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| Popped into my head this morning, thinking along the line of predator/prey relationships. Have muskies adapted themselves over time to sense danger? Like the idea of hearing/sensing a boat coming and then seeing lures? My thought here is if the fish has been caught before...how might the fish react differently? Experiences, thoughts?
Steve |
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| Correct me if I am wrong but dont mature muskies stop feeding after being caught multiple times? I know this is true in bass.
I know if I bit into a hambuger and giant metal hooks were shoved through my face and throat.. then I was reeled up into spce where aliens measured me and took picutures of me... I would never-EVER bite into a hamburger again. EVER![;)]
MUSKY ILLINI
"Be quiet, Brain , or I'll stab you with a Q-tip"
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| I would have to say that muskies aren't that evolved. Who knows how many boats went over their heads before actually being caught. I also don't think they can identify the difference between lures and food except for maybe the lure they were caught on. Even then, they probably won't remember for too long, but they may very well vacate that location and never return. If it's a good spot another fish will take its place. Depending on their environment, they may be more spooky in certain lakes or at certain times. I think fish can become conditioned, but I'm just not sure as to what extent. |
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| It has been proven that fish can be conditioned. There are experiments that show they can be "taught" to push on a certain color feeder to get a positive reward. But, that is a repetitive stimulous/response situation. How repetitive is catch and release and is it enough to condition a fish?? Good question.
Conditioning is a different question, however, than whether a musky has an instinctive behavior to "flee" for safety. I think it is obvious they have such a defense mechanism. Take pike for example. When ice fishing and you approach a tip-up.... if you run with heavy foot steps, as you approach the pike will take off like a rocket. If you slowly and quietly approach, they usually will not run. When I see muskies sunning themselves in the back of mud bays in the spring... if I drop something in the boat or make a loud noice... all you see are clouds of mud where the muskies once were. Same goes for a shadow from above. Ever notice that if you make a cast in their direction and the shadow of the lure crosses their postion... the spook. Even before your lure hits the water!
Whether a muskie can get conditioned to the presence of a boat, the sound/feel of a trolling motor, a certain lure, etc. is a very difficult question to answer. I'm afraid we will have to rely on observation to try and answer this one. What has been your experience???
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| I had a few interesting experiences while tracking muskies on Eagle Lake.
1) Shortly after putting a transmitter in a 21 pound male musky, and attaching a ping pong ball to his tail with a piece of mono, so that we could get confidence with the receiving equipment, I tried to find him. I was motoring along and the signal was getting stronger. I rounded a point and came to a bay. I spotted the ping pong ball in the back of the bay and shut the motor off. At that point I was about 150 yards (at least three casts) away from the fish. I stood up in the boat without making any noise. At that very instant, the muskie took off like a shot! Talk about "spooky". He was an interesting subject, but that is another story.
2) One of our goals after putting transmitters in muskies was to recapture them and "barf" their stomach to see what they were feeding on. The only simple/practical way to do this was to locate them and then try to catch them by angling (using a barbless single hook lure). I located a mid sized female still in the spawning bay after spawning. I managed to get her to hit. It was windy, but there was an island close by to get behind and work on the fish. As I was leading her there with the electric motor, she thrashed and got off. She immediately left the spawning bay and went to deep water, never to return to that bay that summer. Weeks later, I located her near one of the outer islands near deep water. On one cast, she followed the lure to that "dreaded green boat". Upon seeing the boat, she immediately bolted for the nearest deep water. I had to turn the electric on high to follow her. She bolted from the shallow saddle where she had been to 18 feet of water, where she went to the bottom and stayed put!
3) A mid size male, that had been lost for a few weeks (he had traveled over 10 miles to spawn) was found using a weedy shallow bay and adjacent deep water (50 feet) for feeding. After many attempts he was captured and I pumped his stomach. A partially digested cisco about a foot long (that he had been graphed near two days earlier in deep water) was found in his stomach. After release, he too left the area, never to return that summer. He was later found using an area about a mile away. When "raised" with a lure, he too, upon seeing the boat, immediately left the area never to return that summer. He then relocated about two miles further away!
Do they remember? You be the judge. Are they spooky? Some are, and the males are the worst, based on my tracking experiences. Fun stuff...
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com
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| Wow Larry great info thanks for sharing it!!!
However, I have a question and I dont mean it to be arguementive. Where is the "controll group" in tracking studies? How do we know that muskies dont behave that way you described above in a unstressed environment? Again I am not disagreeing with you I am asking cause I dont know.
MUSKY ILLINI
"The killer awoke before dawn
He put his boots on
He took a face from the ancient gallery
And he walked... on... down the hallway,baby"
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| All living things somehow sence danger, or they are no longer living. Even Ameobas react to something that's not healthy for them. The instinct to survive includes reacting to danger.
However, exactly what muskies precieve as danger is not known!
I suspect that different levels of noise is perhaps one of the last great unknowns in fishing, and far more important than color, as it can be senced from a far greater distance.
Doug Johnson
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| Larry, makes one wonder how any fish are caught after a period of time! I found your post very intriguing + helpful. From what you guys studied it does make me wonder how long this fleeing tendency might last, if it is a life time thing or what.....also what Doug said about the sound/noise factor...yrs. ago a buddy + I were on a flat point in very clear water throwing Pencil Poppers for rockfish + there was a school of small minnows swirling around the anchor rope; me buddy coughed + the school scattered in all directions...I was surprised at how they could sense such a common disturbance.** Did most of the fish head for + stay in the deeper water after being caught? |
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| Larry,
Great feedback. I knew you had "evidence" like that and was hoping you would share it. But, for argument sake.... did you also observe some fish that behaved the opposite? You know... had no fear of the boat or trolling motor? Just curious.
Also, I think Spongy raises a good question. How long do they "remember"? The studies I've seen on fish in captivity would suggest that it isn't very long. To condition you need repetition. |
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| MuskyIllini: In the situation described, there can be no "control group". In the senario's described, these observations were possible only because the fish had transmitters in them. Because of that, it was possible to follow them wherever they went (they couldn't hide!). Do angler caught muskies without transmitters act the same way? No way to know, but I suspect, at least in Eagle, that they do.
Sponge Bob: In Eagle, "most" of the muskies tracked (and all of the largest ones, both male and female) appeared to do their feeding in deep water and also had a warmer (7 degrees average) shallow area that they frequented as well. My hypothesis was that this was their digestion area. While that would be very difficult to prove, my example of the one fish barfed (there were others taken shallow with deep water forage in them) caught in the shallows with deep water forage in it, lends itself toward that thinking. While there are some who may disagree with me, they cannot prove otherwise!
As for a direct answer to your question, all recaptured fish "moved", but with the exception of small males who never went deep, all continued using both deep and shallow water. None returned to the area of recapture that season, but did return in subsequent years.
Jason: Your post came up while I was responding to the others, so am editing. My responses above covers part of your questions. All recaptured fish responded on subsequent contact with "flight" without hitting a lure. Conversely, the largest fish in that study, a 54 inch female was afraid of nothing! Although I never could recapture her, I could get very close to her and she would not move. Only time I ever got her to move was when I bounced the spinner bait off her nose, and then she moved only a short distance. The male fish were by far the most spooky and difficult to get close to, even if they hadn't been recaptured.
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com |
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| Thanks Larry. That is some priceless info. It really gives us something to think about.
You said that the fish returned to points of capture the following year. Could we then assume that a fish "forgets" over the winter? Spring = dumb fish and Fall = educated fish? This will become very important as we face increased angling pressure. Also, were the fish just as spooky when positioned in deep water where they supposedly were feeding?
If fish feel MORE secure in the deeper water AND are actively feeding... sounds like a great opportunity for the fisherman.
One last question.... if your digestion theory is correct, why do you think those fish still get caught? Are they striking our lures for some other reason than to feed? DougJ believes we are catching "hungry" muskies... but just how hungry are these fish if they have a full belly that needs warmer water to accelerate their metabolism? Are those fish that get caught finished digesting (hungry again) but haven't vacated the shallows YET? Just a thought to provoke some good discussion. |
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| Jason,
I know this question was for Larry, but I will toss my two cents out there.
I feel muskies are all opportunistic give the right set of circumstances. Even a fish full to the gills can be tricked in to striking if given the right triggers. I think A fish that feeds primarily on cisco and whitefish in deep water, would still eat a wounded perch if it swam in front of it’s face while up shallow. IF IT WANTED TO. The next day the same fish might let that perch swim by un harmed.
I think the big thing to remember is that nothing is for certain. Just because the fish is there doesn’t mean it can be triggered, but if it is there and you know it is there at least you have a chance at triggering it. And that is the KEY.
To answer the original question, I do believe that musky can sense danger. I also believe that while actively feeding there defenses are down. Which is why there are hot bite periods.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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| Heh heh heh.
Now you guys know why MRoberts is my "perfect partner"...... |
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| Jason:
Since it was known that the fish tracked in multiple years did return to the area of recapture the following year, but not within the same year, it could be assumed that they do forget, but no way to know for sure.
As for them being "more secure" in deep water, I use that very principal to be successful with figure 8's. I try to get my lure as deep as possible in the water. It has paid huge dividends. As for the deep water feeding situations, one would have to assume that you have two things going for you; deeper water for the fish to feel secure, AND that they are FEEDING!!
As for reasons why they can be caught, should my hypothesis of digestion be accurate, there are several:
They have finished digestion and have not yet left the shallows.
They have finished digestion and are on the way out to deep water (the large female spent her "shallow time" 300 yards from water even 15 feet deep and over a mile from water over 30 feet deep!).
They make an "instinct" strike at a lure that lands close by.
They are "triggered" by a well executed figure 8.
They are casted to until aggravated into hitting (however, it has been my experience that repeated casting will only drive them off or put them off, but I do try a quick return cast from another angle, preferrably from exactly the opposite direction, if possible).
I have never said that they did NOT feed when shallow, just that my observations and attempts to catch these deep water feeders indicated that they appeared not to be feeding.
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com |
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| Ok, so muskies sense danger outside of their natural environment. How about in their natural environment? Any thought? |
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| Todd- just by default they have to possess natural response to percieved danger, i.e., from time they were hatched they've been subject to attack by other fish/predetors. I would suspect even a 40+ lb fish may react to the shadow of an Eagle or the sudden appearance of another predator like itself. Can they sense danger- you bet? Now, what may constitute percieved danger is a good question! When you're the top of the food chain, you may feel safe 99% of the time. But in getting there you had to move up through the chain! Gotta be some conditioned relfex's.
Kinda like-once you've heard a bullet- your instinct's automatically take over any time you hear the same sound even though you know the bullet(s) missed.
Al Warner
www.youdontknowhowtowatchtv.com |
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