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| I think you hit the nail on the head Cady. We must learn to work together for the future of musky fishing as being one of the top priorities, along with others having their fun and making any monies.
In my last visit to Thorne Brothers, Pat Smith was livid about the current effort here in Minnesota to legalize spearing on Minnesota musky
lakes. He showed me a DNR hearing schedule that touched every metro lake that has good muskie fishing.
At every hearing Smith attended, there where between 30-50 people FOR spearing and less than half a dozen representing the musky fisherman voice.
And, I ain't talking the Indian spearer either...
I am still shocked by that effort... Spearing muskies here in Minnesota? On Tonka? On White Bear? On ???
Edited by ddfenner 11/21/2003 2:01 PM
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Posts: 376
Location: Lake Vermilion Tower, MN | Hey DD,
Food for thought my friend, I to wish all this birckering between us muskie anglers could stop.
The anti's gotta love this stuff!
John,
Please tell me the difference if I
catch a muskie in a tournament for cash, or you catch one in an MI event, for your ego and a trophy?
The more restrictions we get, only move us a step closer to not being able to fish at all.
No More Tourmanents....
No More Muskies...sound familiar? |
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Posts: 136
| Originally written by john skarie on 2003-11-20 2:32 PM
"Since you brought it up, no I don't like the judge boat system; 1st and foremost, how safe is it for a person to jump boat to boat in 3 foot or bigger waves? That is just stupid. I also know first hand (been told by fomer judges and contestants) that it is not uncommon for a boat to give the wrong coordinates, or for the judge to be slow in getting there for a variety of reasons. Don't BS me, this has happened more than occasionaly. Is everyone in the tournament going to have a huge net where a 54" fish can easliy lay out and recover while waiting? Anybody with common sense knows in windy conditions a fish can't revive very well in a net, especially if it isn't big enough. You got a good shot at fish 50"+ on all these lakes, I'm a little more concerned about the fish than any tournament. That's why the MMCT is set up on medium size lakes. The chances at 3' waves is very slim. This also is the reason for medium sized lakes that telling the judge where you are will be MUCH easier than a huge lake like Mille Lacs or Winnie. No BS needed. Also using the simple words of east side / west side / north side etc.. will help out a ton. As far as a huge net... I'd recommend it anytime I was fishing tournament or not. Thirdly, your idea of tagging fish after the stress of being played caught with radios is putting more stress on fish during warm water periods (the DNR would only tag in cold water temps when fish are green out of nets and knocked out with drugs so they don't thrash and get hurt), and the DNR is not interested in any kind of telemetry study. They will tell you that, it's not my words or idea. So don't think that tying in a study is going to give your tournament credibility. "
hehe credibility. That's funny. No, I'm looking for fact. [QUOTE}C'mon, why so hostile. My personal opinion is on a lake like Detroit, a 60 boat tournament is overkill. And if you don't believe it, than go for it. That lake is a zoo on the weekends. Promoting overcrowded conditions on a highly recreational lake cannot be good publicity for anybody. JS{/QUOTE} Not hostile just passionate. By the way I 1/2 agree with you... on Big Detroit traffic... wouldn't find me on it except late or early in the year tournament or not. In Oct I think a one day 60 boat tournament would be perfect. But that's my opinion. |
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| EXACTLY DD!!! Anyone interested in starting a group that focuses on ONE thing and that is expanding the Muskies range in MN? More Muskies? Heck that's not a bad idea... I'm serious anyone interested? OPEN TO ALL!!!!!! Don't say the MN Musky Alliance could do this..
Edited by Fish It 11/21/2003 2:10 PM
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Location: Eau Claire, WI | Just curious Steve,
"That's also why the MMCT is trying to work with Muskies INC. and give something back to the resource by paying Judges and ALSO donating from our "Resource fund" to the Muskies inc. chapter that the judges are from."
How much are judge boats paid and how does paying judges "give back to the resource"?
Also, I count a total of 6 events. 5 @ 60 boats and 1 @ 50. Assuming full fields in all makes the $10 resource fee total $3500 per year.
Does that money all go to the MI chapters or partly to MDNR too? If money into the MDNR, does that go into general fund or can you really earmark it for muskies only? Where else could it go?
John Skarie,
How much money do the MN MI chapters put into the resource each year? Seems Fargo Moorhead alone spent $5K on the 5 mile point acquisition not to mention the man hours involved which has a price tag too. Were there any tournament trails involved with the 5 mile point project?
Just trying to get an idea of how much goes back into the resource and whats a more significant source of that support - for-profit or non-profit sources.
Is there any fact showing that tournies have expanded the musky range or enhanced musky fishing for the general public? If you already have groups that don't like muskies, how can 60 muskie fishing boats on any body of water where the antis also fish help with the winning of "hearts and minds" in this matter?
I'm not anti tournament. I fish in 1 or 2 MI events each year but I don't buy into the idea that tournaments are some sort of golden be all end all for improving musky fishing simply because they are high profile. I'm open minded though so please point out to me the significant impact tournament fishing has on improving fishing vs. the work of MI and other clubs? Seems these tourneys have been around for a while now, whats going on? Enlighten me! Over here in WI, I don't see all organized events as friends of the resource.
At the end of the day, they are simply competitive events that utilize a public resource to profit and remain in business - some win some lose and some make money - and they appeal to a certain segment of the musky market but not even close to a majority. They are by nature explotive no different (other than harvesting) than a bow hunter in 300 acres vs. 25 guys with rifles driving a 40. What is more invasive? Maybe I'm wrong though, someone please show me why.
John Skarie secretive?
Thanks, good debate.
Jono
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| Well, there comes a time and it's coming very soon ( if not already here )were the push to increase the interest in musky fishing is going to have to realize that this wonderful fish, our wonderful sport is quickly running out of room for everybody to participate in.
In Minnesota, we have lots of lakes to expand into yet this isn't an easy effort.
Call it what ever title deems appropriate, but count me in with regards to time, effort and monies.
It's time to walk the talk people. If you enjoy this wonderful sport, you must realize that there are lots of other people whom do not want us to enjoy this sport.
Lake shore associations here in Minnesota present a very big hurdle and I think we have to put aside the arguments that they don't own these waters because they are very organized and have deep pockets to fight us.
The image of musky fishing, both tournament and non-tournament anglers, should begin to think of ways of approaching these groups to show we are not like the other tournament/non-tournament specie anglers and be creative in our thinkings to show that we do care about their lake shore experiences and we do want to contribute to both theirs and our enjoyments.
Ideas can range from a group of musky anglers using their equipment to pick up the trash left by others to attending their meetings and begin a constructive exchange to work things out. Perhaps some monies contributed towards non-muskie stockings will get them to allow some muskie stockings.
What choice is there if we do not? Their opinions are well known and how do we begin the process of starting them to change?
I don't have all the answers, but I feel sitting on the sidelines and doing nothing isn't the answer either.
Just as I shudder to the reality of yet another tournament circuit, I don't feel the same this time because I feel this format, this leadership is trying to help everybody in the musky world, and it is at a unique point in musky fishing history to expand their scope and address the issues of all other interested parties.
While I maybe not at the point of wanting to put my arms around the big Ace from the Big V and give him a BIG WET ONE, I am willing to respect his preferences and help him and others to turn this ship around and get it on the right course where everybody can be heard and changes made to try and please the most people and their preferences.
Again, the choice of just complaining and doing nothing isn't a choice anymores.
I hope the day where I catch a TONKA musky with spear marks doesn't come.
I'll probably break every Diamondback rod I own.
Edited by ddfenner 11/21/2003 3:03 PM
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| I was at the spearing meeting for Bald Eagle and White bear,,,We had them outnumbered by 15-1 with the one spearer showing up because he thought it was about vermillion,,I havent heard that searers have showed up much at all in the metro meetings |
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| Hooker, give Pat Smith at Thorne Brothers a call. He already chewed my butt for not being at these hearings and my excuse of not knowing about these meetings wasn't an excuse (to him).
Edited by ddfenner 11/21/2003 3:20 PM
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Posts: 5230
| Cady you have some great ponts here,but I personally have fished both types of tournaments and do not know if either is right.Honor system just plain and simple no way,judge boat you wait way to long I could share many stories on this issue but I will save that for another day,transport tournament only one location usually not good on great big waters and a no go in Minnesota.I like your idea but Minnesota is a tough musky crowd,so do what is best for you Mr. Cady.Do not put your good reputation on the line if upsets to many others.I personally like the idea but I am just a common from Chicago.good luck 0723 Bill ramsey |
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| Jono, Originally written by Jono on 2003-11-20 3:46 PM Just curious Steve, "That's also why the MMCT is trying to work with Muskies INC. and give something back to the resource by paying Judges and ALSO donating from our "Resource fund" to the Muskies inc. chapter that the judges are from." How much are judge boats paid and how does paying judges "give back to the resource"?Judge boats will be paid $100.00 for the day and an additional $100.00 to the judges Muskies Inc. chapter. If the judge is not a member of Muskies Inc. then only $100.00 would be paid to the judge. This is designed to attract Muskies Inc. members that have a knowledge of muskies to be judges. Also, I count a total of 6 events. 5 @ 60 boats and 1 @ 50. Assuming full fields in all makes the $10 resource fee total $3500 per year. Does that money all go to the MI chapters or partly to MDNR too? If money into the MDNR, does that go into general fund or can you really earmark it for muskies only? Where else could it go? I offered the $$$ to John and the MN Musky Alliance and was told directly by John that he would "Quit the alliance" before he would accept it. He recommended donating it directly to the DNR. John Skarie, How much money do the MN MI chapters put into the resource each year? Seems Fargo Moorhead alone spent $5K on the 5 mile point acquisition not to mention the man hours involved which has a price tag too. Were there any tournament trails involved with the 5 mile point project? Yes, the PMTT donated to the raffle. Not sure why a pissing match over whom donated what and how much makes alot of sense. muskies Inc. is non profit. The MMCT is for profit but also realizes it must give something back. Does every business involved in fishing/Muskies give back. ALSO I WAS INVOLVED IN HELPING ON THE 5 MILE POINT PROJECT as a MI member & tournament angler. Just trying to get an idea of how much goes back into the resource and whats a more significant source of that support - for-profit or non-profit sources. Is there any fact showing that tournies have expanded the musky range or enhanced musky fishing for the general public? If you already have groups that don't like muskies, how can 60 muskie fishing boats on any body of water where the antis also fish help with the winning of "hearts and minds" in this matter? Nope I have no fact on that. in fact I doubt that many have had an effect on expanding the range. They may have helped in getting more anglers involved. Do you have facts that it hasn't? What is your solution Jono? I'm not anti tournament. I fish in 1 or 2 MI events each year but I don't buy into the idea that tournaments are some sort of golden be all end all for improving musky fishing simply because they are high profile. I'm open minded though so please point out to me the significant impact tournament fishing has on improving fishing vs. the work of MI and other clubs? Seems these tourneys have been around for a while now, whats going on? Enlighten me! Over here in WI, I don't see all organized events as friends of the resource. Did you think I'm bashing MI Jono? The impact of tournament fishing vs. the work of MI? MI and the ideals of Gil Hamm has done more than anything or anyone. Gil Hamm and Muskies Inc. is THE REASON that this tournament trail is giving back. I learned by being a member of Muskies Inc. that we all must give something back. Where have a said that Muskies Inc. is bad or attacked Muskies inc?? At the end of the day, they are simply competitive events that utilize a public resource to profit and remain in business - some win some lose and some make money - and they appeal to a certain segment of the musky market but not even close to a majority. They are by nature explotive no different (other than harvesting) than a bow hunter in 300 acres vs. 25 guys with rifles driving a 40. What is more invasive? Maybe I'm wrong though, someone please show me why. Harvesting is the big issue here. No way can you compare them. Musky Hunting isn't Esox angling and Musky fishing isn't bow hunting or rifle hunting unless it's done with a spear. Bow hunter in 30 acres vs. 25 guys with rifles huh? Yeah your right that's exactly the same as 60 boats on 3000 acres for one day. |
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| Originally written by 0723 on 2003-11-20 4:20 PM
Cady you have some great ponts here,but I personally have fished both types of tournaments and do not know if either is right.Honor system just plain and simple no way,judge boat you wait way to long I could share many stories on this issue but I will save that for another day,transport tournament only one location usually not good on great big waters and a no go in Minnesota.I like your idea but Minnesota is a tough musky crowd,so do what is best for you Mr. Cady.Do not put your good reputation on the line if upsets to many others.I personally like the idea but I am just a common from Chicago.good luck 0723 Bill ramsey Bill, hehhe Not sure if I fit the "good reputation" quote.:) I knew what I was getting into and beleive that I can make a difference. I won't hide or run away and not respond to questions as others have in the past. Tournaments are not perfect and have the potential to hurt the resource just as ordinary angling can. I beleive that a correctly run tournament can have positive impact instead of a negative one. Minnesota is a tough crowd but mostly because everyone has a genuine concern for the resource. I happen to like John Skarie and respect him for speaking his beliefs. I don't agree with him on some things and that's ok. I can honestly say I would have NEVER even thought about getting into tournament promoting and making sure it was giving back to the resource if it wasn't for Muskies Inc, John & others like him.
Edited by Fish It 11/21/2003 4:17 PM
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| I DID not think you would run and hide just be ready for a fifteen round fight that you could be very battered.Think to yourself is it worth it?Could I just be out fishing headache free.I really think you will do many positives,but their will be a price to pay and again is it worth it?0723
Edited by 0723 11/21/2003 4:00 PM
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| Thanks Bill! The hardest part will be not fishing when others are! |
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| That is one I forgot about.0723 |
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| I posted this last week on the MI board and got good response. Still looking for others who would be interested.
The MN Musky Championship Trail is looking for judge boats for it's 2004 tournaments. Judge boats will receive $100.00 plus an additional $100.00 will be donated in your name to the MI chapter of your choice. Contact us at [email protected] for more info.
More info about the MMCT:
The trail will consist of 5 separate 1-day qualifiers spread through out the 2004 season.
Qualifier and Championship entry fees will be $200.00 per team plus a $10.00 resource donation fee.
Limited to 60 teams per qualifying tournament.
The trail will finish up with the top 50 teams meeting at the 2004
Minnesota Musky Championship in late October.
This will be a total release NON TRANSPORT tournament trail.
Contact the MMCT at [email protected]
***Permits have NOT been received as of this date but have been applied for. The MMCT will announce dates and locations as soon as the permits are granted.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Thanks Mr. Cady. Well said. I would be pleased to judge a couple for you, no charge. You can donate all of my $ to the Milwaukee Chapter, if you would like me to join the judge boat team. |
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| Nice! Always a spot for the rocket ship! Thanks Steve you are added to the Judge boat contact list. |
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Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | Hey Steve, I'm not exactly sure what I said to you about quiting the Alliance, but I in no way meant that accepting money from you would make me quit. I have a lot of respect for the fact that you are making an effort to give back. I mean that sincerely.
I wouldn't like a donation from you to go to the Alliance for a couple of reasons, first of all some people may see that as a "buy off". Secondly I think your donation should go to the muskie program on the lake you are fishing, we couldn't guarantee that in the Alliance. If the group voted on how to spend the money there is no telling where it would go.
We disagree on the judge boat issue, and that's fine. I may well take advandtage of the donation to my MI club if there is an event I could squeeze in. I personally would like to see no judge boat tournaments, but if they are there, than I'll take advantadge of the opportunity to make money for MI in MN.
Terry, the difference in stressing the fish in a judge boat tournament VS. a non-judge boat tournament is a matter of time. If you hook, play, and release a fish (after photos whatever), there is a lot less total under stress time for the fish than if you wait for a boat to come over and then release it.I especially think that is true in rough conditions, or warmer water.
Steve, I'm not trying to sabotage your tournament, we just have different feelings on some tournament issues, and we both know I have a big mouth, and say how I feel.
John Skarie
Pres. Fargo Moorhead MI
Co-Chair MN Muskie Alliance
B.S. Aquatic Biology, Bemidji State U.
Edited by john skarie 11/22/2003 8:59 AM
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| I know of a lake that has a lot of Bass Tournaments. Some of the lake shore owners do not like all the tournaments and the trash left behind and boats zooming at 60mph. Our local MI chapter donated kids prizes to the Lake Association Ice Tournament. Muskies are not longer mentioned with swear words at the association meeting and MI is seen in a positive light. If tournaments put money into the lake the fishing was taking place, perhaps there would be less hostility towards them. AND JUST PERHAPS we could actually get more waters to fish muskies on.
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | A couple things:
The DNR has no plans to extend the range of muskies. Per their agent they don't have the money and they don't want to battle the lake shore organizations. If you think it's cheap to start a new lake, think about 15-20 grand every other year to do it right on a decent body of water. Right now there is one lake, White Bear, that isn't on the DNR stocking list. This is a lake that MI decided to start stocking after the DNR told us if we wanted it to go at it. Paul Hartman's group of guides and tournements have been the greated contributor to stocking it as late, with a nice donation (I think around $7000, but don't remember or sure) from the TC chapter this year.
On the lake side spearing meetings. MI was notified AFTER most of the meetings had already taken place. DD, you should join a metro MI if you want to be more informed or at least show up (membership is not required).
The TC chapter donates a very good chunck of money every year for rearing, stocking, and last year 5 mile point project. Most of our moneys come from the tournement me host up in the Leech Lake area (so tournements can help the resource). I can't speak to other chapters, but getting money to run an organization can be tough. MI International doesn't give any of those dues they collect back to the chapters so it's up to undraising to make things happen in a chapter. Do we're forced to do fundraisers to keep the lights on and what's left goes to the resource.
Per the DNR, if you want to personally stock a lake that has muskies in it they will let you if you get it approved, BUT they will stock that many fish less on their own in that lake. So if they (DNR) were going to put 1000 fish in it in a given year. MMTC put in 200 fish (around $3500 in fish) the DNR would only put in 800 because the plan calls for 1000 on that lake. So donating straight to the resource in question gains us nothing. The extra money in the DNR budget would probably go to walleye stocking instead of muskie.
That's the way I understand the issues mentioned in this thread. I get my info from being a member of the TC MI board, attending MA meetings and what I've been told from the DNR. I have no stake in MR. Cady's affairs and could care less if this trail happens or not. I don't plan on fishing any events due to new kid + new boat = no money!!!!!!!!
BTW, all you who were squacking and standing on your soapbox that "tournements don't give back to the resource" are still squacking and it's obvious your scrambling for another issue to block tournements.
Just observations...
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| Treats:
Where you getting your info on White Bear? Unless you mean the DNR will no longer stock in future?
2002 = 53 yearlings 90.1 lbs
2001 = 1000 fingerlings 157.4 lbs
Straight off the DNR website. |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Midge,
The DNR will only stock it if they 1. have extra fish and 2. have conditions where they still can do it.
Those fish may have been stocked by Hartmans group. Stocking reports include all fish that have been stocked no matter WHO stocked them. |
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| Nope, not a MI member. I don't think you want me and Hooker in the same room. Muskie fishing talk would not happen.
I would hate to think that this type of information is only forthcoming from MI meetings.
If it was on the boards, I just missed it. If not, it should have been because I would have attended, and I am not just saying that after the fact.
I've seen what spearing has done to Wisconsin and that's the last straw (for me) here in Minnesota.
So, if I missed this news, I wonder how many others missed it that would have shown up if they knew?
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| Treats:
I thought you were mistaken at first, but I went to Hartman's website and looked at their stocking numbers.
Doesn't match the DNR site 100%, but it is close.
Therefore, I have come to conclude that you are probably right. (As much as it hurts me to admit that :o)
I was under the impression that only DNR stocked fish were on their website.
One way or another, I don't care, as long as WBL keeps getting stocked fish. I know of a handful of 50's to come out of there this year with a rumored 54". |
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| Actually guys theres fish getting stocked in whitebear tommorow 11-25 from muskies inc,,,,,Actually the DNR most times has told us NOT to buy muskies for them because they have enough fish,,,But to keep our money in reserve for years when they run low on forrage for the ponds,,and in 2002 they really needed nets that they had no budget money for to cover their new clearwater pond because cormorants were comming and taking a big toll on fish and told us that would be money better spent then on fish,,DNR did dump some fish in whitebear one year when they had excess but has told MI you started the lake you keep it going and A local tournament promoter has also dumped a bunch of fish in too,,,You can contribute to the dnr muskie program in the form of a forage donation it dosent have to be just for stocked fish |
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| Why does the DNR not regularily stock WBL? It is a wonderful musky fishery.
Is this the deal where they decided to quit stocking and then MI contributed log books and showed that alot of fisherman do fish it and were catching fish?
So they decided they would keep stocking? |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Midge, read my first post. Years and years ago (probably around 20) the TC chapter of MI brought stocking WB up to the DNR. The DNR said that it would predominantly MI's responsibility to keep fish in it. The DNR would do their thing as far as qualifying it and so on but they weren't going to be the main force keeping it going.
This year we're adding what I think would qualify as adult fish in the 24" range. Brad had the numbers in his post. All of these fish should make it so that's very encouraging since when you add fingerlings there's about a 95% mortality (possibly higher, damn walleyes!  |
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| Heres something on whitebear that really needs to be addressed if you guys want to call town hall,,Muskies inc paid for and had errected the dock at the boat landing and the city agreed to dredge the shore there which they have never done,,Muskies inc added another section to the dock this year which we could have used the money for maybe more fish in the future instead,,,You would think the city of White Bear would look out more for the lake that bears its city name,,call them up and complain,,, Alot of The questions about whitebear can be answered by Rod Ramsell at the dnr hes in charge of the east side muskies and without a doudt the best speaker Ive ever heard on muskie biology would love to hear him give a seminar again,,
Edited by happy hooker 11/25/2003 7:20 PM
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| Hook:
Assuming you are talking about the Ramsey County landing off of Hwy 96, I would assume that is an issue to take up with the county.
I know that the Matoska Park landing by the island is run by the City of WBL and that is why you need to buy a yearly launch permit.
Not sure what the City has to do with the County landing. |
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