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| wouldn't judge boats be a better system than transporting them, even more so in big waves? |
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Posts: 360
Location: Algonac, MI | Judge boats were tried on LSC, when the PMTT visted here.
The logistics just do NOT work on LSC for judge boats. Lake is 28 miles across N/S and 24 miles E/W. Not counting the river systems.
There are not enuff judge boats to go around, and also boat to boat contact is 3-4 ft waves is not a good idea. Also, cost of running boat to boat, back and forth across 20 some miles, is very expensive.
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Location: Contrarian Island | imo their system is pretty slick...those large livewells work very well at pumping fresh cold water to help the fish regain it's senses...interestingly this fish came to within 1 lb of the formula on M1st homepage...the ones I have weighed this year all came to within a lb of it too...imo weighing of a very small number of fish shouldn't be knocked..if done the right way, ie, not vertically...I have weighed a few this season and hope nobody comes down on me for it..I was more curious to see what some really weigh as it seems the terms, "30, 40 and 50 lbers" are thrown around all to loosely when most guys have no clue what it takes to actually hit 40lbs on a scale....all were weighed in the hoop of the net and no harm was done to the fish..imo weighing of a fish this way is far less harmful or dangerous to the fish than casting baits w multiple 7/0 hooks attached...isn't it?
awesome fish btw!
Edited by BNelson 11/5/2009 10:28 AM
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| ...interestingly this fish came to within 1 lb of the formula...the ones I have weighed this year all came to within a lb of it too...
which is to say that the formula is a relatively good alternative to actually weighing the fish. for someone who just really wants to know a number in pounds, getting an accurate weight and girth to use in the formula provides a pretty darn good measure.
...imo weighing of a very small number of fish shouldn't be knocked..if done the right way, ie, not vertically...I have weighed a few this season and hope nobody comes down on me for it.....imo weighing of a fish this way is far less harmful or dangerous to the fish than casting baits w multiple 7/0 hooks attached...isn't it?
the concern isn't so much about actually weighing the fish; it's more about the potential stresses related to transport and additional handling while getting it somewhere to be weighed.
Lake is 28 miles across N/S and 24 miles E/W. Not counting the river systems.
so it's pretty easy for someone to be a long ways away from the nearest certified scale on shore. even in a great big livewell with running fresh water on board a great big boat, that's a lot of time for a fish to be in a confined space as the boat runs through 3-4' waves. it's stressful, and stress contributes to delayed mortality.
for potential state or regional records such as the great fish featured in this thread, i understand the desire to get a certified weight.
at the same time i struggle to understand why getting a precise weight is that important for other fish. measuring/comparing fish in terms of pounds is an anachronism...we should let it go into the past where it belongs.
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Location: Contrarian Island | yes that is true about the girth formula but then why measure a fish? you could look at it in the net and think it's a 45"..but then measure it at 43, or 47..if you want to know, measure it..if you don't care because you think you can "get close" by looking at it then take a pic and let it go ....same with the weight...the formula gets you close but if you want to know weigh it..just like measuring a fish in my book....my point was that don't knock a guy for wanting to weigh a fish once in a while,,,it does the fish no more harm than hooking/fighting/landing/measuring/picture taking .....if your concern is over the transport to get to the scale then that is where your opinion should be focused....i do see your point that running some 5-25 miles maybe to a certified scale in large waves might be excessive...but we arent there to see how it's done and how rough it really is on the fish.
Edited by BNelson 11/5/2009 11:36 AM
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Posts: 360
Location: Algonac, MI | FWIW
We have 8 certified scales, strategically placed around the lake, accessible by boat, to minimize distance a fish would have to travel, in the event of transport.
Also, we have 18 - Board of Directors, who are trained (ie - to the best our knowledge/experience), on how to properly measure, weigh and handle a fish. This is done, when the angler wishes to register AND release the fish. These courtesy measures are NOT taken, if an angler chooses to keep a fish.
Tony's fish was caught less than 1.5 miles from the certified scale at the Thames. The water was calm, with a light SE off shore breeze, that day. A director from the MOMC led Tony, via boat, to the scale, performed the measurements, and witnessed the release. Picture below is Tony's catch in the FISH ThANKS...calm as a cucumber.
Edited by Contender 11/5/2009 12:16 PM
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 PA280672.jpg (36KB - 186 downloads)
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The bump board CPR format is really easy to use, simple to confirm beyond any doubt, and allows for immediate Catch, Measure, Photo, Release. Literally seconds, and doesn't require any judge boats, allowing the anglers to:
1) fish until the event is over, no travel time involved. All fish are called in immediately after release.
2) Continue to fish after catching what would have been considered the 'daily limit'.
3) Very fish friendly release format
I hope more tournaments look into Paul Hartman's method for recording tournament fish. Anglers Insight Marketing (http://www.aimfishing.com) already has done almost exactly the same thing for Pro Walleye events.
I think the method used on this fish is a good one if one wants to confirm the exact weight of exceptional LSC fish. |
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Posts: 95
| In My opinion the real problem on lake saint clair is the proffesional guides that gaff the fish onto the floor of the boat with out slowing down unhook it on the floor then after a couple pics throw it headfirst off of the back of the boat at five miles an hour. These captains don't set a very good example to people that know very little of the sport and think this is the way the pros do it. |
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Posts: 16
| sworrall - 11/5/2009 1:18 PM
I think the method used on this fish is a good one if one wants to confirm the exact weight of exceptional LSC fish.
There was a 60+ boat muskie length tournament on LSC this summer. Minimum length was set to 52". 6 fish were brought to shore to see the ruler. There lengths were as follows:
52"
52 1/8"
52 1/8"
52 1/8"
52 1/2"
52 1/2"
Tiebreaker was first fish to shore.
I don't know how you could do bump board CPR format with lengths like that.
LSC always gets BASHED for guys transporting fish (and it is usually by guys who have never seen the FISH ThANKS in action, or by GUEST POSTERS). In the past in a LSC event you would have seen all of these 6 fish whacked, but now with the FISH ThANK I think that they were all released.
As Contender pointed out, LSC has much larger mortality issues that the tournament angler.
Every year you see threads started by guys saying what would you do with a state or record fish. 50% of the guys say whack it to certify it, and another 50% say they would let it go. Well Mr. Jaros got to certify his catch, AND let it go.
Also, the MOMC is current working on a Program with the Michigan DNR to possible tag these fish that are brought to shore and then released. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Photo time stamp. This opens the can of cheating worms however. |
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Posts: 462
Location: Antioch, IL | don't see the transportation of fish in these livewell systems to be an issue at all. I have been involved in importing live fish and marine wildlife for several years with great success and a 5-10 mile boat ride in a nice livewell is a walk in the park. I've shipped quite a few 3 foot reef sharks from the Philippines to Chicago with no mortality. They are wild caught, packed ina styrofoam container with just enough water to cover their backs and double that volume in air, sealed and can spend up to 30 hours in transit (trucks, boats & planes) plus waiting to clear customs and fish and wildlife inspections. They are opened up and acclimated in a baby pool then a day or two later moved to their final destination and acclimated again. I bring in hundreds of smaller to mid sized fish, invertabrates and corals weekly with a mortality rate of about 1 to 2%. If saltwater fish can handle this kind of stress I think it can be argued that a muskie can handle a short boat ride. Can it stress the fish, absolutely. Can the fish survive with no ill effects 99.9% of the time, absolutely. It's a great system compared to the alternative. I am a firm believer in C&R, but I think we have gotten so consumed with super sensitive handleing of these fish that we have made them much more delicate in our minds than they really are. Please don't take the last statement the wrong way. It's very easy to doom a fish by mishandling, but if the creatures basic needs are met they can withstand much more than you would think. From the description of how these fish are being moved and treated these fish are being cared for properly in my opnion.
Congrats on a great catch and release
Edited by Fish and Whistle 11/5/2009 12:52 PM
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | mrymar - 11/5/2009 1:45 PM Also, the MOMC is current working on a Program with the Michigan DNR to possible tag these fish that are brought to shore and then released. Contender - We need to talk about this and if you have talked w/ Mike. I have the tags ready and can show all of the official weighmasters how to tag and collect a sample for aging. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Fish and Whistle - 11/5/2009 12:50 PM
I am a firm believer in C&R, but I think we have gotten so consumed with super sensitive handleing of these fish that we have made them much more delicate in our minds than they really are. Please don't take the last statement the wrong way. It's very easy to doom a fish by mishandling, but if the creatures basic needs are met they can withstand much more than you would think. From the description of how these fish are being moved and treated these fish are being cared for properly in my opnion.
Congrats on a great catch and release
We have a winner. You drove the nail all the way through the board. Well said. |
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Posts: 16
| Will Schultz - 11/5/2009 1:56 PM
mrymar - 11/5/2009 1:45 PM Also, the MOMC is current working on a Program with the Michigan DNR to possible tag these fish that are brought to shore and then released. Contender - We need to talk about this and if you have talked w/ Mike. I have the tags ready and can show all of the official weighmasters how to tag and collect a sample for aging.
Will,
This is true, I am working with Mike T., but we have a lot of things to iron out first. June is along ways away. |
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Photo time stamps are in the data of each image but we don't worry much about that. Wouldn't make any difference anyway. Each day a new and unique sticker is placed on the board and must be in the image of the fish measured on the board, and the fish is called in via cell phone when it's caught. The boards easily measure fish to 60", Muskie Bumper did a great job on them. Paul has run multiple events with many fish registered over 50" in each, it isn't an issue. |
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Posts: 16
| sworrall - 11/5/2009 2:11 PM
Photo time stamps are in the data of each image but we don't worry much about that. Wouldn't make any difference anyway. Each day a new and unique sticker is placed on the board and must be in the image of the fish measured on the board, and the fish is called in via cell phone when it's caught. The boards easily measure fish to 60", Muskie Bumper did a great job on them. Paul has run multiple events with many fish registered over 50" in each, it isn't an issue.
But 6 fish within 1/2". Imagine all the fish drama with that doing bumbboard CPR. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | mrymar - 11/5/2009 2:04 PM Will Schultz - 11/5/2009 1:56 PM mrymar - 11/5/2009 1:45 PM Also, the MOMC is current working on a Program with the Michigan DNR to possible tag these fish that are brought to shore and then released. Contender - We need to talk about this and if you have talked w/ Mike. I have the tags ready and can show all of the official weighmasters how to tag and collect a sample for aging. Will, This is true, I am working with Mike T., but we have a lot of things to iron out first. June is along ways away. There shouldn't be anything to iron out really as long as the weighmasters are shown how to place the tag and how to take a good sample. I've tagged and sampled as many or more muskies than most biologists and I would be happy to show them how it's done. Drop me a note and we can talk - [email protected] |
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | When thing people are forgetting here is that alot of these systems are installed in boats in the 29'-36' range not little boats like 18'-20r's. these big boats really smooth out 3-4ft waves. I've sent a good amount of time fishing the lake from them and its quite comfortable fishing on days when most guys wouldnt even be able to stand up in "regular" muskie boat.
esoxriebe - 11/5/2009 1:29 PM
In My opinion the real problem on lake saint clair is the proffesional guides that gaff the fish onto the floor of the boat with out slowing down unhook it on the floor then after a couple pics throw it headfirst off of the back of the boat at five miles an hour. These captains don't set a very good example to people that know very little of the sport and think this is the way the pros do it.
I started guiding here in 1984. Never met a guide or Charter Captain that uses a gaff. If there are they haven't been around long and probably wont be.
Tim
Edited by Roughneck1860 11/5/2009 3:10 PM
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Posts: 8
| esoxriebe - 11/5/2009 12:29 PM
In My opinion the real problem on lake saint clair is the proffesional guides that gaff the fish onto the floor of the boat with out slowing down unhook it on the floor then after a couple pics throw it headfirst off of the back of the boat at five miles an hour. These captains don't set a very good example to people that know very little of the sport and think this is the way the pros do it.
Umm, really? Maybe 30 years ago but not anymore.. Nice try at stirring the pot.. |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | sworrall - 11/5/2009 9:09 AM
lambeau,
I believe it was mentioned that not many fish ARE weighed any more, and therefore not many transported. I agree on the tournament context, bump boards work really well. paul Hartman has it right.
'Also - NOT every fish caught is run to shore for a weight. Most people do not weigh anything, unless it is serious business. Tony's fish is the single largest muskie ever recorded on LSC on an official scale. The fact it was done on a registered and calibrated scale, with over a dozen witnesses...is priceless. No Percy Haver or Art Lawton story here. This fish measured 56 1/8" length, 26" girth and weighed 48.50 lbs. No lies, no excuses, no guestimates...and no exceptions!!! Best of all, because of the Fish ThANKS system.. she swims another day.'
The new well systems described seem to have been devised primarily to allow anglers fishing from BIG boats to unhook to CPR the fish while keeping it in fresh, oxygenated water, something one can't do easily or at all; these are sorta like what we would consider 'salmon boats'.
Exactly. Well put. The fact that the entire livewells are picked up and carried to the scale says a lot as well. They cant even turn to hurt themselves in those tanks. Those live wells were designed for cpr fishing. Now anyone with any size boat can fish for muskies and release them. St. Clair is a dangerous body of water and requires a good size boat to fish there on any given day. Its different for inland waters where we can fish out of a low sided fishing boat.
But to answer the question of why weigh them at all? Hasn't there been enough controversy? I mean these days if you claim a weight based on pictures or formulas you get called a Liar and attacked on every Musky forum on the web. That is enough reason right there. I like it. No more disputes over fish sizes and weights. Kingfisher |
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