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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Here is a topic that has plenty of variables.
When a guide is hired and fishes from the front of the boat due to boat control, is this good for buisness?
This way you don't have first crack at the spots but can watch him work.
How about a guide that fishes from the back of the boat and controls the boat with a extention?
This way his clients would get first water and he can watch them to make sure they are doing what they need to do. Maybe even fish while watching them work up front.
Should a guide fish or not?
Plenty can be learned while watching a guide work or will it lower your chances to score a fish?
I think the clients should get the first water but I see other well known guides stand up front and cast without looking back at his clients as they work a spot.
What are some of your views as a guide and boat owner?
How about some of the people that hire guides. What are your views? |
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Posts: 199
Location: Anchorage | My fishing partners and I hired Eric Genson out of Hayward several times this past summer to gain some more insight and confidence on some of the heavier pressured trophy lakes in the area. He fished from the back which allowed the two others to rotate between the front. I favored this situation because it gave us the most room and the first crack at fish. It also made for quicker travel and less shuffling in a tiller boat.
Elwood |
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Posts: 184
| Mike,
Guiding is the only thing that I do for a living, and I just feel that a guide belongs in the back of the boat and should be fishing. That way the clients always get first water, and they can still watch you work baits and pick up helpful hints that way too. It is really easy to control a boat from the back with a bow mount trolling motor, and the extension to run it from the back.
Just my 2 cents,
Chad
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| The first time I hired a guide it was on Rowan Lake and he ran to the front of the boat at each stop and fished the 1st water. I will say the front trollimg motor had to be worked from the bow. I wasn't to happy about it, but nobody caught fish that day. I still think the customer should get the good spot in the boat and that is usually up front. Since then I have hired other guides and if they fished it was from the rear of the boat. They had controls that they could operate from different positions in the boat. I don't mind if the guide fishes I hire a guide to find the spo on the spot and pass on a bit of knowledge if he hooks up thats ok too |
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Posts: 107
Location: milwaukee | Well, from the perspective of one person who will be hiring two separate guides this year-
For me, watching the guide fish spots and catch, play and land fish is part of the learning experience - whether he does it from the front or the back of the boat. So, I'd like my guides to give me the choice, front or back; at my current level of experience, I'd probably say "you take the front for now, and let's re-evaluate at mid-day".
Should a guide fish? Absolutely, if it's a one-person guide trip. Again, contacting fish is part of the learning experience - the more lures in the water, the better. As the boat gets more crowded, as the client I'd like the option to have the guide sit rather than fish.
There are different reasons for hiring a guide, so there are certainly different answers to the questions. Guides should read the needs/desires of the clients and offer the most appropriate options to fit.
Hope that helps! |
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Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I guide form the front, but control the boat so the clients get best water first. It's a bit different than some are used to, but isn't hard to do at all. |
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| I have been with guides who fish in front, guides who fish in back, and guides who don't fish at all and just row! I learn something from everyone, and it is the guide's job to put you on fish. I hope the guide catches fish too, but I hope I get the first crack at the best spots. One of the most important thing you learn from guides that must be emphasized is boat control. That is critical to learn, and each method has its pros and cons when it comes to boat control. It also has a great deal to do with safety especially on big water with nasty waves. The Q&A from a day on the water with a guide is the real value!  |
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Location: Des Moines IA | In my only guide experience, he ran the boat from the back, let us up front. He fished from the back, but he asked us if we minded. I have seen other guides run the boat from the front. I think I would prefer to be upfront myself ,but I really don't think it's that big of a deal. Especially if the guide runs the boat to the advantage of the clients as SWorral stated.
M M |
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Posts: 1936
Location: Eau Claire, WI | Mike,
When I was running tiller boats I had them rigged with Minn Kota's Power Drive/Auto Pilots and fished out of the back, this worked well for me. Over the past few seasons I have been running the Maxxum trolling motor which keeps me on the front deck, I either don't fish or cast on the off-side. I keep the least experienced angler with me on the front deck so I can work with him/her on a more personal level, I put the most experienced angler on my back deck and keep an eye on what they are doing as well.
I am about ready to buy a Motorguide DS series motor... Scissors style launch with electic pedal control so I can go back to fishing out of the back when I want to. I talked to two Minn Kota reps at the Blain show this past weekend and as of now Minn Kota has no plans to make their power drive series on a scissors syle mount. The guy said if had a nickle for ever person that requested that.... I have a bit of a concern about Motorguide reliabiltiy but I don't want the old Pin-Point features anyway so I'll by the DS series and hope for the best.
I agree with Chad Cain's response based on my past experience, although I have learned to make being in the front work for me and I've talked to clients about it and they don't seem to mind. I just have to be really careful when I cast to make sure the client gets the best water.
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | I guide out of the back of the boat, and would never even think about fishing out of the front of the boat. I would also say that about 40% of my guide trips, my clients ask me not to fish. I also find it easiser to run the boat from the back. Minn Kota makes the Power Drives with the 20 foot foot pedal cord so I never run into this problem.
The days that my clients ask me not to fish, I will try and suggest that it is better if I fish due to them watching me, learn how to work lures, etc... but most times, when my clients tell me not to fish, I simply don't fish.
Guide out of the back, it's the only way to do it. |
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Posts: 184
| Hey Mark,
I have run the Motorguide Excel Motors, which are now the DS motors, for the last five years now. Yes, I have had some problems, but not in the last two years. The Gator Mounts have given me more trouble than the motors. Even with the few problems I have had, I still continue to use them. I have the 109lb 36Volt for my big boat, and I also have a smaller tiller Ranger 680 that I have a 24 Volt 82 pound thrust that I have never had problems with. It is the 36 Volt motors that have failed a few times, but I own three of them so I have a couple back-ups!
I just hate the footpads on Minn Kotas, and there SLOW response time. These Motorguides are as fast as a cable driven motor in their response!
Hope this helps,
Chad
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | I agree with chad, the power drives are slow, and the foot pedals go out several times a year if you use them alot. I hope to find a 36 v trolling motor sometime this summer. Chad, do you know if Greg still has his MG for sale???
See you this weekend. |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I also guide from the back of the boat. I fish the water after the clients have already been through it. On occasion, in big wind, I will go to the front deck to handle the boat but then I put the rods down. |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | i am a person who hires alot of guides! all the guides i have ever hired have fished out of the back of the boat ,with the exception of one. he fished out of the middle. which i kinda liked, he said by staying in the middle it gave his clients both casting decks. all of the ones i have fished with had bow mount motors and never had any boat control problems. actually most work a bow mount better from the back than i do from the front! i would never ever consider telling a guide not to fish. #1 i think it would be insulting him, #2 less lines in the water means more time it will take to establish a pattern. #3 you can learn alot about new baits by watching someone who knows what they are doing and how to work it. im happy and honored to net a fish for a guide any day!!!!!! |
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Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I've used the Minn Kota for years, and use them ALOT. The response time is way faster than it used to be, and in my opinion, plenty fast enough now even in huge winds. I've had ONE pedal go out in over 10 years. Both MotorGuide and Minn Kota build a fine electric motor for the application we are discussing. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | I really like the Minn Kota's and will probably use them for years and years to come. The long cord on the foot pedal, and the extra low profile foot pedals make this a great set up. Very easy on your back.
I am sure if I took better care of my foot pedals they would last longer, but I am going throught about 2 per year. |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | My power drive/auto pilot has a much faster turn speed than the one I had 3-4 years ago. Not sure if they got any of the letters or emails I sent over the years, but they definately sped it up. Several pedals a year???? You need to keep that thing in the storage compartment while trailering mike!!!, Or throw a plastic bag over it quickly. Dust kills em. I used to go through a pedal a year or so, and kept getting chewed out by Chuck Brod at Sportsmans repair. Now that I go through the 30 second motion of stowing the pedal upon transit down dusty roads, I have not had any problems and I use mine as much as anyone here I would suspect. That said, the pedals have been improved in the past year or so, and the micro switches have been beefed up with a better coating applied. I still carry an extra with me at all times, as all switches do wear out sooner or later.
Edited by Reef Hawg 3/17/2005 10:15 AM
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Posts: 1936
Location: Eau Claire, WI | Just got back in the office again.
Chad, Thanks for the heads up on Motor Guide, I called Pete about a month or so ago and talked to him as well.
Guys,...
My issue with the Power Drive series is not the speed of control, although going away from cable steer will be difficult for the instant control, especially when I'm up on the "Shield" lakes with proximity to rocks, etc.
My concern (personal preference but I have grown to hate them) is the launch/mount for the Power Drive series. It is a two hand operation at best if you don't have to fight with it. With the scissors style you just grab the rope and up it comes...
One of the first things I do in many, not all, situations is get the trolling motor up out of the way as soon as a fish is hooked. If they hit next to the boat you sometimes don't have the time to ask someone else to do it...reach down grab the rope and.....done, need it back in for boat control...reach down grab the rope and done...
Just another personal preference thing with the trolling motors...
For me, the ultimate would be a mount that would allow a person to easily/quickly change from and electric control shaft to a cable control shaft without changing out the base mount part of the unit... I suspect I can do this with Motorguide, I'll be checking into it a little further before I make the change.
Anyway....
Thanks again Chad, I appreciate the heads up. And yes I agree....If I fish with guests in my boat, I would prefer to be in the back out of courtesy/professionalism and honestly...for safety too...especially with those who are virgin musky fishers.... cuz every once in while they can throw a wild pitch...hehe  It's all fun....just fish... |
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Posts: 146
Location: Wayzata, MN | I've hired a few guides now... one was in the back, the rest were in the front. I didn't have a problem with it. They didn't cast in every 'prime' spot, but did point out spots for me to hit [much appreciated]... then I can ask "why?" and pick their brain some...
I always want them to fish, I want to see how they handle themselves, and it's an opportunity to ask more questions.
A guide that doesn't want you to catch a fish, is probably the wrong person to be in the boat with... Besides, if he instinctively starts fishing hard [hitting the spots]... that's a great opportunity to dog him about it [grin]... there's more than one way to have fun while fishing ;} |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | When I guide I am controlling the boat from the back, or the middle of the boat. With one client I fish off the back. With two I am in the middle, and the clients each get the front and back deck to themselves. I don't feel there is an advantage to be in the fron or the back being most of the time my boat is over deeper water. I try to tell my client(s) to fish different water than the person ahead of them. If one is casting to the left side of the boat down a deep break, the other should be casting to the right side. I will then cast to the same side as the person in front of me with a higher/lower presentation than the person in front of me. This way the client in the back has fresh water. While drifting basins for suspendos, each client should be casting at a 45° angle off then end of the boat, and I cast right down the center. I run an Auto Pilot, and as mentioned already they are great for running from anywhere in the boat because of the long cord. I use to go through 2 pedals a year also, but last year I learned by taking the time to store it in a compartment like Jason mentioned saves on the life of the pedal.
I feel the guide should fish if the client agrees. More lines out helps find a pattern quicker, and they can see how I work a bait. If I have clients that are relatively rookies, I usually don't spend much time fishing as I am always helping them out.
Norm brought up a great point about rough water. I have on occasion fished from the front in rough water because that is where I feel most comfortable controlling the boat. The more comfortable you are the better the boat control will be, and the more safe everyone in the baot will be. If I am in the front I will make sure the client casts to the opposite side of the boat I am. |
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| I always guide out of the back of the boat. I fish the majority of the time, unless boat control is tough. I can understand why 40% of Mike Hulbert's clients wanted him not to fish. I've seen him fish and it's dangerous. Seriously, I think guides should fish just to help figure out what the pattern is for the day. If I have fish follow or hit a bait that I'm throwing then I'll switch the client over to that bait. I use a Minn Kota Genesis trolling motor so guiding from the back isn't a problem. I haven't even snagged any clients but this is a new year. |
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Posts: 561
Location: Monee, Illinois | I think guides should fish, but if the client does not want the guide to fish then they should not. That is how it is. Unless you tell a client upfront when they contact you that you fish you should not fish unless the client wants you to.
pga |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | I'm one of the rare guides who fished from the middle of the boat ( I actually have this custom deck 12 x 18 inches built to fit on the uneven gunnel of my Lund 1800 fisherman ). I let my clients have the front and rear deck for confort. I normaly will have them using top 2 lure choices and I'll be throwing the oddball bait in odd places. This is unless I am fishing with beginners and it looks like these guys will never catch a fish, then I will try hard as heck to tie into one and pass the rod over.
I catch way less then my share of fish that way and I also try and let the guy in the back get as many chances as the guy up front. I also rarely ever get asked not to fish, most of my clients insist that I fish with them.
Whenever I fish with a buddy I kinda feel out of place up on the front deck. |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | WOW, very good stuff here.
I always guide from the back of my Ranger. I use the new Motor Guide PTS Pinpoint system. This with added 20ft extention will allow me to run my rig anywhere I choose to go. I love to let my clients cast away from the front as I watch them and help them get the baits to the spots on the spots. I will have two up front cast at certain angles and I will position the boat so the casts will be where I want them. This is when we are working structure they can't see.
With three in the boat I will stand by the client in the back. This is usually the person who has the least experiance and the one I need to work with the most. I can work with the person in the back and watch the two in the front. Just a perfect situation for three clients. I can also walk the foot control up to the front and stand between the client in front to work with them if needed.
As far as fishing, I will always make sure my clients are comfortable with everything and doing everything they need to do to have the best oppertunity to score a fish. When I am confident with the situation I will ask if they mind if I cast also, most of the time they will tell me ist about time I started to fish. I will always follow the conversation with "If I hook up with a fish I am going to yell and hand the rod off" to the nearest client. I would feel bad if I boated a fish that they could have reeled in. I feel they can learn as they catch the fish I just hooked, they will also feel like they were part of the catch. Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of clients that will want me to catch fish while fishing with them. Kind of like a contest for some of them, guide vs clients.
Bottom line is: Talk to your clients about the situations and see how they feel. Most of them will be happy to watch you fish and learn from you. Also, if you hand off a fish, they will enjoy the fight, pictures and release. The next day it will be "Here is a picture of the fish I caught". Some people might be too proud to take a handed off, but thats part of learning and why your on the water with a guide. I love to watch clients catch fish, the excitement on there face and joy of accomplishment. Your in that boat to score knowledge and fish.
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Posts: 24
| Mike:
Not necessarily "pride". Before CPR, I fished with a Canadian guide for five days. Conditions were tough and we weren't even seeing fish. On the second day, the guide who wasn't fishing asked if he could fish. "We gotta get you a Musky", he said.
Fine by me. But, Musky fishing is finding them, getting them to eat, hooking and getting the fish to the net. you stick one and it's your fish, I'll handle the net. I had no interest in the possibility of claiming a record, or any, fish without front to back responsibility.
Between the both of us, I caught one fish. Still, it was one of the best trips I've ever had. By the by, even with CPR, I still feel that way.
Off the subject, fishing without a guide. Yep, did that, on Georgian Bay. One of the dumbest things I've ever done. Water kicked my butt and #*^@ near killed me on a rock pile.
Ted |
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Posts: 305
Location: Illinois | I really want my guide fishing. It increases the brotherhood in the boat for lack of a less sappy term. In guide situations it should be a team sport just like any other fishing trip. If the guide pops a 30 pounder I would be thankful to know how to find and work the spot a 30 pounder came from. |
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Posts: 73
Location: Hazard KY | I am one of the guides that when asked to fish fish from the front of the boat mostly due to the fact I don't have a $2000 dollar wirless or with cord remote trolling motor. I never fish prime spots first and always point them out to the client because he is the one whos needs a fish on the end of his line. I would say that I only have one or two guys a year that ask me not to fish I always figured they already knew the best retrieves and ways to work thier lure and did'nt need my help.
Just being a smarty pants I love to help people to thier first or biggest muskie thats my thrill.
Save time and money hire a guide its his job to help you to the fish.
good fishin Chris  |
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Posts: 40
Location: Maryland | Same area diffent question
I will soon begin fishing with Musky guides. I have no idea what is a reasonable "had a good day, learned a lot" kind of tip or a "wow blew my mind really went the extra mile" kind of tip.
Any guides or customers who use guides care to share your ideas of what might be appropriate for tips |
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