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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | dtaijo174;
Your point is what exactly?
To those that think guides don't put all that much pressure on lakes, ask the guides and see what kind of answer they give you.
How many times have we read on these internet sites how so and so is the hardest working guide, fishing as long as it takes to put fish in the boat. Many guides will brag about fishing 12 or more hours a day. They will camp on the "hot" spots and take them over (I've seen this more than once.) They bring clients to lakes, who then learn them and come back themselves. They tell other guides about the "new" lake and soon you have 3-4 boats pounding on a lake, along with the clients.
Then ask yourself why they leave to hit new waters?? What is the answer they will give you? It's because they can't catch fish there like they used to anymore. The pressure changes the fishing success.
Now, that is legal. Guides have a right to make a living, just like you and me.
But the guide "culture" has changed, and if you don't think they bring a trememdous amount of pressure to a lake then you aren't paying attention.
So don't just dismiss the observations of those that are seeing this.
It may whining, and wishing we had the lakes to ourselves to many of you.
But in the end there are things happening that deserve attention, and maybe need to be changed.
JS |
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| Moltisanti - 9/9/2009 4:06 PM
Have any of you Minnesotans ever been to Deer or Bone in Polk County? Those lakes have been POUNDED by Wisconsin and Minnesota residents for 40 years. Even with spearing, the quality and quantity is still there. Sure, the fish aren't where they used to be, but the cream always rises to the top. Change tactics or get left behind. WI residents dealt with pressure long before MN residents had to deal with it at all.
Moltisanti--Very good point. I have a place on Deer and as you stated the pressure is heavy on any given day. Take a stroll through the parking lot at the launch and you will see more MN plates than WI. Often see rigs parked their belonging to guides from MN. It's just the way it goes.....Do I wish there was less pressure on Deer, for sure, but it sure doesn't mean it ruins my day when I am out fishing.
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| It may whining, and wishing we had the lakes to ourselves to many of you.
nothing wrong with wishing for that, it's something we all want on the lake.
of course, i've heard someone say that MN is now paying the price of talking a bit too loudly or hosting a few too many fishermen in their boats on the "quiet" lakes. no amount of promises from someone will keep the cat in the bag once you take someone to the lake...and there's a lot of that going on in west-central MN, isn't there?
at a minimum, we've all got to share a limited resource, so we've all got to make sure to respect and care for it.
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| Perhaps rather than mistreating people for the good of muskie, these folks can treat others with care and it will trickle down to the fish.... |
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Posts: 21
| Moltisanti and guest.
First off i know the pressure on Bone is nowhere near what it used to be. My fishing partners cabin is on the lake (his home water) The people chasing those fish have moved to diferent spots. the high 30 and low 40inchers on that lake are not as appealing anymore. I think that is the topic at hand. people following the bite and piliging everything along the way. Also those lakes are 30-30 mins from the twin cities. They are the home waters of alot of TWC people. And i assume, or hope that even though those are wisc waters, people from the twin cities to contribute to some funding and success.
The story about the guys in the bar. I dont know. They sounded serious. I sat at the bar next to them for about a half hour and listended to all sorts of distrubing stuff.
I dont care where you come from, i just dont like these bite chasers. Also i dont think alot of MN fisherman contribute enough either. After all, most muskie baits cost more than the license that allows you to fish for a year. |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | mw, I am not disagreeing with you at all...I think you are correct for the most part, especially on those smaller waters where there are a multitude of properties, and some of which harbor guys/gals like us. No doubt having those out-of-stater's coming to northern MN to fish, regardless of what species they go for, is $$ for that community. By and large that is what northern MN and other states are all about....brings in a bunch of money, which is great for the state, but also as has been stated does not trickle down to the fisheries (in our specific case, muskies). Would it be nice if some of that did? You bet!! but we also need to keep in mind that our fisheries must contain a balanced population, or things really get out of whack! We cannot just keep adding more and more fish to the waters we have and call it good....that would be a very BAD way of managing our lakes.
Sure...it'd be nice to pull up to any decent looking spot and see or catch a fish...but it's not gonna happen!! It's not feasible, nor is it sustainable, nor would I think it to be a healthy, balanced fishery. I think one major thing that is not thought about here is that (I feel) MN stocking program is not solely there for creating more availability of fish...it is to sustain the populations that already exist. We didn't get big fish in waters by overpopulating them...we did it through a very well planned stocking program. Glasses raised for those involved for getting it done, and getting it done well!!
Now...a question to pose to all of you (a brainstorm/brain-fart, whatever you want to call it)... It's always nice to dream about getting more fisheries and help to maintain our stocking programs, so I will put this out there as a "carrot" so to speak. What if....bigger retailers, online stores etc were to increase the price of each of their muskie items (lures in particular) by, oh...say $1.00 that was specifically set aside for stocking purposes in the state...would you go for it, even in this economy, and with the prices we pay for lures, etc to enjoy the sport? (No doubt, much easier said than done...the logistics of this could be a bit boggling...)
I ask this because so many people have mentioned getting $$ flowing for helping to replenish the source and very little $$ go toward the fisheries themselves (license fees and some tax-payer monies). Just as an example, MN has a few different venues located throughout the state that this could work: Reeds, Gander Mountain, Online companies (Pequot Lakes), Blue Ribbon Bait, and various smaller stores that sell lures. Each has some sort of Regional aspect to them to which the monies raised in those areas could be donated directly to stocking efforts. This way, those from out of state who come to the area to fish will have a positive impact on the fishery. Just a thought to ponder...
Steve |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | GOTONE - 9/9/2009 4:58 PM
I've decided to move to Utah and fish with Sorno..........problem solved!
Dan O
Careful, Dan. Sorno starts to bring in out of state clients, and the local LDS guides and their wives will be all over him. They'll sit him right down and give him a good talking to. Those Tigers belong to the followers of Joseph Jr., and his right hand man, Brigham.
Kevin |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Um, uh, er.
Nope, I promised myself I'd stay out of this one!
C'mon out Dan, there's plenty of dumb fish to go around.
S. |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | sorenson - 9/9/2009 7:43 PM
Um, uh, er.
Nope, I promised myself I'd stay out of this one!
C'mon out Dan, there's plenty of dumb fish to go around.
S.
Jump right in, Bro. You've got family in MN. You're Norwegian for God's sake. I think.
Kevin |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Funny how Vilas, GB, Hayward, 'Bago, Madison.... just keep getting better....
KEEP going West young man....
JS |
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Posts: 547
Location: Oshkosh | What are you talking about Jason, There arnt any big fish in WI. I think people need to head to Utah!
Peter |
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Posts: 999
| Shhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! |
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| I'm not sure where the concern is really.
I mean seriously, there are tons and tons and tons of acres of muskie water in MN. Hundreds of thousands of acres where you can wet a line.
And to go along with all those acres of water, there are TONS of guides. Guides in all sorts of small, local towns. Guides at all the resorts. Guides that advertise, and guides that work by word of mouth that aren’t all over the internet. Lots of them.
The number of out of state guides that head to MN is virtually negligible. It’s a blip on the radar of the total number of guides in MN. It’s statistically insignificant.
Also, out of state guides aren’t the only ones that don’t pay the taxes on a cash exchange. I’m sure in that cash based business, there are quite a few local guides that don’t pay their taxes. And their numbers are large enough to again make the out of state guides impact close to nothing. All guides should be paying their taxes…I’m not condoning what they do. But I encourage everyone to look at the bigger picture.
In addition, as many have said, if these out of state guides didn’t travel to MN, there would quickly be a local guide to soak up their business. Essentially the effects of delayed mortality from increased guide trips on a given water would remain unchanged with or without them.
The main reason the traveling guides catch attention and focus is because for the most part they are well known all over the muskie world. They write in magazines and have fishing DVD’s. They promote themselves, and we all know their faces. It’s psychology, we will pay attention to the guy we recognize rather than the 20 unknown faces that are behind him doing the same thing. When these guides hop on a lake, we know their boat. We recognize them. But like I said, if they weren’t there, another guide with a less known face would be in their place…along side the 20 other guys that are already there not catching our attention to begin with.
If guides bring in out of state business, that’s awesome for MN. But But it’s not a ton, and in reality, the fishing is what brings people there. The fishing is awesome. And with that awesomeness comes greater fishing pressure. It’s not due to out of state guides bringing people to your local lake. It’s because a local guy told someone about it that couldn’t keep their mouth shut
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Halfpint - 9/9/2009 8:32 PM
The main reason the traveling guides catch attention and focus is because for the most part they are well known all over the muskie world. They write in magazines and have fishing DVD’s. They promote themselves, and we all know their faces. It’s psychology, we will pay attention to the guy we recognize rather than the 20 unknown faces that are behind him doing the same thing.
They remind me of famous TV chefs, and I don't mean that in a bad way.
Kevin |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
You are exactly right. People pay attention to them. That's why everyone wants to go where they are fishing. That's why where they are at gets burned out, and then they move on.
The publicity they put out there is a bullseye on whatever lake they happen to be working.
That's what I can't understand. The local guides I know tend to keep hot bites a secret, they don't want to attract attention to lakes that aren't getting hordes of 50" hungry anglers on them.
That's the difference in the guide culture now, that's why people don't want the "circus" coming to town. It's not just the guides, it's the entourage that follows them that scares people (litterally, it really does).
So, there is a difference in "local" guides, and guys who go lake to lake, promoting and showcasing the lakes they are on, and then moving on to the next.
Good, bad, right or wrong the traveling guides are causing resentment among anglers.
Maybe that will change, be nice if they'd just spread out, and park on an area. People will be attracted to the name (guide), want to fish with so and so to learn.
But, it is what it is I guess.
JS
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Posts: 724
Location: Southern W.Va. | I haven't posted on here for quite a while but this time I'm gonna give my $.02
As an "out of state" fisherman I can say that , without a question, the internet, Muskie Inc, and other forms of imformation thast are available are the MAJOR causes of fishing decline. If it wasn't for the internet, I would have never fished any of the trophy waters like the "Big Pond", the "Big V", Cave Run, Lake of the Woods, Webster because I probably wouldn't have heard of these waters. It is not "out of state" guides that have brought on the preasure that is seen on these and other musky waters, but it is a fact the musky fishing is enjoying greater numbers of fishermen . That , along with the fact that there will always be a limited number of musky available can only mean that instead of having the lake all to themselves, they will be more people using these waters. That being said, to me the biggest thing that I look at is not the number of fishermen or guides but the number of fish being taken from the water. CPR works , we all know that but a speared fish has little chance of making it . Like its been stated before , if you write about it and I read it then I and many others will probably be fishing it.
As far as "local guides" only , then don't let out of state contractors come and bring their crews to build our schools and businesses. Maybe we should band out of state apple growers or potato farmers from selling their products anywhere but "local". Seems dumbs to me.
C.J Cantley aka Mauser |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Mauser - 9/9/2009 10:06 PM
I haven't posted on here for quite a while but this time I'm gonna give my $.02
As an "out of state" fisherman I can say that , without a question, the internet, Muskie Inc, and other forms of imformation thast are available are the MAJOR causes of fishing decline. If it wasn't for the internet, I would have never fished any of the trophy waters like the "Big Pond", the "Big V", Cave Run, Lake of the Woods, Webster because I probably wouldn't have heard of these waters. It is not "out of state" guides that have brought on the preasure that is seen on these and other musky waters, but it is a fact the musky fishing is enjoying greater numbers of fishermen . That , along with the fact that there will always be a limited number of musky available can only mean that instead of having the lake all to themselves, they will be more people using these waters. That being said, to me the biggest thing that I look at is not the number of fishermen or guides but the number of fish being taken from the water. CPR works , we all know that but a speared fish has little chance of making it . Like its been stated before , if you write about it and I read it then I and many others will probably be fishing it.
As far as "local guides" only , then don't let out of state contractors come and bring their crews to build our schools and businesses. Maybe we should band out of state apple growers or potato farmers from selling their products anywhere but "local". Seems dumbs to me.
C.J Cantley aka Mauser
I find your post confusing. Are you saying musky fishing is in decline? Are you saying that too many fish are kept? Seems to me the number of large fish being caught is increasing, and CPR is most likely one of the primary reasons. Granted, the Internet puts information in front of a lot of people, but you're also blaming Muskies Inc. for a decline? Isn't MI generally considered a positive factor as far as the development and protection of musky fisheries?
You mention spearing in your post, but I'm not sure how that relates to the discussion of more pressure and out of state guides. They're not spearing or keeping fish as far as I now.
You say the Internet is a negative factor, yet then state without it, you would have never heard of or fished a number of major trophy waters. Are you saying that as an out of state fisherman spurred to travel by available information, that is is you and people like you that are causing a decline in musky fisheries?
Maybe I'm just tired, I know I'm not drunk, but I have no idea what point(s) you are trying to make.
Kevin
Edited by MuskyHopeful 9/9/2009 10:39 PM
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Guest,
As a cabin owner on Deer, you know what pressure really is, no doubt. Anyone remember the Lindner/Spence Petros tape when they put 23 muskies in the boat in one day? That put Deer on the map. And BAM, truckloads of Minnesota folks were out there. The Minnesota DNR learned a lot from that, but never paid for it. You can't overstock, it's harmful to the resource. You can't understock if you can get the resources, especially where there isn't natural reproduction. In fact, everyone in the muskie community who pays attention learned what happens when overstocking and overfishing takes nature out of balance, based on what has happened on Bone and Deer.
That said, Wisconsin is taking on a new format for musky management, based on what Minnesota learned from us and what we learned from Minnesota recently. I think the fact with Wisco has 790 musky lakes compared to MN's 116 or whatever is a testiment to what WI has in store for us in the future. |
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| the productive run of this thread is apparently complete, as it's devolving into personal and inter-state attacks that have needed to be removed.
please try and remember the points of agreement: trying to protect and expand a shared resource all across the muskie's range. respect it and respect each other even when the viewpoints differ.
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