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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | Okay, so my parents live on a private lake, and they had a pretty big fish kill this year. So, they are having a meeting tomorrow to talk about restocking plans. Most of the residents are for restocking fish, and in the past 10 years, they've had an excellent fish population up until this years fish kill.
However, there is one neigbor that is opposed to putting any fish in the lake, and he pretty much wants the lake to remain dormant with no fish at all in it. (note, they have already stocked 120 or so LM Bass in it already this year).
My question is, will putting no fish in the lake be bad for the lake? Will it become algae infested and into a giant mess if there aren't any fish in there to "clean the lake" so to speak? There's only one neighbor that is opposed to stocking, but they are looking for some ammo to quell his opposition.
Any links to information, studies, or any information you can provide will be really helpfull as in the past, they've had a very good fishery with big bass (up to 6-7#s), some big tigers (up to 52"s) and even some big pure muskies. Panfish populations were strong as well as a few walleye and pike.
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| Not an expert but I would assume that a winter kill would have not really had a big impact on the main predators of the lake. Those bigger fish musky and bass would have the strength to make it through or so I would think. With that being said I'm always hearing about fisheries being affected negatively by huge baitfish classes whether its perch, shad and I think I heard in the case of Mille Lacs a tulibee explosion was thought to be some cause of the slower fishing last year. So if panfish and weaker older fish were killed off creating a lesser food base for those bigger fish could'nt that make for some better fishing? At the same time it could create a lake of emaciated starving fish, but I would tend to think that it will rebound itself maybe even make the bite a bit better till then. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Need more information Joel...
How big is the lake, how deep is the lake, what is/was the trophic status of the lake (eutrophic, oligotrophic, etc), what is the natural forage base, are there any creeks or streams feeding or draining the lake. Were the native species stocked, or do they reproduce naturally in the lake? (Or, is that a new goal of the landowners?) That information would be be helpful. If they lake had a large winter kill, it doesn't sound as though it was very deep. But the ecosystem sounds like it was apparently quite balanced--given the presence of the species you mentioned, and the size attained by the muskellunge that were in the lake. I wonder; does anyone have any idea of just how many fish were killed--or better yet, how many remain?
Has anyone run this by the local Fisheries Biologist for an opinion? If it's a private lake, they wouldn't have jurisdiction per se, but I bet they'd be happy to give the land owners some recommendations. But I guess the most important question is what does the majority (of land owners) want? If it truly is a private lake and everyone is an equal partner in ownership, then the majority should rule. One landowner's opinion shouldn't take precedence over the majority--nor should that one opinion negate some good science, IMO.
One last comment I would make is that if there is still a significant fish population remaining in the lake, common sense would say that it might be best to shoot for stocking fish of the species that were lost. As I alluded to in the first paragraph, it would be nice to have *some* idea of just how many fish were left in the lake...for all species if possible. Then you could use this information to decide where to concentrate your efforts. For example, if the lake is at it's carrying capacity for LM Bass, then you obviously don't want to stock any more of them. Also, if the land owners are shooting for a lake with natural reproduction, then you'd have to consider the overlapping of the various species' spawning habits & habitat.
Although I've asked several (OK, many) questions, it shouldn't be too hard to get basic answers for most of them. And armed with some basic information, you might even be able to find similar lakes (at similar latitudes) to use as a template for the lake in question.
TB
Edited by tcbetka 5/31/2009 8:45 AM
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Posts: 462
Location: Antioch, IL | jaycbs74 - 5/31/2009 8:41 AM
Not an expert but I would assume that a winter kill would have not really had a big impact on the main predators of the lake. Those bigger fish musky and bass would have the strength to make it through or so I would think...
Without knowing the specifics of the die off in question I can only assume the it was due to low oxygen levels. Bigger fish are not as tolerant of low O2 levels as smaller fish. (If you've ever had an aquarium lose power, no water circulation = no new oxygen, for any length of time you will notice the bigger fish start struggling and will die first. |
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Location: Racine, Wi | Thanks for the responses so far guys.
Tom, to give you a little background, there's usually a little winterkill after winter, but this was a massive die off. There weren't many muskies left in the lake, but there was minimal natural reproduction occuring with the 'skis. However, I think there were 8-9 maybe more that were found dead. My thinking is that is most of the population that was remaining. Even the bass, which were really doing well, had a large die off. I'm going to take a cruise around the lake today to see if I see any bedding bass, but we haven't seen any bass by my parents house, and other residents have said the same. We aren't even seeing any gills around. Just a bunch of fingerling pike (which they are trying to get out of the lake coincidentally).
The lake is between 20 and 25 acres, and is spring fed. I'm not sure of it's age, but I think it was created about 15-20 years ago. It has a max depth of 20', but there are only a couple of areas with that depth. There are areas with good weed growth, but mainly the shallow sandgrass.
I think that the majority of people on the lake are for the restocking, but there is one individual that is apparently being stubborn, so my dad asked me to see what kind of information I could dig up to support stocking fish. The residents are very influential since not many of them have much fisheries (or fishing) background, so they can be swayed with some good information, one way or another. They are having a meeting on Monday to see what kind of restocking (if any outside of the bass they already stocked again) should take place. My dad has been working with the pond biologist that sprays the weeds and algae to keep it clean, and has some stocking recommendations, however for some reason, the one guy against it still seems to think it's a bad idea to restock.
Keep the responses and questions coming. Once I get out there today, I'll report back with what I see. Last time I was out, we just saw and caught the stocked bass (10-14"ers). We'll see if I can get to the shallower area of the lake and can find some bigger, or original fish. |
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Posts: 462
Location: Antioch, IL | Hey Joel,
Do you know what his specific reasons for not restocking are? |
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Location: Racine, Wi | Not sure at this point Dave. I'd have to ask me pops what the reason(s) are. Although, those with egos and those that want to be controling tend to speak up for issues like this. That's why I hesitated to get involved, but I figured, I'd at least give my dad some things to speak on. |
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Location: Oregon | I'm curious why the one guy feels it is a bad idea to restock? It seems there are far more positives than negatives that come from a lake with fish.
Jed V. |
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Location: Ogden, Ut | Well Joel, I realize you requested info from experts, but you're getting my take on it anyway... 
If the pond usually only partially winterkills, there's probably a remnant population of most everything that was there before ice-up. Over the course of several years, you will probably reach an equilibrium state again - but who wants to wait for that? And who knows what shape the assemblage will take in the interim? The best bet is to stock it w/ a representative suite of critters that most of the landowners around the pond find at least somewhat desirable. Yeah, that does sound like a selfish plan, doesn't it? I knew you'd like it.
Now if you want a bit of ammo for the 'nay-sayer', hit him w/ this: Rabies. I don't want it, you don't want it, and most likely all of the other neighbors don't want it. You see, the smaller fish in the ecosystem (those we commonly refer to 'minnows' and/or 'bait')are very effective predators on mosquito and midge larvae. Without minnows, the mosquito and midge population explodes; leading to an increase in the populations of critters that eat them. Adult midges and mosquitoes are one of the favorite prey items of many species of bats. As we all know, bats are relatively frequent carriers of rabies. Mammals that contract rabies rarely live. So if the 'no fish' neighbor wants to avoid a lawsuit from those of us not wanting rabies, he'd better fall into line!
Oh, if he doesn't buy into the whole rabies theory, hit him with a probably increase in West Nile Virus - also from mosquitoes.
Yep, pretty asinine arguments really, but based in reality albeit they must be blessed w/ some enhanced probability. But really no more idiotic than the 'no fish because I don't want them' argument.
Now, I'm guessing you already know how to control the minnows...
Everything in balance, the way it was intended.
S.
Edited by sorenson 5/31/2009 1:05 PM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I'm not sure I would buy the whole rabies theory Sorno--but you get an 'A' for effort on that one! BUT... I would actually buy the theory of an increase in mosquito numbers, for the reason you mentioned. Basically without fish to eat the larva, all you have is one big puddle which becomes a breeding ground for bugs. And indeed, West Nile Virus is a very real possibility, along with some other skeeter-borne encephalopathies. Here's a place to start gathering information:
http://rarediseases.about.com/cs/eeencephalitis/a/041903.htm
That's a great angle, and one worth playing. If nothing else, it should work because it's true, for the most part. It will be very hard for him to defeat that argument.
TB |
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Location: Sandusky, OH | If the lake has higher productivity (nutrients), my arguement would be over the potential for algal blooms without sufficient predation on the small species (minnows) that feed on zooplankton. Those smaller fish are the ones that will survive a winterkill best, repopulate quickly, and graze down the zooplankton population, thereby releasing phytoplankton from grazing by the zoops. If background productivity is high enough, you have a recipe for blue-green angal blooms.
If productivity is low in the lake, as in the case of a lot of spring-fed lakes, the arguement probably doesn't hold up. Good luck.
Eric |
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| Not sure I'm buying the whole "spring fed" thing. Unless you were there when it was dug and saw the water gushing from the earth, or there's one really close to the shore that you can see actively bubbling......I'm not sure how you know it has springs. And......
Mostly not buying it because your fish shouild have lived if it was. Unless some got locked in an isolated part or something.......whatever. Nevermind. Neither here nor there.
Get a windmill air pump or a floating wind aerator. These things save fish from tiny ponds to couple hundred acre lakes to big reservoir.
-Eric |
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Location: Racine, Wi | Actually, that's exactly how the lake was created. Also, to further confirm it's spring fed status, you can see where the springs are each ice out as those areas are the first to open (and also the places where people usually fall through in the winter when they don't know they are there). The last confirmation would be by water temp differences we've taken near the springs, which confirm that there is cooler water being pumped in there during the summer. Hopefully that clarify's the status.
Okay, now that we've cleared that up, I found out that the opposition guy is (this is pretty funny) against stocking because the 'gills bite his toes and legs (and his grand kids) when they are swimming. Being the tenacious predators they are, I can sympathize with his concerns.
I like the bug argument, which is valid and would really suck if that came to reality. Thanks for the info guys.
Also, Eric, they have talked about getting an aerator to help prevent a really bad winter kill, but in the 12 years my parents have lived here, this is the worst one they've had. Usually they are minor, and are more than likely helping with the balance of the lake. |
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| Tell the guy to wash the toe-jam from his feet once in a while, and those dangerous gills will leave him alone. |
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Location: Racine, Wi | LMAO!!! I'd love to.  |
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Location: Ames, Iowa | Tuffy- The Iowa DNR (and I'm sure the Mn DNR) has a webpage that details some generalities of stocking ponds- ratio, that sort of thing. Tell the guy to shave his lower legs so the bluegills won't nip his hair. A healthy pond has fish in it that create waste that is needed by the plants, that help supply the water with oxygen (nitrogen cycle) and provide places for invertebrates and smaller fish to breed/hide that in turn are part of the food base for the stocked fish. Without fish it's just going to be a noxious weed filled mosquito pond.
djwilliams |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | tuffy1 - 6/1/2009 9:11 AM
SNIP...
Okay, now that we've cleared that up, I found out that the opposition guy is (this is pretty funny ) against stocking because the 'gills bite his toes and legs (and his grand kids ) when they are swimming. Being the tenacious predators they are, I can sympathize with his concerns.
Ah, a classic opportunity to argue for the stocking of more muskies! You'll be needing them to control all the bluegills that are biting at the hair on the legs of the children around the lake... A weird angle to be sure--but, any port in a storm and all. And you need muskies instead of pike because they grow bigger and thus can eat more bluegills, of course.
Be careful though--if the guy watched the recent "Monster Quest" episode on the man-eating muskellunge of the Midwest, he might not buy this new strategy!
TB |
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| You'd think your cabin/property would be worth more $$$ if the pond had fish in it.... |
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Location: Antioch, IL | Ha! I was guessing it was a money issue or he didn't like young anglers running through his yard. If the bluegills are his problem that's all the more reason to stock bass & muskies. Can dig a pond and never have a human add 1 single fish and it will develop a bluegill population before long. (eggs stick to bird feet and get transferred from lake to lake) The only way to keep the gills in check is with predators (bass & hordes of children armed with zebcos and nightcrawlers). Having experienced the terrible pain of a vicious, blood thirsty bluegill clamping it's powerful jaws on to my tender nipple and arm moles, I can relate to his concerns. I would insist that bass and muskie be stocked immediately to keep these vampires in check. |
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