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| Copy that , Steve. Kdawg |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Mikie
Just read an interesting article; in Earth Island Journal...What killed Dunkard Creek, here's what it said.
" Consol Energy Coal mines had been discharging waste directly into Dunkard Creek as the cause of the algae bloom (sulfide's) & fish kill not Fracking."
By the way, fracking does not produce sulfides, which is what Dunkard Creek had extremely high levels of.
Pa. and WV. Enviromental agencies concluded that the algae (Golden Algae) bloom was largely the result of acid mining, not Fracking.
Wv. Department of Enviromental Protection..."The Dunkard issue is mine water, everything we've got points to mining discharge.
The agencies also state near the end of the article that fracking wastewater nearby was illegally dumped by a very Shaddy trucking company.
These company's executives should be held liable and should be in jail!
I'm all for clean air & water even though you guys think that I am some sort of a anti-environment industrialist.
I'm just saying that I have worked (still do) at very heavy industrial sites all across the U.S. and know first-hand what they do to protect our environment... If they don't follow the laws of the land, then they should be punished accordingly.
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Location: Brighton CO. | Today's Engineer's are working on all kinds of things for when the day comes when we have no or very little oil, but it takes time for the technologies to come together. By the time this stuff is in everyday use we'll be long gone. In the mean time there will be some growing pains. Like when they used Whales for oil (like in the book Moby Dick) by the time Whales were being hunted down we found crude oil. |
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Posts: 574
| chuckski - 2/14/2023 2:15 PM
Today's Engineer's are working on all kinds of things for when the day comes when we have no or very little oil, but it takes time for the technologies to come together. By the time this stuff is in everyday use we'll be long gone. In the mean time there will be some growing pains. Like when they used Whales for oil (like in the book Moby Dick) by the time Whales were being hunted down we found crude oil.
Speaking of whales, the offshore wind farms are doing a number on them. There is a cost to all energy. |
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| Hello all. Mikie, it's been awhile!
I would like to preface this with a few things:
1. I have worked in the natural gas drilling industry for about 15 years.
2. I "cut my teeth" fishing muskies on Dunkard Creek as I grew up in the area.
3. I have a masters degree in energy management.
Also it's important to know that I am a businessman, not a scientist. I just wanted to provide some insight to the truth as i know it.
A couple points about fracking overall:
1. Is it "green" energy, nope, absolutely not.
2. Has it gotten better over time? Yes.
Fossill fuel development is a necessary evil. In regards to fracking I think an overall fight against the practice is misguided. It's abundantly clear that it is here to stay at least for awhile. I see "fracking" as a general term when used from an environmental standpoint.
The ugly about fracking:
1. Flowback/produced water: This was and still is in some capacity a huge issue early in on in shale development. "Flowback Pits" were utilized early on, however it was found that the hoses inside of the pits would flop around, literally putting a hold in the liner, causing leaks and contamination. This has been largely addressed from a regulatory standpoint and pits are no longer utilized for produced water, sealed tanks are now used.
2. Flaring: As someone who never thought much about it I can say that after standing near a well that was being flared, it is absolutely toxic and should not happen. This has largely been addressed and flaring is only used in emergency situations now (I think).
3. Earthquakes: This is not actually caused from fracking so much as the use of injection wells. It is my understanding that injecting the produced water downhole can actually lubricate the plates. Again I am not a scientist...
The point i am attempting to make is that it is not necessarily fracking so much as the practices and processes adopted by the industry and regulatory agencies. And it is my opinion that the current biggest challenge is dealing with the produced water. Something that is currently being developed is the treatment of produced water as a monetary asset by removing by products (lithium) from treating the produced water. This is very exciting because it is potentially a huge environmental win, a way to monetize the treatment of the water, and there is a huge need for those by products/rare earth elements. Both Penn State University and West Virginia University are conducting extensive research in this area as not only a potential produced water solution but also as a way to treat coal waste economically. This would be a huge win for the environment as the entirety of Appalachia suffers from AMD pollution in our waterways from previous coal mining operations. This would also reduce our dependence on China for those rare earth elements.
Dunkard Creek: Again, THE TRUTH AS I KNOW IT
I have spent countless hours on Dunkard Creek and anyone who knows much about me knows that I have a special fondness of the place. However that entire area has suffered greatly from decades of fossil fuel development which is ongoing and won't be stopping anytime soon.
Previous to the massive fish kill on Dunkard there were extensive AMD issues so far as the lower portions of the creek were regularly orange. A number of these had been addressed by the Dunkard Creek Watershed association as well as the WV and PA DEP. I know that at least one AMD treatment site was installed previous to the fish kill and the water quality I believe was benefiting substantially. Things were looking up for Dunkard.
Then the fish kill happened. I remember I was sitting at my desk as a corporate slug when I heard the news and immediately stood up, looked at my boss, told her what happened and stated "if this was us, I quit." But it wasn't.
So this is the TRUTH AS I KNOW IT about what happened at Dunkard creek and what could have prevented it:
There was not in fact one event that caused this. There was a perfect storm. In order for the algae that was in Dunkard Creek to bloom, there needed to be a very high level of sulphides/chlorides (I don't know the correct term, not a scientist.) AND THE ALGAE NEEDED TO GET INTO THE WATERSHED IN THE FIRST PLACE. There was/is also an injection well very close to Dunkard Creek as well as multiple untreated AMD discharges.
Here is my version of the events that actually took place to cause this.
The natural gas companies were utilizing Dunkard Creek as a water resource for their fracking operations. The way this takes place is very simple, a tanker truck pulls up, sticks its hose in, and fills the truck. They use the fresh water to frack the well.
The algae that caused the fish kill had previously only been found in Texas. This makes me think of the countless times pulling up to a lake and having my trailer/boat checked for invasive weeds. IMO clearly a truck from Texas was used in the Dunkard Creek watershed (and there were are a lot of them) that had previously been used in Texas, and never washed. It is that simple in my opinion and experience.
So now the algae is in the watershed, which already has high levels of AMD. But not nearly high enough to cause what happened.
This next portion is absolutely rumor, non-conclusive THE TRUTH AS I KNOW IT.
After the algae is in the watershed, there was a shut down of the injection well. I don't necessarily believe it was shut down because there were any problems, I believe it could have been shut down for a number of simple reasons and really just don't know.
There was a local businessman/trucking company hauling produced water to that injection well. I believe there may have been tension between the parties, but in any case it is possible that very simply the produced water was dumped directly into the creek, causing the huge spike in sulfides etc. Leading to the fish kill.
So was this caused by fracking, coal mining, or poor stewardship. I guess the only answer is yes to all. That being said prior to fracking, the creek was in despair from mining. Fracking isn't awesome from an environmental standpoint but the green solutions just aren't realistic to me on the scale that is necessary. And the reality is switching from coal to gas has reduced emissions, however the coal mining industry is alive and well exporting to China.
So the world we live in needs real solutions that can be achieved with a little more common sense and a lot less politics. I am generally not a regulation guy, but more regulation/oversight of a few simple processes as well as science and capitalism could provide viable long term solutions.
I will remove myself from my soap box now.
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| I think a lot of environmental "disasters" occur when companies cut corners, do not follow their own stated procedures. The recent 500,000 gallon Keystone pipeline spill and the massive spill in the Kalamazoo area were not detected by the systems the companies claim to have in place. Not until someone actually observed the spill was action taken. The Kalamazoo spill went on for hours. There were supposed to be systems in place that would detect and stop such an occurrence. Nope.
I don't know what the alternative is but when folks talk about the safety of the pipelines, I encourage them to look at the overhead photos of the Kalamazoo spill.
And for years there has been an ongoing fight over the massive pipelines that go along the bottom in the straits of Mackinaw. They are old, the sand on which they once rested has eroded and now big sections are unsupported. If they crack, the great lakes are going to see damage unlike anything before. All comes down to money. The state would like to see them run in a tunnel under the straits, company feels this is unnecessary and far too expensive. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Tomyv1,
very well put and informative.
Thanks for having a commonsense approach to life. |
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Location: central Wisconsin | How about the disaster that's happening in Ohio? Railway, not pipelines or fracking. Very hard to find much coverage of this from our anti pipeline media and current government. |
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| All I can say about what is happening in East Palestine is that it seems to be being managed by bafoons. There HAD to be a better way to manage the situation. Anyone remember the old "ACID RAIN" days....that's what I think about when I see what's happening in Ohio. However it still begs the question what happened to all the acid rain???? They must have taken care of that when they invented the internet.
Time to put down the computer! |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I think the acid rain scare was a projection that turned out to be less threatening than originally thought. I was involved in a portion of that in the study phase during testing and sampling. A lot, I believe, of the issue was removed by cleaning up industrial and civilian emissions significantly. We are not anywhere near projections from the early stages of research.
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| Steve, I agree with your assessment there. Do you think that could be a possibility with the east Palestine Ohio situation? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That's a total train wreck.
Sorry, couldn't resist. |
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| Thanks tomyv1. Very cogent. |
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Location: Brighton CO. | Acid Rain was a big problem in the 70's in Quebec and New York and some other parts of eastern U.S. They knew what caused it and cleaned it up. I know of one instant of Acid Rain in the Vilas/Onieda area back in the 70's, I think it was a late season rain. Turned out ok with a lot of lakes in the area having moving water (AKA a lake chain/ river system)
Going back to energy if we look back 500 years ago there are places in Europe where you could not find a tree or stick of wood to save your life (everything got burnt for cooking and staying warm) Then when the Europeans come over the native peoples were 500-600 years behind technologically wise. They did not have adapt with all the natural resources. So today we have to change but easier said then done. The mother of invention will have to kick in. |
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| Interesting read regarding AMD clean up and how extensive and complex the issues are in this area.
https://www.dep.pa.gov/OurCommonWealth/Pages/Article.aspx?post=92
https://www.energy.gov/fecm/funding-notice-bipartisan-infrastructure...
If the university studies successfully provide data points toward commercial viability of removing rare earth elements from the treatment of AMD water, funding would be much less of an issue as the sites would be profitable and at the same time helping solve what I believe is the biggest issue facing our streams and rivers in Appalachia.
Edited by tomyv1 2/22/2023 11:15 AM
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| https://spillhero.com/pennsylvania-man-pleads-guilty-to-illegal-dump...
https://www.timesonline.com/story/news/local/2013/02/12/marcellus-go...
Also not mentioned is that his step-daughter committed suicide over the "mess ," I would not be so rude to mention this except for it is part of the decision for such a light sentence handed down by the local judge, who has now been removed due to his own "messes." Mr. Shipman however lives a quiet and wealthy life in what is essentially a mansion in a quiet "holler" on the WV border which was built on my families original "homestead." We aren't friends.
One more and I am done I promise:
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/10/12/12green...
Edited by tomyv1 2/22/2023 12:04 PM
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| sworrall - 2/16/2023 1:29 PM
I think the acid rain scare was a projection that turned out to be less threatening than originally thought. I was involved in a portion of that in the study phase during testing and sampling. A lot, I believe, of the issue was removed by cleaning up industrial and civilian emissions significantly. We are not anywhere near projections from the early stages of research.
Once the problem was identified, steps were taken. Got a reminder of this past weekend up in Marquette, MI. On the upper harbor, all that remains of what was once one of the largest coal fired power plants in the Mid West is the concrete slab and footings. It is jarring if you were familiar with the plant. I rented a nearby house across the street from Lake Superior for about 18 months and drove or jogged past the plant every day. Later, one of my neighbors was the managing engineer for the plant. But, it was old and the emissions were so bad they tore it down. When operating, one story said acidification of lakes in Canada could be traced back to that plant. Something to do with jet streams? |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Can someone just tell Tomyv1 to get the #*^@ boat, get his poopy ready to fish, and figure out when we're going?
Frack this. Let's fish. |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | And if anyone is wondering, I never say the word "poopy". Stupid filtering software. |
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| On fire! Must fish soon... |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | tomyv1 - 2/23/2023 1:36 PM
On fire! Must fish soon...
Buying next Kayak next week. Will be rigged a week after. Come here, we chase trouts or muskies or whatevers. |
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Posts: 9
| Nothing to worry about we will just inject it downhole......
https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/special-reports/train-derailment/o... |
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