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| Message Subject: How far and how they get there. | |||
bturg |
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Posts: 716 | Seasonal patterns re: location, migration routes, getting there in the first place. The "how far they go thread drift" got me thinking about the issue of fish Navigation. I have searched long and hard for anything directly associated with fish movement from a navigational standpoint. I see so many of the same (yes the same) fish in the same locations at the same time of the year over and over (that should tell you I fished the same water way to much and too long) that the migration to those spots is highly predictable. Somehow the fish move around the body of water and get back to the same locations over and over...we know that much. The question is how do they get there ? If a fish has a preference for a specif location at different times of the year how in the heck does it get from one to another. Picture yourself in scuba gear, ten feet down on a stained Canadian shield lake trying to navigate from mid lake maybe .5 to 20 miles to "that point or that bay that I like". The closet thing to a theory that I have some agreement with is that there a kind of use of the gravitational magnetic fields that hold us to the ground to navigate. It makes the most sense to me vs other senses: smell...too much variability (although I can see following large bait masses like Cisco with it), sight... too limited, etc etc. To be clear it's not my theory just the one that made the most sense to me...and it was a salmon study that I am stretching to muskies. Then once we figure that out we can try to figure out HOW they find their seasonal routes in the fist place For example : how did such a huge population of fish find the north sand on Millacs in the first place fifteen years back...huge numbers from a huge lake all showed up there for ten years till they all pretty much perished. How does a fish find its preferred point, reef, bay in the first place. How does it remember how to get back there and then to the next spot. Tough subject with no clear answers that I know of. | ||
| chuckski |
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Posts: 1392 Location: Brighton CO. | We chase these things with all our tech. and they have a brain the size of a pea. They learn where the food is and where to find a mate in the spring and how to find the right water temp ECT. And they may travel great distance to find these things. Or like a Smallmouth live there whole life in a couple hundred yards or less. | ||
| kap |
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Posts: 552 Location: deephaven mn | How did they find the sand on Mille Lacs? Intersting question. Some were probably stocked close within a few miles. Its a huge area. My thought is a good spot is a good spot and holds fish of all species. I think bait is one of the key parts of the reason fish habitate an area. I fished the northshore sand 20 years before muskies showed up and it held walleyes lots of walleyes and still does, again bait is the draw. The massive cabbage beds adjacent (some what close) is another pull. Rocks start just south of there again somewhat close (couple miles for both) But why the sand? Leech lake same question? is it the same reason we are attracted to sand beaches? Just a very nice spot? easy travel? | ||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 355 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Teleost Fish Can Use Multiple, Parallel Spatial Strategies for Navigation Fish can rely on a multiplicity of sensory cues and sources of spatial information for orientation and navigation. For example, they can use visual [15,16,17,18], olfactory [19,20], auditory [21,22], lateral line [23,24,25], and electrosensory information [26,27,28,29], as well as diverse sources of directional information to orient and navigate, such as sun position [30,31], polarized light gradient [32,33], geomagnetic compass [34,35], or water current direction [36,37]. In addition, like mammals and birds, teleost fish can use a variety of spatial navigation strategies that are dissociable at behavioral and neural levels. Some authors have categorized in different hierarchies the variety of navigation strategies that animals can potentially use. For example, it has been proposed that spatial strategies can range from taxis, stereotyped stimulus-response associations, and guidance behavior, based on egocentric (“body-centered”) frames of spatial reference, to allocentric (“external world-centered”) navigation based on “cognitive maps” of the environment [38,39]. Other classifications separate “local navigation” strategies (i.e., target or beacon approaching, snapshot orienting, recognition-triggered responses, path-integration, route following), based on current sensory information provided by the immediately perceivable environment, from “way-finding” strategies (i.e., topological navigation, survey or metric navigation), that involve the use of some sort of spatial representation of environmental information about terrains placed beyond the current range of perception [40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51]. Carefully controlled laboratory experiments have shown that fish can generate egocentrically referenced orientation responses, centered on the animal’s receptive surfaces or body axes, such as turning at a determined angle at the choice point in a plus-maze or guidance by local visual cues or a beacon associated with the goal position. These experiments also showed that, in addition to egocentric spatial strategies, fish can perform “place” responses, potentially denoting the use of an allocentric (“world-centered”) spatial coordinate reference system for navigation, likely based on map-like memory representations anchored to the spatial environment and independent of the subject’s own position [17,52,53]. From the article "Spatial Cognition in Teleost Fish: Strategies and Mechanisms" by Fernando Rodríguez et al. - Journal - Animals 2021, 11(8), 2271 I tend towards using the concentrations of phermones in their feces as to getting to their favourite hangouts quickly, much in the same way all the animals we tend to know: dogs, cats, deer, coyotes, bears, etc do the same sort of thing on land I had to consider these concepts in my own research - if we consider introduced smelt into Lake Winnipeg, how do 2, 10 or even 50 smelt find each other in the 10th largest lake in the world and turn into probably billions within a few years in a brand new unknown environment? It must be by phermonal cues. To me this also explains why muskies that already have a "home" base (natal waters) do not wander much. It doesn't make sense to go where there are none of your kind, and the concentration of your kind's phermones probably determine the extent of their home boundaries. Edited by Angling Oracle 11/24/2022 8:55 AM | ||
| Kirby Budrow |
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Posts: 2325 Location: Chisholm, MN | How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does. Joe Dirt | ||
| Solitario Lupo |
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 Location: PA Angler | Going back to my trout and salmon days. When I was fishing for them I did some research. Found that they are stocked small in the creeks and what’s amazing is they swim out into the lakes get big and then swim up the same creek that they are stocked in to spawn. They have some kind of sense by smell discoloration of waters and I’ve read others but don’t know how true but they seem to find the right creek as I’m sure some get confused and go up other creeks. So with that being said Muskie are the same when coming to spawning they do travel to come back to their original waters. I never New this but watch some YouTube vids of migrating Muskie getting back to their spawning grounds. A lot of Muskie out here in PA are now stocked so my biggest places to fish are below dams. Got some lakes that they stocked and the Muskie get flushed down the dams into the creeks. Every spring around spawning good numbers of Muskie gather below these(certain) dams. I guess with no obstacles and good water conditions they can go for miles. | ||
| TCESOX |
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Posts: 1276 | If I remember correctly (almost 40 years ago)from one of my college biology classes, probably Animal Behavior, one of the main ways salmon find their way back to the spawning grounds of their birth, is water chemistry. Each stream has a unique chemical makeup (perhaps pheromones are part of that makeup). The lateral line is an amazing organ. There is the ability to sense vibration (hearing), but also chemical (smell/taste). Fish also have taste sensation in various concentrations throughout the exterior of their bodies. I'm sure a lot more has been learned in the 40 years since, and assume their are multiple influences on how they do this. What I'm really intrigued by, are what seem to be individuals, who have wanderlust. The fish that just strike out on their own. They are not making a long journey with others, in pursuit of of large quantities of food. They're not making a migration for reproductive purposes. While there are some general seasonal movements they all have, some are homebodies that do not roam out of their general neighborhoods, others may cover fairly large areas, but some just go nuts, and make incredible journeys, seemingly alone. Edited by TCESOX 11/24/2022 11:20 AM | ||
| North of 8 |
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TCESOX - 11/24/2022 11:17 AM If I remember correctly (almost 40 years ago)from one of my college biology classes, probably Animal Behavior, one of the main ways salmon find their way back to the spawning grounds of their birth, is water chemistry. Each stream has a unique chemical makeup (perhaps pheromones are part of that makeup). The lateral line is an amazing organ. There is the ability to sense vibration (hearing), but also chemical (smell/taste). Fish also have taste sensation in various concentrations throughout the exterior of their bodies. I'm sure a lot more has been learned in the 40 years since, and assume their are multiple influences on how they do this. What I'm really intrigued by, are what seem to be individuals, who have wanderlust. The fish that just strike out on their own. They are not making a long journey with others, in pursuit of of large quantities of food. They're not making a migration for reproductive purposes. While there are some general seasonal movements they all have, some are homebodies that do not roam out of their general neighborhoods, others may cover fairly large areas, but some just go nuts, and make incredible journeys, seemingly alone. Yes, in Alaska they used to allow corporations to create salmon runs on streams that did not have a natural run. There is one just north of Juneau that was started by a native corporation. The stream is part of a park so you can observe the fish there in August. South of Ketchikan there is another artificial run. Saw the tail end of that one, hundreds of salmon swimming up a fish ladder and right into the plant. While downtown Ketchikan has a huge natural migration, the one south of town is completely man created. | |||
| Angling Oracle |
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Posts: 355 Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | TCESOX - 11/24/2022 11:17 AM What I'm really intrigued by, are what seem to be individuals, who have wanderlust. The fish that just strike out on their own. They are not making a long journey with others, in pursuit of of large quantities of food. They're not making a migration for reproductive purposes. While there are some general seasonal movements they all have, some are homebodies that do not roam out of their general neighborhoods, others may cover fairly large areas, but some just go nuts, and make incredible journeys, seemingly alone. We have the Lake Winnipeg musky as an example of such a fish. The way you can look at this is if the cues are zero (ie no signs of your kind around) you are going to keep going, perhaps without success, on a search mission. We have the occasional couple young bull elk that come through our area every few years and no females nearby for hundreds of miles - they are looking. Most likely wind up in a freezer or perhaps they make their way back. On the predator side we also have the occasional cougar and at this point they have more or less colonized the parkland area of province - with two attacks on humans this past year. These are essentially colonizing forays given size of territories. Edited by Angling Oracle 11/24/2022 12:07 PM | ||
| TCESOX |
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Posts: 1276 | One reason that I figure, that fish like muskie, might feel free to go on an extended foray, is that as an apex predator, they are not concerned about feeding, as they can easily find food. If it is small food, they may hang around and gorge, so they don't have to eat for a long time, or, if they eat a large meal, they don't have to eat for quite a while. Either way, they have a variety of ways and types of forage, that they can eat, and aren't too concerned about finding food. | ||
| bturg |
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Posts: 716 | https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/11/8/2271 Sit down with a case of beer and read this referenced above. You may get a headache...and it won't be from the beer. Or you could just go with....they manage thru a variety of inputs and leave it at that. Thanks for the reference AO Edited by bturg 11/25/2022 6:55 PM | ||
| tundrawalker00 |
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Posts: 504 Location: Ludington, MI | Yeah, tell me how smart they are the next time you can't raise your Ulterra because a 48 smacked it, lol. | ||
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