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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | You guys with your fantastic paint jobs and intricate molds are setting the standard high,very high. As a former manufacturer I have to ask this question. Do you think al the fine detail is nessesary to catch the fish of choice or is to catch the fishermens eye. I think your doingan unbelievable job but doubt all the detail is really needed.
Pfeiff |
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| Depending on the lake it could be. Clear high pressure waters I feel the more detail the better, dark water low pressure conditions require less detail and better action and sound. Like you said this is where baits are headed and I think it is awesome and I believe it is only the beginning of realism for the future. Also being a previous baitmaker cant wait to see the next evolution........Keep up the awesome work all as the basement is where it all begins!!.......Doug Bradley |
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| Not at all necessary to catch a fish.......................the patterns I apply to my baits for my personal use are bare bones quickly spattered paint jobs and the occasional black sharpie highlight........heck I don't even clear coat them. The detail is almost entirely for the fisherman in my mind. |
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Posts: 284
| I personally have not really created many baits. What I can say is these guys probably don't do it for either reason that you list. If that was the case you would see these baits sold in tackle shops through out the midwest. Basement bait building is a hobby. As with all hobbies you try your very hardest to do your best, to succeed. When you do, to do it better the next time. Think about it everybody here musky fishes for fun. We could could go out and pursue 32" fish because a 50" isn't really needed but as you put it the standard gets set very high. The fact is that no bait needs to have a fancy paint job to catch fish. I have caught plenty of fish on baits where the paint was completely stripped off. Like wise where paint jobs do sell fisherman that is not the intent or I don't beleive so anyways. These guys are ARTISTS and just so happen to be bait makers. Their intent is to prove to themselves that they can make something that looks incredible. And then they happen to share it with the rest of us. |
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| I agree that a chewed up bait or a simply painted bait will catch fish no doubt and generally most of the detail is geared towards catching the eye of the fishermen.
On the other side of the coin, a fish following on gin clear water on a lake that has more pressure than a kids swimming pool on an off peak activity window I will tage the highest detail I can get...
I know this is a very specific situation but if it makes the difference between a fish hitting or not, Ill take the detail..
I as with all Musky fishermen spend alot of money and time getting to the fish and alot of time and energy reading and patterning them in preparation for the strike so as to not waste any of those The detail pays off for me.
Most fishermen can trigger a strike durring a feeding window and durring peak activity but triggering the big ones to strike the rest of the time or on a real close follow can be as simple as natural detail..
I am by no means saying these other opinions are wrong but this detail makes a difference for me at times and I feel it is worth the money....Doug Bradley
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Posts: 480
| I believe it boils down to confidence. If the lure you are fishing with looks real and performs real you are going to feel better about hooking up with that lure. If it has gills carved in, foil on the sides, unbelievable realistic paint and finish, 3d eyes, that the maker put a high level of thought and expertice into, that gives the angler even more confidence to catch fish. Is it the most important part of the catching puzzle? No, one still has to be in the spot, operate the lure effectively, and be there when fish decide to eat. Building confidence definately helps catch fish. Duff |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | I think by far the most important factor is action followed by color. The details, they are mostly just a fun part of building.
RM |
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Posts: 516
| Hey All,
I'll throw in my 2 cents here.
I am an educational TV junky and a guy with an interest in biology and ecology as well as an esocid-centric fisherman.
For those of you who watch Discovery Channel, Animal Planet, National Geographic Channel, etc., I believe that you will agree, nature is harsh and that there is little room for the weak, the injured or the extraneous.
The above said, fish see in color and their vision in water is many times better than that of our own. Thus, I think it fair to say that if fish did not need to see in color or need to have such acute vision in water, they would not.
It is because I know that they see in color and because I know that their vision is so acute that I take seriously the multitude of colors and bait styles.
I personally have found myself in situations where I had been moving fish, pike to be exact, with a certain bait in a certain color only to break the bait's lip. After replacing the bait with an exact twin with the exception of color, I caught nothing.
I have also had experiences where I arrive at my usual "fishin' hole" and start throwin' my "favorite baits" only to catch nothing; no muskies whatsoever. Following a color change and / or bait change, I moved fish within a few casts.
While agree that many of these beautiful works go a long way towards catching fisherman, in my opinion, they do the same on the fish. I also agree that a fish which receives lots of pressure, is in low density and is well fed, will need all of the encouragement we can muster in an effort to get that fish to strike one of our generous profferings 
To finish:
I will state that one of my most successful baits on muskies has been a regular-sized bulldawg in a stock pattern. However, my personal best was on a custom Muskysnax jerkbait and I caught this fish during season when moving fish was extremely difficult and my bulldawg had served me not.
In the same vein, I went fishing for pike with a local legend twice this past winter. He told me that he only needed one rod and one lure, a jig, to out-do me. The first outing was fairly even and I caught all of my fish on a custom Phantom and a custom TripleD. The 2nd outing, he torched me. However, the biggest I caught on this lake in almost 3 years came on the closing day of the season, late in the afternoon, following a wind shift out of the north which shut the fish down. The bait: a lipless crankbait in a detailed bluegill pattern that had previously caught me nothing. I tried all of my usual presentations along with a few others until I finally started moving fish consistently on this bait. Even more interesting, this stretch had been fished heavily earlier in the day including the morning while the fish were more active.
Keep those great baits comin' guys... I'm savin' up and WILL be buyin' |
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Posts: 2061
Location: Belgium | not necessary. I found that flash and contrast in the patterns, combined with the action are the triggers. The details are fun to do though, for yourself ... not for the fish |
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Posts: 351
| I cannot speak for all builders but...
Like all things, including fishing itself, when you build baits, you go through phases.
On another board, someone wrote about the phases of fishing that went something like this:
1. To catch a fish, any fish.
2. To catch lots of fish.
3. To catch big fish.
4. To enjoy the day and approach it with primary emphasis on enjoying the process and camaraderie as much as the "catch."
Building is not all that different from what I've seen...
At first you just want to build a bait. After a while, the mission is still the same, to build a bait that could catch a fish, but the process almost becomes detached from the fish and the fisherman/user.
It becomes to be about pushing personal perimeters to new places, to try to add higher levels of natural realism or even a completely different "unnatural" paint pattern, or to try new materials, to use materials from some other medium such as photography, pottery, woodwoking, etc. In that respect, you no longer focus on the fish's reaction...that is a given...or the reaction of the fisherman...which is also a given. Instead you are caught up in trying to build the perfectly executed bait and the perfect bait is a function of your own personal standards, not just the fish or the potential user of the bait.
In that respect, and at the risk of sounding high-minded, bait building becomes very much like art at that point. Its a medium for a sort of personal expression of creativity.
As with any form of art, there are few "right and wrong" answers or methods and because of that it is hard to say what is actually "best." Different styles of approaching the same mission are evident and stand as proof of that.
Lastly, everyone is different. Some just want to build a good bait (which is fine itself), others are interested in exploring a bit to see where they can take it all.
The bottom line, in my opinion, for all builders is that it is like fishing itself...if you're having fun and enjoying it...you're doing it right.
At the end of the day, we're all just grown-up kids playing with our toys.
As to the question of detail mattering...How can it not? If you've reached the stage where you're chasing muskies, you've already PURPOSELY taken on an almost illogical challenge and you do all you can to try to FOOL a creature that eats what it wants, when it wants. You do about everything in your power to put the odds in your favor...otherwise, you'd logically be using live bait and bobber, wouldn't you? |
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Posts: 1663
Location: Kodiak, AK | Great post fatfingers. Word for word I agree. I don't build lures, but my flies are along the same lines. They'd probably not warrant the "ooohs," and "aaaaahhs" these lures do, but amongst the fly community, they're intricate, involved and complicated. I'll spend 45 minutes to over an hour on each fly, and alot of guys wonder "why" when I could catch the same fish on a Clouser or Deceiver.
Well, I just enjoy the process of tying and building rods and it's half the entire enjoyment of fishing for me. I think I'm expressing myself and my love of the sport. I'm probably the only one that sees "expression" in my flies, but meh....I do.
Jeff |
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| You're not the only one!!! |
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Posts: 1663
Location: Kodiak, AK | No I didn't figure I was. But I get it alot; "dude it's dumb to use that fly on a pike because they'll bite it off, or you'll snag it on something and lose it. You should tie flies that are more easily replaceable and won't cost as much...." Steelhead flies go along the same lines. Alot of guys fish traditional feather wing flies for the love of it. |
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Posts: 79
Location: michigan | Lure making is a labor of love. I tried the business end, and it turned out a labor.
I for one am not going to lose my passion for making baits.
Color I believe is key at times. Alot of variables to throw in the mix.
I would agree with those that said vibation/movement, then flash.
My buddy had a bait that I made him, And it caught alot of toothies for him. After awhile it got water logged and shredded most the finish. but that bait still landed musky with the nateraul color of pine.
I will say that there is some amazing talent out here, and my hat is of to ya. I believe as well the more life like, the better the odds.
Jim |
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Posts: 1270
| I'm not a lure maker but I do love some of these beautifull lures the guys are making.
My take on this is that baits do not need to look ultra presice to catch a fish, otherwise how do we explain all the fish caught on bucktails that IMO don't look remotely like anything a musky naturally eats? But I don't think the realistic finishes hurt anything either so why not use a good looking lure? We all know a 400lb. fat, ugly woman will do anything a skinny little 100lb, smoking hot blonde will do put what would you rather have?
That being said the best looking lures in my boxes are the ones all ripped up with tooth marks!
Keep up the amazingwork guys! |
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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | I've been amazed with some of the stuff on the site. Some of the guys on here were doing this back in the tacklemaking.com days (blast from the past) but it seems like every day the quality of what's being done is taking a step up. It's almost become a competition between some of the guys on this site to produce the greatest bait and it's amazing to watch. I've even tried to buy one of Tigger's baits but my wife told me to get a lawyer if I ever paid $100 for a bait!
My personal opinion though is that superfine detail is not the difference - if it did things that don't look like fish at all would never get hit. Bucktails, Bulldawgs and Big Joes look like nothing that swims but they get hit all of the time even in clear water. When you get back to basics these are really just fish reacting to a stimulus in the environment - can they see it, can they hear it, and can they feel it? Build a bait that's highly visible (either size, color, or action can do this), creates noise, and creates vibration and you'll have a winner.
Awesome stuff and I am envious everytime I try to paint a bait.
Shane
Edited by ShaneW 3/31/2008 4:50 PM
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Posts: 271
Location: davis,IL | I don't make baits for anybody but myself and a few friends. I can tell you though that I do it to keep my sanity through the winter when I can't get out fishing. |
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| I find there are 3 stages of a muskies attitude.
#1 Active.......Will eat
#2 Neutral.....Can be triggered to eat
#3 Inactive....Most likely will not eat
These levels of activity change throughout the day while peaking at least twice a day sort of like being on a roller coaster. As the activity is on the upswing the fish are generally getting more active untill peak and the activity steadily drops off.
Bottom of the rollercoaster = inactive
Halfway up = neutral to active
Top of coaster = active and and so on
Therefor if we tie this rollercoaster and mood swing into a feeding window, with the right bait/ action/ sound/ appearance the fish will eat at the peak time and can be triggered to eat on the upswing and down swing.
Now if we only have a small peak window, say 15 min, and we are counting on hooking up within that window we are limiting our potential because we only effectivle targeted the peak time..
As we are on the lake, if we are able to see periodic follows , we get to see the roller coaster of attitude as it progresses and drops off.
Assuming you are in the right location:::::
Throwing the wrong bait at peak time will probably get bit.
Throwing the right bait at peak time will probably get bit.
Throwing the right bait with the right action at a neutral time should get bit.
Throwing the wrong bait at neutral time most likely will not.
What I am getting at is::
Right location
Right bait/action/detail even on upswing and downswing will increase your odds and extend the feeding window increasing your hookups.
Now add in high detailed baits and your odds get better yet...It is just a matter of increasing your odds..
If you put 20 musky guys on the lake with plain bulldogs, somone is going to hook up at peak activity and most likely more than one even though it is a plain old bulldog...Add in gin clear water/gets tougher/add in pressure/ gets tougher.
Put 20 guys on the same lake with different styles of highly detailed baits converting neutral fish on the upswing and downswing increasing their feeding windows and I guarantee there will be more hookups... Doug Bradley |
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Posts: 351
| "Put 20 guys on the same lake with different styles of highly detailed baits converting neutral fish on the upswing and downswing increasing their feeding windows and I guarantee there will be more hookups... Doug Bradley"
Excellent post, Doug. I have had very similar thoughts and I really enjoy building because of the ability to have more control over what is shown to the creature and how it is shown. I consider the control over the action of a bait to be part of the 'detail" in bait building, although its a detail that can't always be photographed and displayed.
Of course, action of the bait can be modified in a variety of ways...lip size and angle, weighting, even line tie placement are part of the considerations that I think about and change to suit those upswings and downswings in the feeding cycles that occur with mysterious irregularity. But one example...I am of the opinion that a fish that follows might often be converted (to the net) by a modification of or a combination of modifications of the above. Of course a different color or the addition of flash by way of foiling might also be that certain be in the mix something when a fish is alllllllllmost ready to snatch that thing that caught her attention. Its a great puzzle and the details are tools harnessed to unwind it all...lol, sometimes...we hope.
Heck, control over the size of the bait alone is a great tool to have in your bag of tricks. Furthermore, what is commercially offered by the "big" manufacturers is usually that which appeals to the greatest "market"...not necessarily the almost ever-changing situations in which we actually spend time on the waters.
Chasing muskies is necessarily a thinking game.
Vince |
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Posts: 516
| Hey Doug,
Agreed with FatFingers... excellent post and I will add an addendum to my earlier post in that it is the sum of the parts rather than the individual pieces that increase our odds.
The statement "is the detailing necessary to catch fish; probably not to "catch fish". To catch more fish, bigger fish and catch more consistently, I agree that the more factors one can put in a fisherman's favor, the greater the likelihood he / she will get a follow, get a strike, catch a fish.
Better action, different action, better color, different color can and probably does make a difference. I believe that I've experienced it.
How many times have we seen a fish come up on a bait and almost touch it with its nose only to turn and disappear. This happens even to the most experienced anglers. I've often wondered: if this happens where I can see it, how many times does it happen where I can't see it? Maybe a change in color or action would've been the difference.
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Posts: 278
Location: holland | i believe for 90% in the action of the bait and 10% for the color.
details for fish to catch i dont believe that,a fish is a fish,simpel as that.
but.....
it is fun to give a bait some details for yourself,thats treu. |
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Posts: 141
| A good topic, I dont think fine detail is required as Iv caught plenty on just natural wood while testing, If the going gets tough I find that darker colors rather than detail works fine. Some of the finishes on here are amazing though and a credit to there makers so keep it up. Heres a reguar type of pattern I use to good effect.
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