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| Message Subject: Muskie Conditioning? | |||
Slamr |
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Posts: 7039 Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | How possible is this? -to lures? -to being caught? -to the sound of motors? My personal feeling is that its a topic we all use to tell ourselves why we didnt catch fish. My belief is that if a dog has a memory span of about 15 seconds, how long would a fish have? AND, the things we do to teach a dog ____, we do over and over and over and over again, making SURE we have their attention when we do it. If a fish has a brain the size of a fingernail (maybe), what are the chances that they can be "conditioned" by seeing a lure a few times a day, presented in different ways, a few times a week? Or if they're caught ONE time, or even 4X. Can they really REMEMBER that event, and then be able to make CONCIOUS choices that they shouldnt eat another piece of wood, or some hair going through the water, or a SUCKER that has some hooks in it? Tell me how a fish gets "conditioned", because I don't think its possible. | ||
| BALDY |
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Posts: 2378 | I'm with you Slamr. I dont think it happens. | ||
| Red Raider |
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| Hey Slamr, I agree with you what you say about conditioning especially what you said pertaining to the muskies brain. In my personal experience I believe one of two things can happen, either they do become conditioned (which can't be proven) to lures or as the fish age and grow the ones that are left are the ones that were difficult to catch in the first place. About 5 (2000) yrs ago I started fishing a small lake that had been stocked twice in the previous 5 yrs. (I believe 1996 and 1998) in 01-02 the two different size year classes of fish were very easy to catch. I mean multiple fish were the norm under about any and all conditions. I was new to the sport but released all fish and the bigger year class were upper 30's. The stocking has continued but today the musky fishing is pretty much just like it is anywhere else. Fish in the boat are not nearly as common as several years ago although there are some big fish in there today (upper 40's). Did some of the fish from the original stockings become conditioned, I really don't think so because some of them have been caught and kept (some people on the lake don't like them for the normal reasons and a 36 in. fish for alot of the locals is a fish of a lifetime). This lake does receive much more musky fishing today than just a few years ago, but I think the big fish that are in the lake today were the ones that have for what ever reason (genetics?) been tougher to catch all along. Just a thought? Brett | |||
| Decoy |
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Posts: 67 | Can a fish, Muskie be conditioned, yes. In a laboratory setting under controled conditions. There are plenty of articles which demonstrate conditioned behavior in fish. Could a fish, Muskie, become conditioned in a lake enviroment, perhaps. There was an article in the Lakeland Times last Summer about a Largemouth Bass that showed up at a pier each day at noon for his handout. However, the random display of lures on an eratic schedule isn't enough stimulus to condition a fish. The sound of motors on a high traffic lake may cause the fish to change behavior during those high traffic times. IF the traffic is over an area frequented by the fish. Being caught and released may cause avoidance behavior for a short time, perhaps up to72 hrs. But I doubt the fish remembers being caught and avoides the lure it was caught on. | ||
| ToddM |
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Posts: 20219 Location: oswego, il | I think they can, fish in general can, let me give you a first hand example: Part of a summer job I had was working for a state park. Part of that job was putting feed in the feeders on the state park lake for the fish to eat. It was pellet food. The lake was electric motor only but the state park boat had a 9.5 johnson on it. We could pull up to a feeder and never put a single drop of food on that feeder and the fish would come. First the bluegils, then the bullheads, then the catfish and bass. They all came, they were conditioned to know the sound of the motor meant food. I think all normal fish behavior comes from conditioning. How they eat, what parts of the lake they live, where they roam, it's part of what makes each fish individual. I would be willing to bet it's part of what makes some live longer than others, their growth rates combined with genetics of course. | ||
| dogboy |
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Posts: 723 | If you could even compare the two, take ducks for example. Where I used to live on winnebago. we duck hunted in front of the house, early in the summer the local ducks would be eating grass and frolicking around in the front yard,come hunting season, good luck getting them to even come close. I feel that to a degree fish can be conditioned to maybe not striking right away and following to see where the bait leads them. Think about the muskies curiosity to follow, how many times have you had a certain fish come back to the boat only to do the same thing and turn away? By this repetitive action of following, seeing where it leads them, to the boat or maybe even to the net, I would think some fish, like dogs, eventually do get it and are more cautious. But then again, there is always that suicidal fish that no matter what you do, you end up catching anyway. Thats what I love about the sport, you'll never have them figured out. Just my 2cents. | ||
| dougj |
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Posts: 906 Location: Warroad, Mn | Yes: Fish can be trianed. The more offten a spot gets hit a day the harder it is to catch them. Rember, fish are not stationary objects, and come and go. If you have a high population of fish you can be lucky and catch a fish right behind another fisherman because of fish movement. This makes it look like you have a secret lure or techiique, but in reality it's because a fish can now see your bait because it swam a little ways or turned and looked the other way, and can now see your lure. I feel that a fish that has been moved (followed or struck a lure and missed) is much harder to catch in the short term, than a fish that hasn't been moved. The first time you have a fish up is your best chanch of catching that fish!. I've always have better luck trying for new fish than for fish I've seen, at least on most of the Canadian shield lakes that I've fished (40 years+ experience). If I go back on a fish and actually catch them it's usually within an hour of when I saw it first. I rarely see the same fish in the same spot the next day! I'm sure that this doesn't fly with the find them and go back and catch them folks I've seen on the web, but I've never had much luck with that. I doubt that I catch more than a couple fish a year that I go back and try to catch (I try lots of times). On the LOTWS with all the spots it seems conterproductive. On a small Minnesota or Wisxconsin lake with a few big fish and few spots available it's maybe your best chance. Keep this in mind if you are fishig the LOTWs, it may well be different in low population, high pressue, or stocked lakes. Doug Johnson | ||
| VMS Steve |
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| One thing that keeps popping in my mind here is that a muskie is a creature that works on stimulus-repsonse mechanisms. One lure triggers a response, while another does not. Is that conditioning? Not sure...but when a body of water is getting pounded with the same types of baits day in and day out, the stimulus may or may not generate a response. Within my own experience on pressured waters, I have found that if I am doing something totally different than what others are doing out there, it more often than not, pays off. It's a different stimulus, that the fish have not dealt with, that somehow triggers them to respond. This does not always work, but it works enough to pay attention to. There are so many variables that affect response: local weather and water conditions, and structure. The lure is our way to stimulate a reaction, beit a follow or a strike. The only thing we have control of is our presentation...the rest is up to the fish. We have to stimulate a response. I do think it is a safe bet that fish do not have the ability to remember, so when fishing behind a rig that just went through, a different stimulus promotes a different reaction. It may or may not be the same fish (population dependent). Steve | |||
| RK_unlogged |
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| Hiya, I don't think there's any doubt that fish respond to pressure. Whether that meets the clinical definition of 'conditioning' is a whole 'nother matter, but being fished for changes their behavior, as Doug pointed out. Two extreme examples: A friend was fishing a MN lake that gets hit pretty hard. He was on one of the better known spots, throwing a topwater. He has a fish come up behind the bait, waking, tail breaking the surface - pretty hot fish. When the fish gets close enough to see the boat, it immediately turns on the jets, swims under the boat as fast as it can go, then comes out of the water on the other side of the boat and tailwalks. I'm on Mille Lacs two summers ago, fishing a pretty well known weedbed, twitching a big Jake. Make a cast, and immediately see brown off to one side of my bait, moving fast. I tell my partner 'here comes one...' A few seconds later, a high-40s fish rockets out of the water in an awesome head-shaking jump... 20' off to the side of my bait. Tell me those fish weren't reacting to a recent experience? Whether it's short term changes in behavior or long-term 'conditioning' fish behavior changes as a result of being fished for. Not saying pressured fish are impossible to catch. If that were the case, nobody'd catch one out of Leech, ever. But it does change things quite a bit. Pretty convinced of that.... Cheers, RK | |||
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