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| Message Subject: A law to end swallow rig tactics | |||
Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | There are 4 or 5 threads on this board regarding the use of live bait rigs and many good points made by all sides. I knew If I added my 2 cents and joined this disscussion I would hit on something good. There is a legal solution to the problem of so called swallow rigs. Steve enlightened me to fact that manufactruers of this set up are including instructions for letting fish swallow these rigs. A lawyer can verify this for you all. This is your best route to putting a stop to swallow rigs with a law banning the instruction of swallowing hooks of any type based on the study done on single hooks. The law should state that ANY live bait rig sold should come with a warning to the fact that allowing a fish of ANY species to ingest a hook could and in most cases kill the fish in question. The law should be passed to protect SUBLEGAL fish of ALL species. This route would not take away the right of conservation minded indiviguals to use single hooks properly. It would address the issue of a company educating people the wrong way. This is very simular to the warnings placed on cigarette packages. The companies selling these old rigs with the instructions to swallow would be forced to put the warnings on thier packaging and remove the killer instructions. No hooks would be banned ,education would be in place and based on facts. This would be a win win law. Your thoughts?? Kingfisher | ||
| Gander Mt Guide |
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Posts: 2515 Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | My thought is this...what's next? Outlawing all single hooks? Because if a law is made that all single hooks of "x" size is made, people are going to go the next legal size. | ||
| MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | Very good idea Kingfisher, here is some more food for thought! It is funny as I was reading through the 2006-2007 Wisconsin Regulation book looking for possible wording for a swallow law I read the following: > It is illegal— to fish by snagging, foul hooking, or attempting to hook fish other than in the mouth. to keep foul-hooked, snagged or any fish not hooked in the mouth. > When reading it just as it appears, it looks to me like it is already illegal to fish for fish by deliberately allowing the fish to swallow the bait. As with the traditional swallow rig method you are not trying to hook them in the mouth, UNLESS you are using a circle hook. How do we get this enforced? Also the current Fishing Regulation handbook has the following paragraph: > Catch and Release: It will grow on you! Fish you wish to release, and fish not meeting the legal length limit, should be handled carefully with wet hands and played as little as possible. When fish are deeply-hooked, cut the line as closely to the hook as possible and let the fish go. ATTENTION MUSKY ANGLERS! It is recommended that you use a quick set rig when fishing for muskies with live bait. > I see major problems with that paragraph and think it should be split into two and read more like this: Catch and Release: It will grow on you! Fish you wish to release, and fish not meeting the legal length limit, shall be played as little as possible and handled carefully with wet hands. The fish should not be held out of the water longer than necessary to remove hooks, take a photograph and measure the fish. WARRNING: If live release is intended, a quick strike rig should be employed, where the hook is set immediately upon pickup, to prevent deeply hooked fish. Deep hooked fish if meeting the legal limit should be kept, as studies have shown that leaving the hook in the gullet or gut and cutting the leader regularly ends up in a deceased fish. If the fish does not meet the legal length limit it shall be let go after cutting the line or leader as close to the hook as possible. Part of that goes directly against the second sentence of the foul hooked rule, but I think it could help save some fish by pointing out they just aren’t going to live and should be counted toward the limit for that day. I don’t know, just some more to chew on! Nail A Pig! Mike | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8797 | You can't enforce a method of fishing such as setting the hook immediately -- how do you prove that they were sitting there waiting for the fish to swallow it? You can't outlaw single hooks, live bait fishing, sucker fishing, or anything that might be a perfectly acceptable way to catch fish of other species that you intent to eat. All you can do is what Kingfisher suggested and make sure as many people as possible know that letting a fish swallow hooks is a sure fire way to kill that fish. As with cigarettes, though a warning on the package isn't necessarily going to keep people from buying them. What's going to keep people from buying them is instilling a sense of responsibility in that particular angler -- responsibility to take whatever steps they can to ensure that the fish they are releasing are being released healthy. It's no different than using a big net, limiting time out of the water, not overplaying the fish, etc. While I'd like to trust people to do the right thing, my experience has been that a lot of people jsut don't care about the fish, the law, or much of anything except themselves, which is why I believe we need more than just a suggestion on the package. A line has to be drawn somewhere, but I'm not sure where that is. I don't like the idea of taking an effective tool out of the hands of people who use it in such a way that it does not kill fish, but I also don't like the idea of having a product on the shelves that was designed to be swallowed and when used as designed kills a lot of muskies. | ||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | Enforcing the warnings would be simple. Companies not complying would get the rigs removed by the D.N.R. This is something that can be done without state law being changed but by the D.N.R. directly. Stickers can be placed over existing kill instructions. Retailers could be fined for not complying as well. In Michigan its Illegal to sell a weighted treble hook(snag hook) . But not Illegal to sell a plain treble hook. In this case the rig is the culprit as lead has been poured making the hook a snagging device good for nothing else. In the case of a single hook on a wire leader many tactics can be used fishing this hook. I could put a sluggo on one or a big twister tail or a huge night crawler or slab of sucker fillet for Catfishing. This is why the warning replacing the kill instructions are the ticket. Single hooks in themselves are not killers but any hook becomes a killer if it is swallowed. Your D.N.R. can get this done because they have the facts from the study and I am sure they want to protect sub legal fish af all species . Its a win win proposal. You guys have other problems as well like your size limit for Musky. If you could get that raised you could take advantage of the toxin issues that go along with the consuming of large predators. Its a proven fact that eating large pike and Muskies is unhealthy and Michigan advises that women who could become pregnant should not eat any large Pike or Muskie. Our 42 inch size limit gives us that extra ammo to keep guys from killing them. We do however still have fools that spear these great sportfish. If you can take away the desire to eat these fish by exposing the truth about toxin levels less people will want to kill them and that would be a huge win for Wisconsin Musky programs. The main facts about toxin levels in a nutshell is a fish of 3 or 4 years of age is pretty safe to eat. Even more safe are the 3 to 4 year old fish that feed mostly on suspended forage such as trout and Salmon living in the great lakes. They are given a clean bill of health compared to a 6 year old Pike which has spents life eating bottom dwellers like suckers. Pike and Musky both are very toxin laden by 6 or 7 years and completely unedible at 10 to 12 years. All public record studies done by many universities. Bottom line people are asking for a belly full of Mercury,lead and PCBS if they eat large Pike or Muskies. Push for higher size limits as well. Kingfisher | ||
| Slamr |
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Posts: 7056 Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Enforcing the warnings would be simple. Companies not complying would get the rigs removed by the D.N.R. I didnt really need to read past that line. I fish all over WI, but buy alot of my gear from a place not 20 minutes from my house, here in Arlington Heights, IL. Regardless of the idea of DNR agents going into tackle shops and removing large J-hooks from the shelves....what do you do about out of towners coming into WI/MI/or wherever the hooks are banned? The DNR agents I talk to in WI are more than busy enough already, without having to do tackle box searches for J-hooks of a certain size.... | ||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | I never implied that any hooks would be banned. Simple law no warning no sale just like cigarettes. This takes away the kill instructions on all the packaging and replaces it with a warning. Now you have a hook on a wire leader and a warning letting people know what happens if fish swallow it. A letter from the D.N.R. to the manufacturer and letters from you to the manufacturers . A simple change of print and now you have education instead of instructions to kill. No Store will carry anything that may cost them a fine. D.N.R. officers are always in the tackle shops over here anyway. Its a no brainer and would change a lot of minds on how to fish live bait. You wont stop them all but until they die you keep telling the truth about ingested hooks. The reason I know education works is because it worked on me. There I said it . I used to be a Pike and Brook trout killer. I know from first hand experiance that someone can show a person a better way to do something. The funny thing is Im using the same rigs I used to feed to Pike and quick setting them. I lose a fish here and there but who cares, no hooks in the guts. Education works ,warnings work, Toxin levels in fish discourage eating them. These things can work in Wisconsin and Michigan and thru out the Musky world. Remember this You guys have the proof from the study to get this into law( warnings on the packaging) . It wont stop them all but it will raise a lot of eyebrows and there will be many heated discussions at tackle shops and on boats because of it. Kingfisher | ||
| reelman |
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Posts: 1270 | I guess my first post was deleted because I spoke some harsh words of this proposal so I will just state my most important point: Have you guys ever heard of the 1st. Amendment? | ||
| Guest |
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| A quick way to eliminate swallow rigs would be to eliminate fishing for muskies with live bait........just my 2 cents. | |||
| Don Pfeiffer |
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Posts: 929 Location: Rhinelander. | The d.n.r will look for a law change to be easily enforced> If its too complicated it won't get anywhere with them. They are still being beat up on the rowtrolling law. I think the post that stated no live bait for muskies is probably the easiest thing to do but it will be made a sham of also. Whats to stop someone from saying they are soaking 6 inch suckers for walleye or pike. You the angler can't control the fact that a muskie ate it. I was on the water this past wekend for about 14 hours and saw only one person dragging a sucker. I think that many anglers have taken it upon themselves not to do it anymore. Pfeiff | ||
| NateOz |
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Posts: 400 Location: North/Central WI | I'm all for getting rid of single hooks, but outlawing the use of livebait for muskies is ridiculous. Livebait is just another tool to put fish in the boat. When November comes in Vilas county, livebait is simply the most productive way to catch fish. 95% of all musky fisherman have got the message when it comes to single hooks and the other 5% are probably going to keep the fish anyway. When used properly, livebait is a sporting and effective way to catch and release muskies unharmed. I catch plenty of muskies every fall on livebait and every one has been hooked in the mouth and successfully released. I agree that there are those who don't know how to correctly use quickstrikes. Just like there are those who don't know that 10 minute photo shoots in the middle of July kill fish. All we can do is educate people. | ||
| MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | I think the Law side of the issue is too complicated, at least for me to try and wrap my brain around. Two things that concerns me with the way the Ill. law is written is it, illuminates single treble hook and single hook quick strike rigs and with the 8” limit I could see the following happening. People who want to continue using swallow rigs will use 7.5” suckers. They will end up deeply hooking far more undersized fish and they will still take a fair share of big ones. We all know big fish will eat an 8” or less bait, many people whether swallow rigging or quick rigging purposely use large bait to eliminate pickups from small fish. I could see that as a problem. What I did was email my suggested paragraph additions to some contacts at the DNR, one gentleman is going to look into getting the Catch and Release paragraph changed as I outlined above. It’s not a law but it is a good place to get some verbage out there to further educate people. Another place to do this is at boat landings. That warning could be enlarged and posted where they post the legal limits. Sounds like a good project for Muskies Inc. Nail A Pig! Mike | ||
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