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| Message Subject: Best intent for a Swallow Rig Law. | |||
MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | This should be a good place to start. Nail A Pig! | ||
| MuskyStalker |
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Posts: 317 | Illinois is way ahead of the so called "Muskie"states. It is illegal to use a single hook in bait over 8" | ||
| ghoti |
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Posts: 1283 Location: Stevens Point, Wi. | Items 2 thru 5 would be impossible to regulate. | ||
| reelman |
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Posts: 1270 | Also how would you keep someone from letting the fish swallow a sucker with a treble hook in it? If a single hook does so much damage when swallowed I would think that a treble would be even worse! My god the musky season isn't even over yet and the typical winter threads are already up! How about we talk about a musky stamp? | ||
| Rick Hess |
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| I agree . It would not help if this law went to effect. The people with intentions to kill a fish will just use trebles. The DNR is not going to sit out with a stop watch and time someone to see when they set the hook. If a fish swallows my circle hook I eat the #*^@ thing. I would never cut the line and let it try and survive. PS: I have never gut hooked a fish on a circle hook yet. I don't even know what Musky taste like. I think I'm done with this subject this is getting old. | |||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8801 | Rick, I don't think the people with intentions to kill a fish are the problem, and quite frankly I don't think they're reachable anyway. What I'm more concerned with are the people who are killing fish and don't know it -- there are still those who think hooks dissolve in a few days if you leave them in a fish. Just like with C&R, increased size limits, vertical holds, big nets, etc. this will take time. Musky fishing has changed and will continue to change, and I see the changes taking place as a benefit. More people are catching more fish and bigger fish in more places as a result of the efforts of the clubs, anglers, the DNR and the rest of the musky community. We've come a long way in a relatively short time. New laws won't change guys who refuse to change, but they will certainly change the way people new to musky fishing do things, and that's who we need to reach, because the new guys, the young guys, and those who haven't started yet but will someday are the future of musky fishing. | ||
| Rick Hess |
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| I repect your opinion and understand what your goal is. I just don't want to give up my type of fishing if I feel I have not harmed the resource . VIVA LA Circle hook! | |||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8801 | As far as circle hooks are concerned, I've seen them work very well in saltwater fishing. I know a lot of musky anglers who are like you -- never gut hooked one. I've fished with guides who use them successfully. I've used them twice, caught two fish, one was a pike, hooked in the throat. There is still blood on my cooler, my boots, and a few other things that were in the boat that day. It swam off, but I suspect it died. The second fish was a little tiger, hooked in almost the same spot. It didn't bleed very much, but it took forever to unhook. Does that mean they should be outlawed??? I don't think so. Unlike the single hook (J hook) "kill rigs" that kill a majority of the fish they hook, I don't believe circle hooks are killing that many fish. But I won't use them for muskies again, and if anyone asks I will tell them why. As far as I'm concerned if you're not killing fish with it than go ahead and use it -- it's just like anything else -- in the hand of someone experienced it works like it should. In the hands of someone who isn't? To quote a now deceased conservationist: Danger, danger, danger! | ||
| MNSteveH |
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| seems like a poorly posed question because a single circle hook can work quite well (ie can't be swallowed) and even a treble/quick-stike rig can be swallowed if you wait too long. I don't think any regulation like this could ever work. Education has to be the answer. | |||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | I see my last post on this subject got zapped. Here is a guy proposing to OUTLAW A FORM OF FISHING and when the opposition rises its zapped. Ill say it again,there is no such thing as a quick strike rig period. They are all just a treble hook on a wire leader. Quick striking is an ACTION meaning to set the hook immediately. Any hook can be used in this action including barbless single hooks which do far less damage than any treble hook. The wisconsin study proved that hooks do not disolve in the stomachs of fish . They should have used treble hooks as well in this study. The fact and this is a fact is that Muskies and Pike will and can swallow any type of hook or combinations of hooks and die from having them lodged in thier digestive systems. The only way to stop this is to educate the young fishermen and women coming up to use good quick setting methods. You can not legislate stupidity but you can educate stupid people. The truth is there are not many Muskies being killed by swallowing hooks any more. There are thousands of trout killed every year by guys feeding worms to them and many Pike killed by tip up fishermen who let the Pike swallow treble hooks . Single hooks do not kill Muskies period. Old school guys who let them swallow the bait do. When this generation of fishermen die thier tactics will die with them . Teach the young and dont insult my intelligence by telling me that a hook is a demon fish killer. I oppose any law that bans the use of single hooks for fishing any species. I support proposals that would add quick setting instructions to state D.N.R. booklets. I support seminars where demonstrations are done showing quick striking methods. I am disgusted with the companie that have marketed so called quick strike rigs trying to capitalize on this fraud. Ive been using a treble hook on a 7 strand leader for 30 years long before anyone called them a quick strike rig. The truth is if you want to set the hook quickly you just need to place your hook in the middle of the minnow instead of its nose so the Musky gets it when it takes the bait. This knowledge can be taught to anyone. Another truth is that there are more Muskies killed by guys fishing for them in water temps over 80 than by single hook live bait rigs. More killed by huge lures with huge hooks than by single hook live bait rigs. and More killed by incidental walleye and bass fishermen that have small jigs and plastics swallowed than by single hook live bait rigs. The education is working and the guys feeding suckers to Muskies are fading away. We need to leave the laws alone and keep up the teaching of the young ones coming up. please dont zap this post. Kingfisher | ||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | I have to add one thing, Esox addict put a very wrong statement out there on this thread. J hooks kill almost every fish they hook. This is the type of misguided information that fuels this fire. In Canada where they are light years ahead of us on releasing fish. Many Manitoba lakes require the use of single barbless hooks because they do NOT inflict as much damage as treble hooks. Demonizing a hook does no good in this quest to stop gut hooking fish. Am I to believe that if I use a J hook Im going to kill every Musky I catch???? What if I place this 3/0 Barbless J hook in the dorsel fin of a 10 inch sucker and set the hook as soon as the fish takes it. Have I killed this fish?? absolutely not. I just hooked her in the top jaw with my single hook quick strike rig. Truth::: Single hooks used properly do less damage then treble hooks period. The education continues. Kingfisher | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8801 | We can argue semantics all day But of you read the packaging on your beloved J hook rigs, it says to allow the fish to swallow the entire rig. You are correct that the methodology is what does the damage, but how do you tell someone who buys a rig the fish are SUPPSOED to swallow to set the hooks immediately? That's not how it was indended to be used, it's not how people are using it, and you're probably not going to have much luck getting those who use it to change the way they fish with it. A quick strike rig, while structurally similar, is not meant to be swallowed. Quick-strike/Quick-set = set the hook right away. Read the instructions, what do they say? Sure, you can let a fish swallow a Herbie rig and you'll probably kill it. You can set the hooks immediately on a J-hook rig and hook the fish in the jaw, but neither of those methods is how the rig was intended to be used. You sell a product that is supposed to be swallowed, and describe in detail how to fish it in that manner right on the packaging, and what are people going to do with it??? That's right, they're going to kill fish with it. Like I said earlier -- the people who don't care aren't going to change. But the people who don't know any better, who think it's ok because the instructions on the package said to let the fish swallow the rig? Those are the ones who are going to do the most damage. Add in the guys who think that hooks dissolve in a few days, and you have guys walking around thinking they're releasing their fish healthy and all they're doing is making crayfish food. Why take the chance? When single hook sucker rigs are used THE WAY THEY WERE DESIGNED TO BE USED, they kill a lot of fish. When quick strike rigs are used the way THEY were designed to be used, they do not. What would you rather have in the hands of all the guys in their first or second season who may be sucker fishing for the first time? | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32904 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kingfisher, 'I am disgusted with the companies that have marketed so called quick strike rigs trying to capitalize on this fraud.' Wait now, quick strike rigs are a 'fraud'? I'd disagree; Q/S rigs are an excellent alternative to Swallow rigs. You like a QS rig with a single hook? Great, show us how to build it and describe it's use, and convince us that rig is better than any other. I'd also take issue with any blanket statement on how many fish are killed by any angling method or segment if not supported by good data. The swallow rig data is from a study done by the Wisconsin DNR and was pretty conclusive; most fish will die if a swallow rig is left in the fish and the fish is realesed. The number of anglers using the rigs has decreased due to educational efforts by muskie anglers everywhere, but there's still plenty of swallow rigs in the water here in Wisconsin in October and November. What you are saying is you object to any law that will ban single hook use becuase you feel a quick strike rig can be successfully used with a single hook design. We get that! Addict has said what he said about swallow rigs and he's correct, you are talking quick strike using single hooks and you're correct, semantics at this point and a fight over who is 'more right'. | ||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | Over here in Michigan guys have been taking your beloved so called quick strike rig which is a treble hook or two on a wire leader no more and no less and feeding this rig to Pike for as long as I can remember killing thousands of sublegal Pike by letting these pike swallow these rigs. If we follow your lead we should Ban treble hook rigs over here. Your solution to single hooks is to replace them with trebles and I am telling you that people over here have been killing fish with them for 40 years. Your D.N.R. has the power in the proof to have the instructions to swallow any rig taken off the packaging and replaced with a warning . Very simular to the warning on Cigarettes. Example : Studies have proved that the ingestion of any hook type can and will cause the death of said sport fish. The Wisconsin D.N.R. recomends using quick set methods with all live bait fishing rigs. These warnings should be placed on all rigs including so called quick strike rigs. Guys, I make all my own live bait rigs I have quick set single hooks and trebles and use mostly trebles because I get better hook ups with trebles. I do know several guys over here who are more conservation minded than I. they quick set barbless single hooks and miss more fish then I do. But the ones they do hook are less harmed than my treble hooked fish. They dont mind losing a few. Show you how to make such a rig???? Thats a no brainer Steve, Its just a matter of moving the hook from the nose to the dorsel fin area. Maybe you copy a treble rig and put a large single hook on both sides of the sucker man its not rocket science. So called quick strike rigs were desinged to place a hook or two in the middle of the sucker so when bertha dog bones it she gets the hooks right away . To quick set a single hook one simply moves the hook back. If you ban single J hooks you take away the right of good conservation minded barbless fishermen to practice quick setting single hooks. Get Warnings placed on all the packaging including so called quick strike rigs. Its backed by the studies done on single hooks. I again will make the statement that the study should have included the swallowing of treble hooks, soft Plastics and circle hooks as well. The study proved that metal does not disolve in the stomach of a Muskellunge and that is the plain fact. All hooks are metal as are metal leaders, spinner blades and beads. Im disgusted with a company that would place instructions to have someone feed any hook type to any fish from Brookies to Muskies. I think the best legal action is to have the instructions replaced with warnings They did it with cigarettes you have the proof to get it done with hooks, ALL HOOKS. Kingfisher | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8801 | That raises a whole other issue -- if single hook rigs are costing people fish when they set the hooks right away, than its inevitable that people are going to do one of two things: 1. Use a quickset, treble hook rig 2. Let the fish swallow the single hook rig before setting the hook I would like to believe that guys will do the right thing if warnings are placed on the package, certainly some will. It's better than what we have now. But I also know that people are going to let the fish swallow them no matter what we do. Have the warnings on cigarette packs stopped that many people from smoking? Or is that just a CYA for the cigarette manufacturers? | ||
| Kingfisher |
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Posts: 1106 Location: Muskegon Michigan | Exactly right ,they will do one of two things. Most like me would go to a better hooking set up. I use two 3/0 eagleclaw 375 hooks one on each side of the sucker and a little single gold hook that slides on the wire for attaching to the nose. works every time. I do this because I was educated to the fact that hooks left in the stomach kill released fish. I dont think the average guy wants to kill sublegal fish or kill fish he plans on releasing. A warning would make me ask the bait shop owner why? The owner pulls out a copy of the study and says read this. But back to my old friend who uses single barbless hooks for tip up fishing. He thinks I am doing to much damage to his Pike by using treble hooks. he wants to see all treble hooks banned from tip up fishing in Michigan. He is wrong of course. But he is a good conservation minded man who does not kill sublegal pike and he uses only single 7/0 barbless hooks. When we fish together Im amazed at how little trouble he has removing his hook from the mouth while Im over there with pliers twisting and using jaw spreaders. He loses twice as many fish as I do but he doesnt care. The fish mean more to him than catching his limit. I know one other guy just like him. I know about 30 guys who still feed treble hooks to pike . They wait until the Pike stops running with the bait turns it and then runs off again. This takes forever and gut hooks more pike than I can stand to watch. I showed one guy how to quick set last winter and he didnt believe me about the study. H e gut hooked a 24 incher. good thing it was a keeper as I would have turned him in. I think the Study that was done needs more press. Needs to be on Michigan out of doors, Fred Trosts Practicle sportsman and woods and waters. The more people know the truth about hooks left behind the more people who will use better methods to quick set. Kingfisher | ||
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