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Posts: 433
Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | Have you ever noticed a difference in success when you have switched from the kicker to the big motor even though you maintained the same speed?
I've seen it happen a few times where the big motor outproduced the kicker. I don't know why. I have been thinking about the noise the motors make which must be quite different at the same speeds due to the rpm difference of the props and motor vibrations.
I have noticed that in rougher conditions the kicker will flucuate a little more in speed than the big motor probably because of the bite the big prop gets. Other than that I'm still scratching my head why this is. I'd love to get a handle on this as to when to use the big motor and when to use the kicker.
I pretty much just use the kicker until I get to the speed where you are just about running the kicker wide open. All I know is that the kicker will suck a lot more gas than the big motor when you have it at full throtle vs. just a hair over idle on the big motor. But where I troll in Canadian shield waters I'd sooner use the kicker because if in the unlikely event that I find a "new" rock I would much rather have the kicker be the victom.
Anyone else notice a difference between the motors? |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I have never noticed that here on Green Bay. Most of the time I am using the kicker, but find I must use the big motor when heading into the wind--which is usually 15-25mph in the fall. We are used to 2-3 foot chop out in the southern bay, as that happens more often than not it seems...at least in late November. So with the top-set canvas deployed, I find that it's much harder to control boat direction in the wind if I don't use the big motor.
So I guess I am simply not sure that there's a difference--on the one hand, most fish come when the kicker is running. But then again, most fish come on days when the waves aren't 3 feet...and thus the big motor isn't being used anyway.
Have you noticed a difference in depth with these observations? I guess what I am asking is whether or not the water depth makes a difference--maybe in shallow water, the fish spook more easily for instance, and thus the quieter kicker motor might out-produce the big motor? In deeper water, maybe the fish are farther from the boat (vertically), and may actually be attracted to the louder engine?
Interesting observations though, and a great thread!
TB |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | Big motors are not recommended to troll with all. Even the Mercs with the RPM control are not built to troll with. That is why kickers are on so many boats now, even on models that are equipped with motors under 200. The new outboards are built to run, not to cruise. Too many hours at low RPM's can cause the engine to spit and sputter - Hard start -or not start at all, due to fouling of plugs and carbon build up in the motor.
Of course there are people out there that will claim that they have been trolling with their 250 for fifteen years and never had a problem. But many of the new higher performance models are meant to spend most of their running time over 3000 rpm's, and when they are primarily used for low rpm trolling they gum up and problems occur quicker.
In rougher water the kicker can pop in and out of the water, usually as a result of the Kicker being mounted too high. I think kickers are a pain, but if you like to troll and your motor is High Performance or over 140 the pain will most likely have to be necessary.
Jerry Sondag
Headshaker Guide Service |
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Posts: 1529
| running bigger waters the big motor is usaully the way to go. trying to maintain speed and direction you need the thrust. turning is better with the big motor. unless you are doing a long run with following seas you will be hamstrung on l.s.clair |
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Posts: 433
Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | The last couple times I've seen it make a difference were in Canada on trout water, running lures in 25-50 feet of water. Once when the kicker was just not getting it done in 3+ footers, twice in normal conditions, and the other time was different because the kicker died and I was forced to use the big motor. But, there was also another variable that last time, it had changed from cloudy for days in a row to sunny for just a few hours and that just might have influenced the fish more than the motor used.
All I know was a few times for muskies the big motor seemed to make a difference and not always because it improved boat control. I just wish there was some way to be sure what the results were from and why.
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| Big Motor $14,000.00 or Kicker Motor $2400.00---Ware One Out--What Would You Like To Spend? |
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Posts: 656
Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | A couple of comments. My big motor is a Yamaha 90 horse 4 stroke, my kicker is a Yamaha 15 horse 4 stroke, both are tiller motors. The main motor is Direct Injected. So I will disagree with Jasondag about larger motors having problems with extended periods of trolling speeds. Perhaps he is correct when refering to large 2 stroke motors. My old 40 horse 2 stroke had some of the problems he refers to that my 90 does not have.
I use my kicker usually to postion the boat for casting in high winds and waves when the electric bowmount won't do the job. I don't use it much for actual trolling unless I'm on a rare walleye trip and backtrolling. Even at 500 rpm the big motor is to fast to drag a livebait rig. I usually use the big motor for forward trolling.
As for the noise factor. The big motor is quieter than the kicker. At least the above water noise is quieter. How much noise is produced underwater, I don't know and have no way to compare that.
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I troll with both the kicker and the Verado, as the situation requires it. I used to worry about using the big engine to troll, because people always told me that it was easy to "wear it out." However I do not believe that anymore. I think that today's 4-stroke engines are more than capable of trolling indefinitely--as long as you take steps to run the engine at higher speeds periodically, to help clean the by-products of combustion. And of course you need to change the oil regularly as well...every 100 hours, or possibly every 50 if the engine trolls most of the time.
Case in point, my Verado. Mercury has designed the SmartCraft gauges to actually allow fine-control of engine RPM during trolling operations. I can adjust my engine in 10-20 RPM increments, within a certain range. For instance, I may find that 810-820 RPM gives me 2.75-2.8 mph in 2-foot chop with two anglers. By using the +/- control on my SmartCraft gauge, this is easily set. So if Mercury didn't approve their engines for trolling, why do they offer these capabilities with SmartCraft technology?
Go on over to http://www.thehulltruth.com and use the search feature to find one of several threads about operating today's 4-stroke engines at trolling speeds. In the research I've done in the matter, it seems that as long as the proper maintenance is performed at the recommended intervals, there are no issues.
TB
Edited by tcbetka 5/3/2009 10:31 AM
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | fishpoop - 5/3/2009 6:34 AM
A couple of comments. My big motor is a Yamaha 90 horse 4 stroke, my kicker is a Yamaha 15 horse 4 stroke, both are tiller motors. The main motor is Direct Injected. So I will disagree with Jasondag about larger motors having problems with extended periods of trolling speeds.
A 90 is not what I consider a large motor - I do believe I said at the end of the post, "140 or larger".
Big motor? A 90? My kicker is a 90. 
Edited by Jsondag 5/3/2009 4:01 PM
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | My main motor is a 115 Yamaha and no kicker motor. However, I do sometimes troll with my 65 lb electric trolling motor. By using the trolling motor, it is much easier to locate the lure precisely and one can really slow it down. For instance, one can slow roll a spinner bait with a trolling motor pretty easily. Try that some time when the fishing is slow. |
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Posts: 267
Location: Lake City,Pa. | We have a 50 two stroke a 9.9 four stroke. we will use one or the other depending on the wind conditions. The 2 stroke will make your eyes water ( we run the smokeless oil to) depending on the wind conditions, but in rough water the 50, more boat control. The 9.9 in 3 to 4 footers on Lake Erie will not cut it. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Just curious...how big of a boat are you running on Erie?
TB
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Posts: 267
Location: Lake City,Pa. | Cestliner Superhawk, Full windshied model Deep V, 16.5 spec. it will handle 3 footers ok but 4 footers time to button up the front covers and head for home.
Edited by PunchandJudy 5/4/2009 6:13 PM
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Posts: 1185
Location: Wishin I Was Fishin' | I can't speak for a kicker motor, but I have noticed no diference in fish production between trolling a 200EFI merc and a 40Hp carburated merc. I find it humorous to see boats with a kicker on GB using the big motor. The only reason I can see for a kicker is to troll slow for maybe walleyes or Herbies slow roll (I will be trying this).
I troll with my 97' 200 EFI merc on my bassboat. A kicker just wouldn't be right on a bassboat. I know trolling from a bassboat isn't either but it was all I had and many muskies are caught out of it. I can get it down to 2.4 MPH.
I have had absolutely no problems with it. I have 5 years of many full days trolling Green Bay on it. I did change the plugs once in all the years but it didn't really even need it. I do run Seafoam in 2 tanks of gas every year to clean the carbon. I only use Merc 2 cycle oil. I troll a solid 10 hours, put it in idle, stow all the gear and not even a sputter when I hit it to get back to the landing.
I do not think it would work to troll from a carburated 150+Hp engine. That would be asking for trouble.
I understand the argument about high cost of repairs to a big motor over a small one. It is always in the back of my mind, but I would fix it myself anyways.
Last year I did build a trolling boat out of an old 70's Crestliner Ski boat and put my dad's 93' merc 40 hp on the back. It is now my primary troller. I did it because trolling from the bassboat was a pain in the butt and I wanted something dryer and safer for the big water. I still do use the bassboat for trolling on trips when casting and trolling will occur. I've had thoughts about going to just one big deep V boat, but I like to cast from the bassboat way to much.
So trolling with a big motor is a viable option.
Edited by Jomusky 5/6/2009 9:53 AM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Great points Jo.
Also, don't forget that the newer engines have better warranties these days. My Verado has a 3-year warranty, and you can add another 3 years. So if the engine is protected by a warranty, and Mercury doesn't specify that you *can't* troll with their engines--then what's the harm?
I personally don't think there is any, to be honest--though I can understand the logic of preferring the kicker. But when the sails are up on my Tyee in 3 footers and 25-30 knots of wind, the kicker just doesn't get it done...
TB |
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Posts: 1220
| As another Verado owner (225HP) who has a 9.9 Pro Kicker as well, I'd also say that you have to forget some of the old lessons when looking at what the new equipment can do. Personally, while I am not mainly too much of a troller, I never even start the kicker unless I am trying to get through water too shallow to navigate with the big motor. I am convinced that you can just about idle the #*^@ thing all day with no harm to the motor. It is a dignifyed, quiet and elegant performer. Marty Forman |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Marty,
What do you think about the power steering issue with the bigger engines?
I have been told that the power steering pump on the 6-cylinder Verados uses more electricity than the the output of most kicker engines can produce. Therefore it will run the battery down, possibly resulting in a starting issue for the big engine. If you've not used the kicker for a prolonged period, you might not have had an issue--but I just wondered about it. Having a 4-cylinder (without power steering), I don't have the issue.
Any experience on this?
TB |
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Posts: 333
Location: menasha wi 54952 | Good topic. Everyone has their opinion. Here is mine.
I for one have had many problems trolling with non kicker motors. I have always had tiller model boats for my rigs and loved the double benefit of space and motor use. I am anal when it comes to taking care of things and the amount of upkeep associated with it. Because of trolling 1000s of hours at idle speeds up to 5 mph I have worn out a 98 Johnson 40, a 01 Merc 60 and a 03 Yami 90. Because of the cost and loss of money associated with the repair I now do all of my possible trolling with a 9.9 or 15 4 stroke kicker. When I need to use the big motor because the kicker just does not cut it I do but for the most part I am running the motor that can easily be recycled. I understand that todays motors are more reliable and the right one can and will do the job, but you will have a hard time convincing me not to put a kicker on my rig.
MR |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Oh I definitely have a kicker on the boat--but I think your idea about a 15hp unit is a great one. One of the reasons I don't use the 9.9 Pro-Kicker when the wind is over about 15-20mph, is that (especially with the canvas up) the 9.9 just doesn't seem to give enough directional control, and I find myself turning the wheel constantly. It seems that I am always fighting the boat. I am strongly considering replacing it with a 15hp Pro-Kicker.
Another point about having a kicker, is for the added safety of having two engines. I am much more comfortable heading out 8-12 miles into Green Bay with two engines hanging out back there. If I had my "perfect" musky boat, it would be about 25 feet long with a pilot-house, and twin Honda 150's (or Verado 175's). The salt water guys troll with these engines for literally thousands of hours (especially the Honda guys, as those engines have been out much longer), without problems. I've talked to more of them than I can remember, over on The Hull Truth (THT) forum.
I noticed that at least two of the engines you've worn out were two-strokes...is this correct? What was the Yamaha engine--maybe all three were two-strokes? I am not implying anything, but from what the THT guys tell me, the bar has definitely been raised with today's new four-strokes.
TB |
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Posts: 1220
| In reply to Tom's question, I have found that the alternator in my Verado is like a major power plant, I sort of doubt that I could possibly lose enough output at even idle speed to drain more than I am adding. Having said that, however, I still would not be concerned because if I were trolling all day with the big motor, I will still have three fully charged deep cycle batteries for the bow-mount and if my cranking battery went South, I would just take out my trusty jumpers and pop it right back on. Marty Forman |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | well i run my optimax 135 all the time for trolling.. i also keep seafoam in the tank often and after i do troll with it.. i run her wide open for a bit.. i have not ever had anyproblems and alot of our lakes here are idle lakes anyway . i have not even had to change the plugs in years, they still look good and she runs great..(knock on wood lol)...bill |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Junkman - 5/7/2009 3:54 PM
In reply to Tom's question, I have found that the alternator in my Verado is like a major power plant, I sort of doubt that I could possibly lose enough output at even idle speed to drain more than I am adding. Having said that, however, I still would not be concerned because if I were trolling all day with the big motor, I will still have three fully charged deep cycle batteries for the bow-mount and if my cranking battery went South, I would just take out my trusty jumpers and pop it right back on. Marty Forman
Sorry Marty--I didn't phrase my first question well enough. I meant have you heard of anyone losing battery power after trolling all day with the kicker...not the Verado.
Because the 9.9 Pro-Kicker has only a 6-amp alternator, I have been told (by my dealer) that the main start battery tends to discharge over a day of trolling. This happens with the 6-cylinder Verado engines, because the power steering unit is electrically powered. So it's always drawing current from the battery--whether or not the Verado is running. And because it draws current faster than the kicker's alternator can replace...the battery runs down.
The 15hp Pro-Kicker has an 11-amp alternator, so I bet this wouldn't be an issue if a guy had that kicker. I have a 150 Verado (no power steering), but simply don't feel my 9.9 Pro-Kicker puts out enough power to power the boat in a wind, so I am strongly considering moving to a 15hp Pro-Kicker sometime this season. But due to the concerns about this power steering issue, I would simply recommend that anyone buying a boat powered by a 6-cylinder Verado, look into the issue and consider maybe upgrading from a 9.9 to a 15hp kicker. The price difference (new) is only about $300 as I've been told. A small price to pay to avoid a huge pain in the butt later. It will certainly cost me more than that to replace my 9.9 now!
TB |
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Posts: 333
Location: menasha wi 54952 | "I noticed that at least two of the engines you've worn out were two-strokes...is this correct? What was the Yamaha engine--maybe all three were two-strokes? I am not implying anything, but from what the THT guys tell me, the bar has definitely been raised with today's new four-strokes"
Yes, the two engines were two strokes. You can imply all you want. I know they are not made for trolling. Eventually they will fail. I have proven that. The Yami was a four stroke. Multiple heads replaced and finally a rebuild before it met the maker. I agree that the bar has been raised on todays motors as that should be expected over time. I just have a bad taste in my mouth and will spend the little extra to ensure my big investment last a little longer.
MR |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | No problem at all--I haven't owned but one 2-stroke outboard engine in my life. So I simply haven't trolled with them.
My opinions come from owning four 4-stroke engines, and talking (via email & forums) to many owners of four strokes on various forums--mainly, the forum of The Hull Truth. I will say that there are a number of people there that seem happy with the E-TEC engines, including time spent trolling with them. So please don't take offense, as I have just about zero 2-stroke trolling experience.
That being said, I think a lot of the owners of these engines (both 4- and 2-stroke) are on larger boats, like 28-36 foot offshore boats. Never having operated one of these boats, I can only imagine that the engine RPMs in such trolling applications has to be higher than on the engine on my 19-foot Lund. So it might be an apples-to-oranges comparison, to some degree. But these engines are operated for hundreds of hours at those speeds, and none of these folks have ever really said anything negative about trolling with these things, whenever I've asked.
TB |
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Posts: 169
Location: Houlton, WI | the whole point of a kicker is to go slower and be quieter, The big motor shouldnt be used if you have a kicker. But it wont make that much of a differce |
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