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cbuf |
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Posts: 190 | Many people struggle with the question do I buy a custom fishing rod or a store bought. Below is some information relating to the selection of rods and why custom fishing rods are better than most store bought rods. Why Custom Rods vs. store bought Custom rods and quality rod builders test each rod individually ensuring that the guides are placed correctly. They do this by "Spine"ing the rod to find its natural backbone. Each rod has a unique bend and spine. This is because during the manufacturing process each sheet of graphite is wrapped starting in a particular spot. The starting and ending of the modulus graphite cause this backbone effect on the rod. Most manufacturers do not spine the there rods before putting on the guides. Improper guide placement leads to the rod twisting and deforming under pressure causing the line to touch the rod blank and poor casting performance. Everybody has a rod that when trying to throw a precision cast they know they need to aim either to the right or the left of it to hit the spot. This is caused by improper “Spine"ing on the rod. All the quality rod builders' attention is focused on the rod making it a higher quality than any store bought. Guide placement is also critical. Building a Custom Fishing Rod There are many complex items to think about when you are building a custom rod. The most important is rod selection and guide placement. Rod selection and Length When selecting the right length of rod there are a handful of considerations that need to be talked about. What’s the fish? Tuna, marlin, bass, or my favorite Musky. Understanding the fish is the first part of rod selection. Does the fish make long runs or short massive head shakes? If the fish is a runner like a tarpon it is better to have a long rod. This is because the long rod under pressure will help you fight the fish by applying constant pressure. If the fish is powerful and has huge head shakes like a shark you would want a short stiff rod that would keep a sharp, no chance bend or lack of bend in the rod. What’s the bait? Live bait, plug, spoon, or my favorite a Burt. You want a rod that can hold the size baits you are going to throw with it. You don’t throw a Hughes river 10oz glide bait on a medium heavy buck tail rod. You will over load it and probably not be able to get the bait to work correctly. The other factor that affects the rod action is the speed of the rod. Slow rods are great for live bait, but try throwing a weagle on a slow rod and you will be cursing all day. For big baits that need strong pull to get the action out of it you would want a fast or extra fast rod. The table below shows the difference. [Table] What’s the tackle? Are you trolling wire? What pound test line are you going to use? Wire line requires special guides without ceramic rings or roller guides. What pound test do you need to catch the fish? All you musky guys have been increasing your line to 80-100 pounds. If you apply 100 of pressure to a rod tat is rated for 50 it will break. It’s a toss up, if you have a rod that is rating for a 100 lbs you won’t like casting it, so you’re stuck to over load nice light casting rods. I use 50 Cortland and have never broke the line on a fish. You can catch a 50 lbs musky on 30 lbs test without a problem. My problem is 30 will snap when throwing a big glide bait into the wind and you get the dreaded professional over run. The general rule of thumb is you can go 10% - 20% over the rating on most blanks, except Diamond back which blanks are used in Fig rig and other name brand rods. These rods are so light they are already rated at the boundaries of line class. You can go over 20%-30% on Graphite USA or United. These rods are in my opinion the best blanks on the market. They use a double helix wrap when putting the modulus together. However, you pay the price. A standard musky blank I have used for customs rods over the years has been the 79MAG and Monster Mag. These blanks run from about $120 - $150 just for the blank. How are you fishing? The next question you need to ask is how will I use this rod? Will you be shore fishing or wading, or will you be fishing from a boat if so how far are you off the water? Is it a trolling rod? These types of questions help determine length. This is critical especially for you all day fisherman. If you have a 6 foot rod and you’re on a walleye boat that puts you about 2’ from the water your back is going to hurt after a day of bending over doing figure eights. I have a Tuffy Renagade that puts me high up compared to a bass style boat. The smallest rod I will use for casting all day is a 7’3” rod, but most of my rods are 7’9”. This allows me not to struggle when I do my figure eights. For musky fisherman we pull or jerk down or to the side, but if you are fishing from shore or from a kayak you generally keep your rod tip up. Generally, depending on the fish most people choose spinning rods for this application. However, there is great cool trick called spiraling that many rod crafters are doing these days for applications where you want a casting reel but you want the line on the bottom of the rod so you’re not fighting the rod from twisting. Examples of fisherman who prefer this spiral concept are grouper fisherman, bass fisherman, kayakers. The guide placement uses a mathematically formula to spiral the guides 180 degree around the rod without losing any casting ability or strength. Living only 30 minutes from Titusville the red fish capitol of the world and having a deck out kayak, this type of rod is the rod of choice. Guide placement There are 3 aspects of guide placement that will determine if the rod is an okay rod or a rod that when fishing with your buddy says” Man you just threw that mepps musky marabou farther than I threw my Manta!”, “and it was into the wind!” This is by far the most important thing when building a fishing rod and the reason why people spend the money to have custom rods. Rod spine Rod companies like Shimano, St.Criox, G-Loomis, and others general do not spine the rods before putting on the guides. The Spine is the natural backbone of the rod and it will bend to that spot. I’m not going to give away a couple trade secrets, but this is critical for precision casting. Have you never had a rod that you had to aim to the left or right of where you wanted to cast to hit the spot? After taking the rod building classes I went home and checked all my rods (over 40). Rods consistently used had a correct or close Spine. A couple rods I had never liked were way off. As you fish with the rod you just adjust to its style and not even think about it. However if you’re a bass or musky guy like me you have at least 8 rods at the ready between you and the guy in front. By having one rod that is off to the right and one that is off to the left. When you spot that large musky hiding up in the shade of a tree you want that one cast to be perfect. By not knowing which rod is off to what side that long cast might end up on the fish and not in front of the fish. That is why having the guides on the spine is important. Guide setting and distance The next most important component of guide placement is where the guides are placed. Most rods builders follow the standard setting that where developed about 80 years ago. In the advanced rod building we use other concepts that greatly improve the distance of the cast. It takes me about 100 casts to perfect where the guides should be on that individual rod blank. No 2 blanks are the same in my opinion. As I have said earlier my favorite blank is a 79Mag. I have built many of these and the guide placement was different each time. Ask anyone who has casted my rods and they will tell you how far they cast. The larger manufactures put the guides in the same place every time they build a rod. I have a G-Loomis that I can consistently out cast by 20- 30 feet with any of my custom rods. There are also some other factors that are equally important but are trade secrets relating to sensitivity, bend, and strength. Components Custom rod builders offer variety of better components then the rods that are mass produced. Rods manufactures offer these better components but you generally have to buy the tip top of the line in order to get SIC guides or better. For my rods I have found a guide that I have been using since the beginning from Batson. They have the same quality as the SIC guides, but are cheaper and come in a couple different colors. They have not broken or bent on me yet. I can put on whatever guides the customer wants that will handle correct line type and weight. Generally Shimano is good but you pay for it. Batson has both high end and low end components, and American tackle looks good, but they rust and break. As long as you’re not going to fish with the rod then American tackle is ok. Custom Wrapping The designs on the rod are made up of individual pieces of thread. Complex patterns and weaving take many hours or even days. I generally do not do them for people, because the cost of the rod gets to high. Standard wraps would be: Chevrons Simple patterning with 3-4 colors and fill Thunder birds Flags Some fish patterns And some additional patterns Custom Wraps would be: Dragons Tigers Weaving patterns Circles 3D Hopefully this information helps you in selecting your next musky rod Thanks Chris | ||
| Eric_H |
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Posts: 33 Location: Minneapolis, MN | Helpful post Chris. I am contemplating the custom v. store decision right now. What type of warranty and service should I expect from a custom rod builder? The lifetime Avid coverage and over-the-counter fig rig policy are attractive. Thanks for your thoughts. Eric | ||
| cbuf |
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Posts: 190 | The long and short of the message below is that replacement cost is on a per rod basis (25% to 75% the original value). Since I use different blanks the manufactures warranties vary which means so does my cost, but I'm a fair and honest person. All custom rods builders offer different warranties based on the blank manufacturers. Depending on the blank I use you automatically get the manufactures warranty which are generally good. I then offer free guide and tip replacement in case you catch the tip in the car door, but you have to pay shipping and handling. If the rod is unsalvageable and the blank manufacturer tells you that the rod was not meant to be used as a plank to walk accross, I will build a new one for you at 25% to 75% of the price depending on blank. Generally the better blank manufacturers will supply me the new blank for free, or at a discounted price which will reduce your cost. Then depending on the condition I will reuse the salvagable componets if they are still good. The reason I say 25% to 75% is some blanks cost alot more than others (200 or more) and I don't make that much money on the rods cost cover the cost. I'm in the process of building a matched set of bucktail and jerk bait rods where the manufacture has the following warranty. http://www.batsonenterprises.com/rodblanks.php click on the Warranty page. My other favorite rod blank come with this warranty http://www.hastingsrodmanufacturing.com/about/warranty.html I hope this helps. Chris | ||
| scott24 |
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Posts: 89 | Good info worth pondering. How much $$$$$ are we talking about? Let's say that there is no need for gussied up wraps or anything else added just for appearance. A good rod is in itself a thing of beauty, right? My particular requirement would be for a shorter butt. I'm a small guy with short arms, my Musky rods have to be held to the side. -Scott | ||
| reelman |
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Posts: 1270 | This post is not intended at cbuf, it is just a general observation: The warranty is only as good and as long as the comapnay, or custom builder, is in business or alive. Quite often someone will buy a custom rod with a lifetime warranty only to find out after a year or two that the custom maker either died or went out of business. | ||
| Guest |
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| I always encourage someone to go with a custom rod over a mass produced one. With as much time as you spend using it on the water, it should have the exact sized and styled handle and reel seat to fit your hand and should have the guides to match the line you will be using. The extra time/quality one person puts into a custom rod gives it a fit and finish that's worth the money. These are the reasons I got into making them for myself and boat partners when I find the time. | |||
| woody |
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Posts: 199 Location: Anchorage | Forgot to login, the post above is mine. | ||
| cbuf |
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Posts: 190 | To reelman, your exactly right. Many custom rod builders will not tell you anything about the componets such as the blank they used. As I said in my post I'm an honest person when you purchase a rod from me I will give you a list of all the componets that went into the rod, including the blank and number. This way if I get hit by a bus and you break the rod by smashing it in the door you will have the manufacturer to fall back on. Even if I can not rebuild the rod you will have a new blank (for free or a reduced cost) that you could give to another builder. Here is a caption from Batson "Rainshadow/Forecast blanks not covered under warranty may also be replaced at a reasonable charge. Blanks with warranties that have expired or blanks damaged by misuse, accident, or normal wear are not covered under this warranty. Batson Enterprises will advise you of the cost of replacement and wait for approval before proceeding." Here is one from Hastings "Every Hastings Rod Manufacturing blank and factory built rod come with an unconditional lifetime guarantee. This means that we warranty the blank or factory built rod for the lifetime of the original owner." Also you will not break a graphite USA by hastings, it is the only blank on the market that I know of that does not oval under presure. Thanks Chris | ||
| cbuf |
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Posts: 190 | Scott24 custom rods can range from 150 to over 1000. The people that I learned from who are far better than I get 1200 - 5000 per rod and it is instantly a collector piece. However, musky fisherman do not need exotic rod with tons of sensitivity like walleye guys. A titianium graphite highbreds can cost over 200-400 just for the blank and an octogonal fiber rod is about 200. I'm currently building a match set with the following specs, but these rods are build for a taller person that have longer arms. The butt length is 15". These rods are not for sale yet because they are still in process. These will be a great mid level custom rod that will cast better most rods on the market. This is the first time I'm using this blank so I will post how it turns out. Generally my stuff goes for 175 - 350. The majority of the cost is in the high end componets I use. Name Length Line Weight Lure Weight Action Power Blank Weight Price Thunder Tail 7'10" 17-50 3/4 – 3oz Fast Med Heavy 4.04oz $ 175.00 Thunder Jerk 7'6" 25-60 1- 5oz Fast Heavy 4.33oz $ 175.00 Total $ 350.00 Blanks are RX7 Graphite. The foundation for this graphite is “Intermediate Modulus / High Strain Rate” fiber (43 million) combined with a light fiberglass scrim. Then it is bonded together with a space aged resin system, this is a work horse. Blanks produced with this material offer superb strength, sensitivity, and a lighter weight strength ratio. Guides TiGold Zirconium rings offer similar performance to SIC at a much lower cost. Rings made from this high-end ceramic offer supereb hardness, thermal dissipation and low coefficient of friction. Is also provides the perfect surface for PVD (Physical vapor deposition) coatings and come in blue, gold, holigraphic, and silver Other components Fugi reel seat Oversize cork grips on both length and radius that provide the perfect grip for all day casting. length is currently at 15" Wrap Main wrap Copper and Bronze thunderbirds with silver fill. Guides are wrapped in Bronze and Copper. Thanks Chris | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32954 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I see the need for a New Product Review, contact Slamr at [email protected] to set that up for you. | ||
| Professional Edge |
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Posts: 401 | Good post on customs sticks. I second the quality Batson is putting out for custom rod builders. I have been using all Batson components on my Diamondbacks and on their musky blanks. Batson is not as well known as Fuji for their components but it my opinion they are better. Batson Musky blanks are a very high quality blank and they stand behind it 100%. The Batson name is not currently as well known in the musky community because they do not build a manufactored stick for stores. Batson only sells to rod builders. As a distributor of Diamondback I can tell you that Fig Rig is not built on Diamondback blanks. They started on Diamondback but they are not building on them now. Keith www.professionaledgefishingrods.com | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8863 | So let me see if I understand this... 1. "Spine" So each blank has a natural bend to it, is that correct? So if you were to take the blank and bend it, it would "roll" around to the same side, bend the same direction every time? And you want the guides to be placed along that "spine" so the blank's natural curve matches where the guides are... And you say commercial manufacturers don't do this? I guess I can see why, because it seems you'd have to test and individually mark where the guides should be on every single blank. 2. Guide placement/spacing Am I understanding that the number of guides and where they are placed on the blank is different for each blank, meaning that the guides on a 7'6 MH Diamondback blank for example would be placed differently than on a 7'6" H blank? Or can you have 3 identical blanks that would require different guide placement? Do the better quality rods have more guides? And what is the advantage of customized guide placement? You mentioned casting distance, can you tell us how or why th guide placement affects that? Is it just a matter of experimenting with the guides on each rod until you get them dialed in, or is there some standard formula you use? I really like the idea of being able to pick out what sort of guides, what reel seat, what sort of handle, etc. I would want in a rod, and I always thought that was why people got custom rods, but all that stuff you guys mentioned makes it sound like they're actually built better as well, that it's not just better components. Chris, do you have any pictures of your wraps? How long does it take to have one built? Jeff Edited by esoxaddict 2/10/2006 10:24 AM | ||
| reelman |
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Posts: 1270 | I look at custom rods a lot like I look at custom guns. They look nicer, but do not work any better when actually using them. Quality factory rods are spined when they are made, they have enough guides placed correctly for the action of the rod. | ||
| cbuf |
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Posts: 190 | Where should I start in the response????? Yes the Spine is the natural backbone of the rod and who want to make sure that the guides are placed on it. Most manufactures do not spine there rods, but you can get lucky and find one at the store that is spine correctly. Generally, custom rods builders will offer more guides than a manufacturer. This becasue we are setting up the rod for performance. There are a couple trade secerts of how and why to do this, but generally my 7'9" rods will have 10 -11 guides + tip. Spacing on guides is critacal for loading the rod when casting, I'm sure some of you have some store bought rods that backlash more than others and this can be a reason. A medium Mh and a h that are both 7'6" will generally have the same number of guides as long as the speeds are the same. However the guide placement will different based on the power. Also, I have run into the scenario with 3 identical blanks that had different spacing requirements. I cast each rods I'm building about 50- 100 times prior to prementlly fixing the guides on the blank. At the Chicago show I saw a bunch of custom rods that use the old method of guide placement that was developed by Dale Clemens years ago. The traditional placement generally used 6 guides for a 7 foot rod. Custom placement is by far superior. Your third to last statement is so true. Down in florida many of the rods I built were extremely plain. Black on black with a hint of color. The Toho bass guys just wanted the custom rods for sensitivity and cast ability, they didn't care how they looked. Most people when they think of custom they think fancy, but the fact is they are just better made. Weather you go fancy or plain is what to you and your pocket book. I'm at work, but when I get home I will see if I can post some pictures. I have a full time job so I don't build as many rods as I would like. I generally build rods in 2's or greater do to drying time, but if i'm cranking out rods before a canada trip I can generally do 5 in a week depending on wraps and bottle neck on drying. Chris | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8863 | Cool stuff, thanks Chris. So how would one check to see of their store bought sticks are spined or not? | ||
| cbuf |
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Posts: 190 | Unfortunitly I don't have anything cool in the basement right now. People buy all the cool ones, however I have 1 rod that is my favorite. I built this rod for my buddy and after casting it and true getting every detail of this rod perfect I could not sell it. After going to canada selling him 2 advaned patterns that came out perfect, he wanted to cast my pride and joy. That was a mistake the bidding went really high before I cut it off and said not for sale. This is the rod I will out cast anybody with in both distance and accuracy. It has a single strand maze pattern on a green rod filled in with green. Gold guides with gold and blue trim. Truely awesome. It is the top rod in the picture. The second rod in the picture was my first muskie rod that I did about 4 years ago. The thrid rod is a st. criox that I made for live bait fishing off my kayak in the titusville flats. It is a slow rod where the pins fish can run a little without taking drag becausenthey fight the rod. The next rod is my rocket stick red fish rod. In the salt you generally do not want cork so I built it out of a red wood grain foam. It turn out perfect and the tip is bright yellow so you an watch it. This is a high end rod blank that cost me 250. If you stick the rod under your nose and breathe out I will fell it. Lastly was a lamiglass that I made that I didn't like the colors I put on it, but at 160 for the blank I wasn't going to pitch it. These picture do not do any justice for these rods... You have to see them in person and in the sun to really appreciate them. I'll post the rods that I'm working on when there done in a new post. chris | ||
| Pointerpride102 |
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Posts: 16632 Location: The desert | I do like custom rods, but sometimes the rod builder turns out to be an @-hole and if something were to happen to your rod you could be SOL. I feel that some of the larger rod companies have good waranty/ help plans if something tragic were to happen to your rod. I personally know a rod builder that I feel has no sense of custom service. Yes he makes good rods but is relatively misleading in his advertising and seems unwilling to help out with problems. This is whyle I will stick with G-Loomis and St. Croix. Mike | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8863 | Chris... You gonna post that picture or what? And that other guy brought up a good point a while back about warranties and what happens to the warranty if you die. Just out of curiosity, you're not really old are 'ya? LOL. After reading this whole thread it kind of seems that custom rods are better suited for people who want more out of their rods, guys who guide, or just the die hard equipment freaks. Got me curious, that's for sure. Considering that all my rods and reels combined don't add up to half of what I have invested in lures, maybe I'm spending my money in the wrong place... For the cost of a few lures you can get a rod that outperforms the ones you have, AND you get to customize it? Sure sounds tempting... | ||
| cbuf |
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Posts: 190 | I just realized that the pictures I uploaded didn't show up! I will try again tonight I wonder if they were to big? Anyway, if the rod builder you know has prersonality problems and is an @hole I can help you with that. To give you an example of my service, I'm completely reguiding 2 rods for a guide I know and I don't charge 15 to 20 bucks a guide like most custom rods builders. I beleive that if you help people they may someday return a favor. I'm only charging him the cost of the guides + materials plus 10 bucks for a bottle of wine to keep me company while wrapping. As I said I'm not in it for the money I'm in it for the enjoyment. Chris | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8863 | How does someone decide what sort of components to use for a custom rod? I know some are better than others, but I don't know enough about it to make an educated decision. Is that something you help with? Like the grips for example -- I was comparing the cork on some of my rods, and some of them have a really dense cork that is really smooth, and others have cork that's kind of... crappy is a good word. If I had a rod built I'd want better cork. Reel seats -- never broke one, but I don't like that they're all plastic nowadays. Can you get metal ones? And guides -- I've heard some of the names and types, but I would have no idea how to decide what kind of guides I'd want. I guess what I'm asking is do you steer people in a direction based on what they want out of a rod, or do we have to know the specifics about the individual components and you build it based on those specifics... I know one thing -- I have a whole pile of rods and not one of them can cast a #5 Mepps more than about 25 feet. But that's more the reel and the choice of line than the rod, right? | ||
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