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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya..
I think you hit the nail on the head with the additives.. it’s not the alcohol causing the issues... it’s the other stuff...
SWorrall....it was a really cool change when they made that switch... lots of teams were worried about how the fuel would perform, how many laps they could run, etc... in all it was a great transition.. I was thinking more on the other fuels used too... methane for Indy cars... that stuff is dangerous as you cannot see it burning. Nitro methane in top fuel dragsters is really hard on your breathing... it burns your nostrils and eyes.. it they have an alcohol class as well...
Really cool stuff when you think about it.
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | OH Musky - 4/3/2019 3:10 AM
Here in Ohio one of the biggest additives is Toluene, more so than any other state or so it was. I worked in the Harley Davidson industry as a master tech. We ran into a myriad of fuel system problems for several years and couldn't figure out why. Brand new bikes would start, stall and not restart. Change out the internal and external fuel lines and they worked...for a while. Eventually enough dealers had problems that H-D finally sent some engineers out to test the fuel around the state. Turns out that Toluene was the culprit. In high enough concentrations it would cause the rubber components to soften, swell and eventually block the fuel system. This forced H-D to upgrade all the rubber fuel system components across their entire fleet.
So, while ethanol is not good for many of today's engines and fuel systems, there are other additives that can be far worse.
What engines is e10 'not good' for? We've covered that about 5 different ways here, is there an exception? |
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Posts: 386
Location: SW Ohio | sworrall - 4/3/2019 5:32 PM
OH Musky - 4/3/2019 3:10 AM
Here in Ohio one of the biggest additives is Toluene, more so than any other state or so it was. I worked in the Harley Davidson industry as a master tech. We ran into a myriad of fuel system problems for several years and couldn't figure out why. Brand new bikes would start, stall and not restart. Change out the internal and external fuel lines and they worked...for a while. Eventually enough dealers had problems that H-D finally sent some engineers out to test the fuel around the state. Turns out that Toluene was the culprit. In high enough concentrations it would cause the rubber components to soften, swell and eventually block the fuel system. This forced H-D to upgrade all the rubber fuel system components across their entire fleet.
So, while ethanol is not good for many of today's engines and fuel systems, there are other additives that can be far worse.
What engines is e10 'not good' for? We've covered that about 5 different ways here, is there an exception?
Any engine not designed for it. Any engine built prior to the inception of ethanol. Any engine and fuel system that was not designed to run ethanol without modification. Especially EFI systems that don't take into account the added fuel required to compensate for the ethanol.
Edited by OH Musky 4/3/2019 5:34 PM
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No one even suggested ethanol should be used in engines not designed for e10; my question was generated by your statement which implies those engines are considered 'today's' designs by the major engine manufacturers.
Incidentally, a majority of fuel system damages blamed on ethanol turned out to be caused by other additives. In fact, one of those additives actually is a solvent that dissolves rubber. This formulation didn't exist when the engines and fuel systems you refer to were built and also are used by major gasoline brands in non-oxygenated fuel.
Please clarify what you mean by the 'added fuel required to compensate for the ethanol', are you referring to the fuel rails?
Thanks for the clarification. |
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Posts: 661
Location: Roscoe IL | Interesting read..
I'm betting it would be a few months before I use up a full tank of gas. Based on the entertaining and informative gas threads I have been reading here, I should add stabilizer after each fill up for a Mercury Pro 150XS
I check online to order it and of course there are several types. MERC Quickstor - Fuel treatment additive and a slew of other brands and types with prices all over the place.
Now what what to do?
I'm overthinking things again i'm sure..
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ToothyCritter - 4/4/2019 10:34 AM
Interesting read..
I'm betting it would be a few months before I use up a full tank of gas. Based on the entertaining and informative gas threads I have been reading here, I should add stabilizer after each fill up for a Mercury Pro 150XS
I check online to order it and of course there are several types. MERC Quickstor - Fuel treatment additive and a slew of other brands and types with prices all over the place.
Now what what to do?
I'm overthinking things again i'm sure..
To be sure, and use Merc products:
Quicksilver Quickleen Fuel System Cleaner
Even more than the gas in your car, the gas in your ATV/UTV or dirt bike needs special care to keep your engine running at peak performance. Gasoline begins to go bad within a few weeks. When left untreated, some of the fuel components begin to oxidize and form a gum-like substance, which settles in fuel lines and tanks, carburetors, and injectors. When you try to burn this fuel, deposits can form in the combustion chamber. Over time, these deposits build up and reduce your engine’s performance.
Use Quickleen to:
Prevent engine knocking and piston seize-up
Extend spark plug life
1 ounce treats 5 gallons - 12 ounce bottle treats 60 gallons
https://www.wholesalemarine.com/quicksilver-quickleen-fuel-system-cl... |
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Posts: 93
| sworrall - 4/3/2019 4:32 PM
What engines is e10 'not good' for?
Mine.
Your mileage may vary.
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | undersized - 4/4/2019 11:20 AM
sworrall - 4/3/2019 4:32 PM
What engines is e10 'not good' for?
Mine.
Your mileage may vary.
Hiya,
That is your "choice" to believe, my friend...it is not a proven engineered fact.
Edited by VMS 4/4/2019 12:09 PM
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Posts: 410
Location: With my son on the water | I maybe should start another thread but this is still about gas.
A few years ago I had an idle issue on my merc 150 four stroke in the late fall. The motor would shake more than normal at low idle. I noticed it right before I put the boat away.
So I stored the boat and winterized as normal. Fogging the cylinders. Then in the winter I call the mercury technical hot line and got great help. The guy thought I was getting carbon from either trolling, low speed running due to being cold, or both.
He told me to run Merc Quickleen in my first tank in the spring to clean up the carbon. So I did that and it ran great.
He also told me to use Mercury Quickcare with every fill up as it has both a stabilizer and a cleaner. He then said right before winterizing to run Mercury Quickstor as it has stronger stabilizing agents and fog the cylinders when I store.
Obviously repeat the process year after year which I have been doing for about 4 years with zero issues.
Like Steve said a bottle will treat like 60 gallons and cost around $10 a bottle.
Edited by btfish 4/4/2019 12:32 PM
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | It's all about the correct process of maintenance... A great example to show just how easy and simple the process is.
Steve |
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Location: 31 | ToothyCritter - 4/4/2019 10:34 AM
I'm betting it would be a few months before I use up a full tank of gas.
Now what what to do?
Mike, if some of that gas is from last summer, I would consider draining it and starting fresh.
I've drained my boat's gas several times and all I had to do was raise the boat up with the trailer jack, disconnect the gas line after the bulb, attach a longer length of gas line to reach a gas can on the ground… a few squeezes and gravity did its thing. It's a bit of a slow process, but then you are starting off the season with clean fresh fuel.
You could also try to remember to run the tank low in the fall so it's stored with fresh fuel, if the gas in my boat sat that long I would use premium to offset degradation as well.
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | VMS - 4/4/2019 12:06 PM
undersized - 4/4/2019 11:20 AM
sworrall - 4/3/2019 4:32 PM
What engines is e10 'not good' for?
Mine.
Your mileage may vary.
Hiya,
That is your "choice" to believe, my friend...it is not a proven engineered fact.
Unless he has an older motor. If not, then revert to VMS comment. |
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Posts: 386
Location: SW Ohio | sworrall - 4/3/2019 7:31 PM
Please clarify what you mean by the 'added fuel required to compensate for the ethanol', are you referring to the fuel rails?
Thanks for the clarification.
There are older systems (most still on the road/water) that have a tendency to run lean (or leaner) when run on ethanol added fuels. Since they are not closed-loop systems there is no way for the ECM (or old carbs) to tell that the the AFR is off. Ethanol does not burn at the same rate or provide the same power as straight gasoline. If the ECM programming has not been designed to compensate for the ethanol content there can be a tendency towards detonation (knocking) under heavy load. That's where a lot of the additives come in to offset the effects.
Another thing, other than ethanol, is the supposed "nitrogen enhanced" fuels that Shell had out. While it may work well in cars, this fuel caused severe issues in air cooled motors. Cylinder and head temps were much higher when these fuels were used resulting in shortened engine life. We ran a lot of tests on Harleys that had heat issues that went away when switched off of Shell fuels. Head, oil and exhaust temps all went down, and that is a good thing for any engine.
Yes, our outboards are not Harleys and they are not air cooled. But they are closer to air cooled than a controlled water cooled system of cars. They are run at WOT for longer and give very little advance notice of an impending catastrophic failure. Excess heat is the main culprit.
While i don't like to use any ethanol added fuels in my outboard or bike, I don't have much choice as there is no straight gasoline fuels near me. I use additives to prevent any issues that may arise from ethanol, especially when on the road. At home I stick to the same gas stations each time I fill up. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What additives do you use and exactly what ethanol issues are addressed?
Today's marine engines are designed to run on e10 (they have to be) and therefore are designed to run on that mix without overheating issues. As long as your water pump is working the water jacket will handle the engine temps just fine running e10.
This is especially true in the case of the engine you are running according to your posts.
I'd really like to clarify the additives you are using and what they claim to do. I have a breakdown from independent testing as to what the more popular additives actually accomplish.
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Posts: 661
Location: Roscoe IL | Jerry Newman - 4/4/2019 2:20 PM
ToothyCritter - 4/4/2019 10:34 AM
I'm betting it would be a few months before I use up a full tank of gas.
Now what what to do?
Mike, if some of that gas is from last summer, I would consider draining it and starting fresh.
I've drained my boat's gas several times and all I had to do was raise the boat up with the trailer jack, disconnect the gas line after the bulb, attach a longer length of gas line to reach a gas can on the ground… a few squeezes and gravity did its thing. It's a bit of a slow process, but then you are starting off the season with clean fresh fuel.
You could also try to remember to run the tank low in the fall so it's stored with fresh fuel, if the gas in my boat sat that long I would use premium to offset degradation as well.
Hi Jerry,
The boat is right off the showroom floor. Come to find out Ranger does not put much gas in it at all so the tank is empty for the most part. I didn't put any in yet as I'm going to wait until the registration number comes in before I take it out for it's maiden voyage. |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | OH Musky - 4/7/2019 8:50 AM
sworrall - 4/3/2019 7:31 PM
Please clarify what you mean by the 'added fuel required to compensate for the ethanol', are you referring to the fuel rails?
Thanks for the clarification.
There are older systems (most still on the road/water ) that have a tendency to run lean (or leaner ) when run on ethanol added fuels. Since they are not closed-loop systems there is no way for the ECM (or old carbs ) to tell that the the AFR is off. Ethanol does not burn at the same rate or provide the same power as straight gasoline. If the ECM programming has not been designed to compensate for the ethanol content there can be a tendency towards detonation (knocking ) under heavy load. That's where a lot of the additives come in to offset the effects.
Response: On any carbed engine, this would be tuned out manually through fuel-air adjustment, then run completely fine. I am not aware of any efi system would not compensate for fuel air ratio due to ethanol. can you supply an engine brand and model that didn’t have this capability? And... what additives were added to offset this?
Another thing, other than ethanol, is the supposed "nitrogen enhanced" fuels that Shell had out. While it may work well in cars, this fuel caused severe issues in air cooled motors. Cylinder and head temps were much higher when these fuels were used resulting in shortened engine life. We ran a lot of tests on Harleys that had heat issues that went away when switched off of Shell fuels. Head, oil and exhaust temps all went down, and that is a good thing for any engine.
Response: Just saw this the other day and the nitrogen enhanced fuel (at least at the station I was at ) was only 91 octane... unless the engine has been modified by shaving the head or some other enhancement on the engine, there’s be no need to run the 91 octane...
Yes, our outboards are not Harleys and they are not air cooled. But they are closer to air cooled than a controlled water cooled system of cars. They are run at WOT for longer and give very little advance notice of an impending catastrophic failure. Excess heat is the main culprit.
Response: I would tend to disagree here. With outboards, they are constantly getting a supply of cold water to their system... much colder than a closed and controlled antifreeze system. It’s why an outboard engines overall have great longevity...given proper maintenance of the water pump system.
While i don't like to use any ethanol added fuels in my outboard or bike, I don't have much choice as there is no straight gasoline fuels near me. I use additives to prevent any issues that may arise from ethanol, especially when on the road. At home I stick to the same gas stations each time I fill up.
Response: The only issues you’d see running ethanol would be the time-frame in which the engine is being cleaned out of all of the residues left from non oxygenated fuels. Once that is complete, and a fuel filter change is done, you'd see absolutely no issues... The additives you add on this one as well... what are they?
Steve
Edited by VMS 4/10/2019 6:50 AM
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Posts: 323
Location: Elk River, MN | VMS - How would you recommend making the switch to e10? Should you run your tank near empty and then switch over? While also keeping an eye on the fuel filter for deposit buildup? Or could you simply add e10 to a half tank of non-oxy and carry on as you would. Any drawback to mixing the two? |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'd run a recommended mix of the engine manufacturer's fuel cleaning product in the e10 and regular fuel you run by simply filling up with e10, and watch your fuel filter, you should be just fine. |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Exactly as Steve Worrall stated.  |
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Posts: 386
Location: SW Ohio | VMS - 4/9/2019 2:13 PM
Response: The only issues you’d see running ethanol would be the time-frame in which the engine is being cleaned out of all of the residues left from non oxygenated fuels. Once that is complete, and a fuel filter change is done, you'd see absolutely no issues... The additives you add on this one as well... what are they?
Steve
I run Seafoam in my bike especially if I take a long trip on it and get fuel where ever I can. Used to run in it my Sierra but I have a diesel now. On my Merc 115 I used Quickare and Quickleen. With my new Yamaha I'm running Ring Free Plus and my leftover Merc products. I may continue to use the Merc products or go back to Seafoam or Marine Stabil. The fuel in my boat doesn't get turned over as much as any other vehicle I have so it's in a storage mode most of the time. |
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