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Posts: 1243
Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | I'm looking to pick up a 10" Believer to add to my fall trolling arsenal, which includes mostly Jakes at the moment. If you could only get one, would you get a jointed or straight model Believer? And why would you choose one over the other?
Thanks,
Aaron |
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| Straight, by far, in the 10". Jointed 10" just don't troll as well, though they can be good for open water. |
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| Straight is much better for trolling, the jointed ones are better to cast  |
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Posts: 4266
| The 10" Jointed Believer is the most under-rated top water lure that there is.
I love casting them and retrieving them with that "clack-clack-clack" going.
Great noise, and you don't have to fish them in slow motion.
Beav |
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| Beav!!! U'r back!!!
how was the trip?
did you get my check for the Castor, i sent it last week?
thanx
G |
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Posts: 152
| Straight for trolling. |
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Posts: 1243
Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Thanks for the feedback on the staight versus jointed deal. Here's a follow up question...a couple questions actually...which will go deeper, a 10" straight Believer or a 10" Jake? And if you were trolling with either a Jake or a Believer, would conditions dictate choosing one over the other? I guess what I'm wondering is if the action of one bait is better suited for triggering more negative fish.
Thanks,
Aaron |
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Posts: 202
Location: Angola, IN | Hey AWH.....
I have a completely different opinion than everyone else....and I've caught some REALLY big muskies on Believers and they were all on jointed 10". All of them.
I'm guessing that a majority of people don't like the jointed ones is because they are very erratic. Anglers put out too much line and their baits get all tangled up because they criss-cross. This wild side-to-side arc that the jointed versions exhibit is exactly what makes them the best. A 10" jointed believer will "blow out" 90 degrees from running straight (meaning the bait is actually on it's side temporariliy) and will raise and drop 3-8 feet in the water column. That's built in action baby, w/o doing a thing, except pulling the lure!!!
Actually, the baits will arc more than 90 degrees and end up upside down, and you'll start dragging them on the surface upside down. This is a good sign, just slow the speed down until the lure stays down.
Put the bait on the deep setting and let out 10-20' of line on your outside rods. Or if you run three lines, run one down the middle further back, and short line straight running baits out the side.
I've fished with some of the best trollers there are, and I have never seen one of them put a straight Believer on a leader. And most anglers wouldn't either, if they just knew how to run them.
Edited by SteveHulbert 7/27/2005 3:40 PM
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Posts: 1137
Location: Holly, MI | I'm with Steve. The jointed believers have caught many fish for me. Don't be too shy to run them on a real short leash. I mean 6-8 feet behind the boat (in the wash). Let your partner scoff, they will shut up when you are catching fish. Plus it is fun to be able to see your lure working. The more broke in (or wore out) a believer is the better it will clack and shake. They are a very erratic lure and will trigger fish. The straights have a very different motion and I like the small straights (5 inch) also for trolling. |
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Posts: 292
Location: Minneapolis | Another vote with Steve. Trolling the Ottawa River with Richard Collin, we nearly always used a jointed 10" believer when we used crankbaits. And we caught many, including a 51". We trolled them on the SHALLOW eye at ~ 5 mph, 40 - 50 feet back. Use the deep eye if you have a shorter line or are going slower. I believe Richard said he goes to the straight 10" believer late in the fall when he wants to go much slower.
In the lakes around the Twin Cities, I use both jointed and straight with about equal results, but the jointed do have a much wider, wilder, action.
RP |
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Posts: 1137
Location: Holly, MI | I think the straight (fall/slower) believers are better when the fish ask for a slower presentation. Even if the speed is not decreased much, the straight body appears to be moving slower. Both have incredible motion. A great lure for sure. |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | Both have their place but jointed Believers are just the best working lures out there. Put on a jointed 10 inch believer on the shallow setting and let out 30 feet of line and drive 5 MPH and hold onto that rod. That bait will never stop working for you, no other bait out there does as much with so little effort. I also use them on the deep setting with shorter lines to get them deeper with still a really good action ( got 2 fish averaging 50+ inches last week on a deep setting jointed ). As for solids I like them in the fall when going slower and deeper, I never use the straight ones on the shallow settings. I also use the straigh ones as an ace in the hole ( propwash ), just let out 10-15 feet and let her ride right under the propwash.
Edited by Trophymuskie 7/28/2005 6:52 AM
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Posts: 1086
| Another question about Believers.
Are you guys running them as they are out of the box, off the shelf? Meaning...with the loud rattles inside?
I was thinking of drilling one of mine and pouring out the rattling beads and then sealing the bait back up to run one without the rattles. The Believers I have, have some really obnoxious rattles to them.
To rattle or not to rattle. That's the question.
I don't think Believers are available in a non-rattling version, are they??
Thanks |
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Posts: 78
Location: Pardeeville, WI | Trophy Musky,
Are you adding any weight to the believers?? How many feet down do you think your prop wash lure is on average?
I run a lot of lures in the propwash but they seem to run right in it. Should I be looking to get them down under the wash?
Also, can you troll those believers in shallow water or is it primarily a deep water weapon? Lots of lakes I fish go from 20 feet deep to 3 feet deep in a hurry so I usually run shallow running cranks less than 2-3 feet down.
Thanks for any info. |
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Posts: 38
| I run the jointed right behind the boat with the rod tip in the water and pointed at the motor. I let out 8-12 feet of line and put it on the deep setting. If I am trolling, which I haven't done a ton of, this is the only way I feel confident. Oh yeah, if you like the action of the jointed 10", you have got to try pulling the old burmek b-1 at 4.5 to 6 mph. I swear you'll love it, and it catches fish. |
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Posts: 202
Location: Angola, IN | You wouldn't believe how many fish you catch trolling a lure with no line out....JUST THE LEADER. I use 4' leaders. I'm not joking about this. If the lure is on my outside rods, the bait is actually in front of the motor (but off to the side). I even know guys who stick a rod straight down in the water from the bow....the lure runs right under the boat about where the console is!!!
There is something to say about loud, hard pulling, erratic baits being trolled on a SHORT line. If you use 4' leaders, I'm talking about 0-10 feet of line out. Take a hard thumping crankbait, keep it short, and go as fast as you can until it blows out. Then slow down just a bit. A lot of thumping crankbaits can't be trolled fast. But some can. 10" jointed Believer is one of them. Add lead to the front hook hanger and/or tune the hooks.
In general, non-jointed lures are best for trolling when it's cold and you need to go slow. The lure gives off a big wobble and flash. They also tend to not want to be trolled fast for that very reason. But a jointed bait has that "clacking" tail section that helps keep the wobble tighter, and therefore can be trolled fast (like Wiley's, Loke's, etc.) The lip of the Believer gives it that extra action that no other bait can give you. Like Rich said, it's the hardest working lure there is and you don't have to do a thing. It hunts down fish!!! |
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Posts: 654
Location: MPLS, MN | IMO
Straight in Clear Water
Jointed in Stained Water |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | BTPF - 7/28/2005 11:44 AM
Trophy Musky,
Are you adding any weight to the believers?? How many feet down do you think your prop wash lure is on average?
I run a lot of lures in the propwash but they seem to run right in it. Should I be looking to get them down under the wash?
Also, can you troll those believers in shallow water or is it primarily a deep water weapon? Lots of lakes I fish go from 20 feet deep to 3 feet deep in a hurry so I usually run shallow running cranks less than 2-3 feet down.
Thanks for any info.
No weight added but some do run better then others. Most seem to work right out of the box since they fixed them. I use straight believers, 9 inch fat boys or any straight diving baits for going under the propwash. I think with 10-15 feet of line out the lure is maybe 5 feet down max, you can tell you are under the wash once the lure is running straigh or undisturbed by the wash. This is a big fish trigering pattern, not many small fish have the balls to grab a lure under the motor like that.
I believe with 30 feet of 80# Power Pro the jointed believers will run 7-8 feet down but at times they may even come up on top or dive down to 10. Get yourself a good lure retreiver and troll that break and you will be amazed at the fish you will be getting.
Here is a tip, connect to the shallow setting of your 10 inch jointed believer. Now let out about 30 feet of line or 5 wraps on a 6500C3. Now speed up a little at a time without paying much attention at anything else then your rod tip. Keep speeding up untill you can see your rod tip do this ( thump, thump, pause........, thump, thump, pause........... ) then see what speed you are doing, this will be the set speed for that particular lure as not all work at the same speed. You may want to hold onto your rod vs. using a rod holder to get a better feel or her dance. The thumping is went the lure is digging and the pause is when the lure is rising left or right and sometimes both one right after the other. I believe a fish following or even looking at this lure cannot resisit it once it dies and goes up to one side or the other.
Now if I only can figure out how a fish can grab a Believer with three 5/0 trebbles going by at 5 MPH and not get hooked. I think ( my theory on those missed fish ) we need to ad a stingner on the head of the lure, may kinda mess with the action though. |
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Posts: 4266
| How shallow will they troll on the shallow setting with just 20-30 feet of line out?
I want to troll the top of some big bars that top off at 6-8 feet. I tried trolling spinnerbaits to where they just disappear from sight, but was wondering if I could troll a Believer that shallow.
Is it a matter of slowing down and letting out less line?
Thanks,
Beav |
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Posts: 4266
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Edited by Beaver 7/28/2005 10:30 PM
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Posts: 78
Location: Pardeeville, WI | Thanks for the info guys, it is always appreciated.
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | Beaver you just need to let less line out. |
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Posts: 4266
| Thanks Richard. I'm a real rookie when it comes to trolling for muskies. I troll The Mississippi River for walleye quite a bit, so deep water trolling isn't where I have problems. I'm learning how deep certain lures will run. I'm learning to keep the length of line short. But there are vast areas on the tops of bars that would take forever to work if I was going to cast. So far I have trolled them with spinnerbaits with the spinnerbait just deep enough to lose sight of it. It's been working on pike, but no skis yet.
What are some other lures that you guys would use in the same situation. Water generally 6-8 feet deep. I've been thinking of trying Cranes and Super Shad Raps. What would you guys suggest?
Thanks,
Beav |
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| Beav try something small wiley 6" jointed, or a loke tight in the wash. I have a downeaster mounted in the corner of my boat and run these rod tip down, held at a 45 so the bait is straight out the middle with a 6' leader and no more than 10' of line out.Sometimes I'll add 2oz heavy duty trolling sinker in front of the leader to keep the bait down. Belivers are great for trolling around weeds they kick off most of the weeds I see them run into. Short line and if the bait won't stay down put some lead in front of it. Cabela's sells the sinkers I use in the salt water catalog. NO bead chains brass loops with thru wire construction. Hope this helps.
Ben |
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Posts: 4266
| I'm set up with 4 rod holders, 2 on the corners of the transom and two on the rails. I can angle one of the ones in the corner of the transom right behind the outboard.
I'm making it a point to troll more and need to learn more techniques. I pour all of my own weights that I use for 3-way rigs on The Mississippi River. 2-4-6 and 8 ounce.
I have lots to learn, and it seems that short lengths of line seems to be a good way to run lures shallower. Next trip I'll be better prepared, with different lures and more knowledge.
Beav |
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Posts: 2
| Beaver,
You can angle one or both of your corner rods to get the bait in the prop wash. I would only try to center one bait in the wash. I would take the other corner rod holder and angle it straight down. This will put the rod tip straight down off of the transom. Put the rod tip in the water about 6 to 12 inches and let out 2 to 8 feet of line not counting the leader. This will put your bait on the edge of the wash. You may need to add 2ounces of weight get the bait at the desired depth depending on the bait that you are running. I normally run this set up with 8 for ounces of weight at 8 to 12 foot of water and 10 to 16 ounces in water from 12 to 20 foot deep.
If you are trying to cover a lot of water you might consider using planer boards to help spread your baits. The boards like the prop wash do attract muskies. I have even seen muskies follow the boards several different times. You can control the depth of bait off of the boards by how much line and weight you have out. For 8 FOW I would use 5 to 10 with no weight. This should keep most shallow running baits in the top 2 FOW. These techniques that I have learned and use on Lake St. Claire
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Posts: 656
Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | I"m from Mn. and we're allowed only one line per angler, so I don't use planer boards or downriggers or short lines or anything fancy that most trollers use. I just freeline the Believers. I run them about 50 to 80 feet back depending on how deep I'm trying to get them down to. I actually like both straight and jointed and use them interchangeably. I agree the jointed does meander and roll around more than the straight but I like the thump of a straight when it's going the right speed. Watch your rod tip it will tell you when the bait is swinging it's best.
I do add weight to my believers, but I use the old JB weight insert for plastic lures to do it with. I stocked up on them before they went out of business and still have about a dozen left. I'll only put them into believers. I add about 1oz to mayber 1 1/4 oz to the bait as anything more kills the action. With the wieghts I've had them bumping bottom about 18 to 20 feet down. Without the lead I can only get about 15 feet down.
I haven't tried the short line approach that a lot of you guys are talking about but plan to in the future. What is your opinion of the new 13 inch Believers. I've bought 2, 1 solid and 1 jointed but haven't had a chance to use them yet.
For casting, I like the 10 or 8 inch solid and I hook it to the shallow eye and use it as a twitch/jerk bait. It's hard work and you need a no strech line and pool cue rod to do it, but you'll be amazed at what you can get a twitched 10 inch solid believer to do. For twitching I add about a 1/4 ox to the bait. It helps steady the lure and keep it from blowing out to much on a hard pull, it helps the lip bite the water better and doesn't affect the running depth as the lure is so bouyant. |
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