and thrives throughout bass country and results show not only for maintenance of waters, but also for recovery (i use sardis lake in mississippi as an example) ... if northern states fisheries managers were to employ slots, i believe that many species would benefit.
to me slots are just logical ... and are foundational in conservation-minded people. |
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| You make some valid points about the benefits of imposing slot limits for Musky and Bass management in certain lakes. But I had Pike in mind when responding.
My question is whether or not Pike actually need more protection than they are presently being given by current fishing regulations in the view of the DNR studies of various lakes populations, and in whose view or for what particular reasons.
Is the DNR managing the Pike as a sport fish, or as a nuisance fish in each particular lake? Does it not depend on the lake? Musky guys often don’t want them in the same lake at all. Even some of the Walleye and Bass guys see them as vermin. But in the overall picture of managing multiple species in healthy balance, how many large Pike do you actually want (need) for a healthy balance in some lakes?
Those are bigger questions than I can answer, so I depend on those who are supposed to be educated and trained in those areas to manage that effectively for me. They are supposed to be doing what’s best for the environment, and not one particular preference group. I doubt that they always get it right. But they’re going to be closer than most arm-chair advisors. (And, I am for being coservational. I just don't believe that it has to be imposed by another drag-net type of law.)
So again, until the regulations change, I’m assuming that the DNR has allowed for harvest at this point in time with some intelligent reasoning behind it. When they change the regulations to include a slot limit, then I’ll accept that the time has come for it to be necessary.
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | noted above is the success rate of the pike spawn vs. that of muskies. there are a whole lot of people smarter than me hopefully working all this out, but i think there are some happy mediums that could be had with slot protection on lakes.
the all or nothing (both ways) of the pelican resolution could be one where a slot compromise might apply? i don't know ... just know i'd hate to see what's been accomplished overturned without the mention of it. i have a bad feeling about that one based on the local conversations that are heard loudest.
why not leave the public out of it and let fisheries people dictate the rules based on the best for all species making it to their potential? or is that an out of the reach nervanna? |
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| Nice to see the pike releases on the ice fishing videos. Those fish may spawn in the next 60 days and produce more fish. Perhaps they will make some young angler's trip if caught on rod and reel during the open water season. Well done. |
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Posts: 32926
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | We don't keep Pike that size, open water or ice. The trip yesterday was to a lake we know holds some big girls, and we try to do our part to make sure it will into the future. |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | Not completely related, but really when you think of it, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Old sage ice fisherman are always gonna spear pike and muskies alike. It happens up here constantly. They fish for and keep them as well. Law or not, they still do it. One chuckle head in this area even put a video out in 2007, catching and killing muskies and pike through the ice.
God bless anyone's efforts to curb any type of abuse on a fishery, but I believe it is the future generations that we really need to reach out to and educate about proper ethics, handling, and the moral rights and wrongs when it comes to our fisheries.
Maybe Outdoors First Media, Musky Road Rules, or some other fishing institution should have clinics or camps for kids to teach them about fishery moralities. I used to have hourly on the water kids clinics, but I became a babysitter for kids who had no interest in fishing. Camp Fish was probably one of the greatest things for the education of future generations, but since it's demise, there are very few educational places for them to learn about conservation.
I think kids are sorely left out when it comes to real education about the futures of fishing. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | These big fish need to be protected. Big pike in Northern Wisconsin NEED a protected slot. 1 fish over 27", no harvest 27" to 40", something. These slots have been very successful in other areas but they won't work here? The resorts would be up in arms again about how a regulation change like this would kill tourism. I'm quite disgusted with the lack of progressive fish management in Northern Wisconsin and how the 'tavern' vote can dictate fish management. We are currently in the process of drafting some resolutions to take to the right people and try to get some things changed.
This kind of stuff really gets my blood boiling so I'll leave now before I type something stupid.
JS |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | Jerry,
If you can get the video of that guy killing muskies through the ice I want it!
You can call me or e-mail.
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Posts: 32926
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | J,
Before you do, take a look at the recent N Pike protected slot experiment on Franklin and the results of same. Also, be aware any 'resolutions' that are politically based and not applied to the available DNR channels open up much the same can of nasty the 'early muskie season' legislation out of Eagle River did. That knife cuts both ways, and it's just plain wrong. Ask the guys in MN trying to protect big pike about the why of it.
I'd love to see a protected 28" to 36" slot on many trophy potential lakes. It sure is working on many waters in NW Ontario. Getting that past the Conservation Congress and public vote....a tough one.
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Posts: 646
Location: In a shack in the woods | Jerry
If I'm reading this right you're saying it's morally wrong to spear a northern?
I would have to disagree. A dead fish is a dead fish. It shouldn't matter how the fish was taken. I spear pike but if I ever hear about a ski being speared I would be the first one calling tip. Don't let the bad apples shadow your opinion on spearing. It's actually a very cool experiance and I would suggest everyone at least sit in a spear house sometime even if they don't spear and just fish. I've gotten ski to hit my wooden decoy before. It's almost mesmerizing. |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | I'm not saying spearing pike is morally wrong, and I have done it in the past. Not a big fan of it, but I'm a catch and release fisherman. I'm more concerned with education. As for spearing, I have caught dozens of muskies with spear marks in their backs and sides, and that makes me angry. I have also been out on the ice where I have walked up on a pile of speared pike laying discarded on the ice.
Like you said, "a few bad apples" unfortunately those moments I mentioned do spoil the bunch FOR ME. I just hate to see waste and obnoxious activity when it comes to a fishery. I'm the kind of guy that gets irritated when I see a kid with a stringer on the end of a dock with a bass on it. It's just how I feel.
As a small child, I used to catch slab crappies and play crappie baseball with my oar - Until my dad educated me. If I saw a kid do that today, I would freak out. Education is important. Wether it's boating (Which many adults need as well) fishing or spearing. People especially the young, need to learn how to do it responsibly. If you are on the ice in central MN and a 48" fish swims into your spearing hole 99.9% says it's not a pike so put down your spear. Many don't. "I thought it was a pike" That's BS.
I don't disagree with responsible fisherman. If I had MY way, the spears would go away and people would be forced to use rod and reel. If spearing is to stay, which it seems to be, I just think this spearing and ice fishing culture needs more education and rules.
But that's just my opinion.
Kev, I'll send you a PM.
Edited by Jsondag 3/9/2010 8:25 AM
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Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | Gentleman, I think the truth is that not any two lakes are alike. In the Case of Muskegons big Blue lake the removal of all size limits and a return to 5 fish limits helped to remove excessive fish from the system. This has resulted in lower densities and larger Pike , better blue gill size, crappies and even perch have grown on average. This is due to less predation by thousands of hammer handles eating everything that moves. The problem now is that the big ones are also being harvested and this is why they put the zero size limit into place. Now with big pike to control the numbers of small pike its my contention that the eco system will reset itself if we stop taking the big ones for like 5 years. This would give the lake a base of 10 year old fish . Then using survey data set a slot limit that will insure low numbers of Pike but keep the average size up where they can control larger trash fish like carp and sucker, Gizzard shad and bowfin. The problem in Big blue started when Tiger Muskies were introduced in the 80's and then the program was scrapped. These larger predators controlled pike numbers until they were gone and pike numbers exploded which in turn caused stunting. Blue gill numbers dropped to all time lows and attempts to plant walleyes were eaten alive so to speak. Harvest has provided the tool to control pike numbers. It is my contention that having large Pike 36 to 44 inches in this lake will do the same thing. Healthy eco systems all have one thing in common. Large top of the line predators. Kingfisher |
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