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Location: Bloomington, MN | I spent my childhood up on Pelican Lake, WI., and the muskies for the most part had very little to no markings. The last muskie I purposely killed that wouldn't revive was in 1985 due to me not having the proper tools (Stupid/Bad Clark). 30+ years ago, I thought the fish was ugly. I had Fittante paint it up like a barred fish. I don't think there any bronze/clear fish remaining, and I believe it is due to stocking fish that do not belong in that body of water. Did the stocking erase the unique gene pool? I'm sure seeing lots of barred fish appearing in the Chippewa Flowage these days, and I'm positive they were not always present. I'm thinking Joe is getting a re-paint job if I can't pull off a big bronze off of the Flowage (got the tools!). Most young guns think a muskie is a muskie, but there has been a change in size and coloration in northern Wisconsin in the last 30 years. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Not that I fish those waters or know the stocking records but as a general rule the pattern on the fish is mostly a result of the water they're in and only minimally related to their genetics. |
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Stock mixing Wisconsin has definitely changed things as noted above. I could site many instances, but I'm sure the boys with the delete button don't wish me to go there. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Clark A - 7/18/2018 12:17 AM
I spent my childhood up on Pelican Lake, WI., and the muskies for the most part had very little to no markings. The last muskie I purposely killed that wouldn't revive was in 1985 due to me not having the proper tools (Stupid/Bad Clark). 30+ years ago, I thought the fish was ugly. I had Fittante paint it up like a barred fish. I don't think there any bronze/clear fish remaining, and I believe it is due to stocking fish that do not belong in that body of water. Did the stocking erase the unique gene pool? I'm sure seeing lots of barred fish appearing in the Chippewa Flowage these days, and I'm positive they were not always present. I'm thinking Joe is getting a re-paint job if I can't pull off a big bronze off of the Flowage (got the tools!). Most young guns think a muskie is a muskie, but there has been a change in size and coloration in northern Wisconsin in the last 30 years.
There's still quite a few of the bronze beauties left. All stocking done on Pelican now are muskies raised from netting Pelican, so for this lake, it's a positive. Once the fish in Pelican peak out, the markings are very light or almost gone on the Pelican originals, and the stockers out of Woodruff never seemed to reproduce much. In fact, the moritorium on stocking for over a decade almost tanked to population when compared to the 70's and 80's. If there isn't stocking done, that lake gets REAL tough real quickly.
Water clarity has a lot to do with it too, Pelican was for many years quite murky due to sewage seeping in from dozens of septics that were really direct drains into the lake. When those folks were forced to put in real tanks and fields, the lake reverted back to a moderately clear body of water, and as with all lakes, coloration altered due to more light penetration. Muskies from Wabigoon used to literally be white, and now are pretty and brightly marked as the sediment for the river-to-impoundment erosion settles out. |
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Location: Smith Creek | Stupid WI DNR!! Trying to rehabilitate depleted fisheries (after a generation of anglers wiped them out) with fish that don't live up to said generation's standards of growth! And even when told that a certain hatchery contained magical fish that grew to enormous sizes they still wanted to wreck our lakes with tiny muskies!
Edited by Flambeauski 7/18/2018 3:47 PM
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Location: Bloomington, MN | I looked at pic from 1976, and it did have slight bars, as well as some fish below 40" throughout the years The bigger ones up to 53 1/4" where what "we" called bronze or silvers. Since I really haven't played with a Pelican fish over 40" for quite some time, so you are likely correct. Pelican did have that sewage issue as I recall. Today I saw a pic of a 51" Pelican boat winning fish that wasn't tossed back in, and yes..Joe Fittante could have painted it with a roller. The fish I will get off the "Goon" next week will in induce Carpal Tunnel on Mr. Fittante, but allow him to head to Naples, FL for retirement! Replica of course, compliments of Mr. Steve Worralll! I'm 55 years old and haven't been this excited about a fishing trip ever. Lower units on boats are over rated! |
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| Stocking Muskies with genes that developed over a long period of time in a body of water with different water conditions than the lake you are stocking them in - one that hosts native Muskies... is pretty much putting a different "type" of Muskie in the same body of water with a different "type" of Muskie... which leads to a "mixed" fish if the stocked fish were to reproduce with the native fish. Which can, potentially... wipe out all the native genes and leave the lake with nothing but mixed fish. Would probably take some time, though...
Edited by Reelwise 7/19/2018 1:56 AM
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Location: Smith Creek | Reelwise - 7/19/2018 1:53 AM
Stocking Muskies with genes that developed over a long period of time in a body of water with different water conditions than the lake you are stocking them in - one that hosts native Muskies... is pretty much putting a different "type" of Muskie in the same body of water with a different "type" of Muskie... which leads to a "mixed" fish if the stocked fish were to reproduce with the native fish. Which can, potentially... wipe out all the native genes and leave the lake with nothing but mixed fish. Would probably take some time, though...
Somehow the gene pool on LCO managed to stay separate in spite of WI DNR's "mixing" them.
https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/fishing/documents/musky/MuskyGeneticsUpdate...
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 7/19/2018 1:53 AM
Stocking Muskies with genes that developed over a long period of time in a body of water with different water conditions than the lake you are stocking them in - one that hosts native Muskies... is pretty much putting a different "type" of Muskie in the same body of water with a different "type" of Muskie... which leads to a "mixed" fish if the stocked fish were to reproduce with the native fish. Which can, potentially... wipe out all the native genes and leave the lake with nothing but mixed fish. Would probably take some time, though...
In some instances, this is correct. In others, it is not. Two tier populations exist where the fish that have been in the system historically are still there, and the stocked fish did not reproduce either amogst themselves or with the historical population, and in the case of Pelican, the stockers didn't reproduce well at all and the population nearly crashed in comparison to what the lake offered during stocking. Without stocking, Pelican put out way fewer muskies (70's to early 80's), and fishing for stocked muskies up to trophy size was excellent in the 80's and 90's, making Pelican one of the most fished lakes for muskies in the North via creel data. Many of the 47" to 50" fish I caught off Pelican back then were stocked, so there was nothing wrong with the genetics form any population there, it's a NR problem. As stated, the stocking I am aware of since the moratorium has consisted of spawn gathered from Pelican, good for that lake. I had almost quit fishing Pelican much due to the much lower numbers (there's dozens of good lakes close to home), but am back at it now.
The largest muskie I have caught there was 54.5, and was a long time ago and a pelican bronze. The closest I have come in what was obviously not a bronze was 52. Pretty close, and the 52 was a significantly heavier fish.
Keith was worked with fisheries before coming to work at OFM, and we met some friends of his from the Woodruff station this Spring stripping muskies in Musky Bay. They had over 70 muskies in the news in two days, and were fin clipping, too. I'd say Pelican is coming back! |
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Location: oswego, il | This is interesting discussion. I wonder how much of the lack of spawning had to do with degraded water quality.
Alot of folks do not care for the illinois mutt. It's definitely a mix of every strain except spotted and sboepack. The brood live in a lake that averages 2ft deep. Fish do well in it but 45"+ fish are rare. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ToddM - 7/19/2018 7:36 PM
This is interesting discussion. I wonder how much of the lack of spawning had to do with degraded water quality.
Alot of folks do not care for the illinois mutt. It's definitely a mix of every strain except spotted and sboepack. The brood live in a lake that averages 2ft deep. Fish do well in it but 45"+ fish are rare.
In the case of Pelican, water quality is excellent. Substate and vegetation are in great condition, and the bays are perfect for spawning muskies. |
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Flambouski: What they didn't tell you was that they found a second/different genetic population in LCO after 50 years of mixing! |
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Location: Smith Creek | The dirty tricksters!! Was this info leaked to you by a rogue DNR agent? Are you able to share the documentation?
It's impressive that there was any original specimens to mix with the "substandard" specimens after years of selective harvest of the original gene pool.
Easier to blame the DNR, though.
Edited by Flambeauski 7/20/2018 9:48 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Larry Ramsell - 7/20/2018 7:28 AM
Flambouski: What they didn't tell you was that they found a second/different genetic population in LCO after 50 years of mixing!
I haven't seen this report either, would be interesting to see what's happening there now. This thread is about Pelican, and I'd like to keep a focus on what the OP was looking for. If we want to look over the whole 'it's the fish' issue again, we can take that discussion to the biology board, it's a very interesting subject and we now have years of the LL strain being stocked in NR waters, and can look over what the effort brought to the Wisconsin and Illinois lakes stocked with that strain. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | the discussion around genes and stocking is always interesting.... so the dnr gets eggs from lakes that the fish never (or very rarely) hit 50" but somehow think the offspring are magically going to grow past 50? Have had many email discussions with the DNR here in Madison about the fish they stock. They flat out told me their job is not to create 50 inchers, so they honestly didn't care if the fish they stock even have the potential to grow past 50, he even more or less stated he knows that they won't (with much regularity)... and said it is their job to create a healthy fishery, where the fish can live the longest (more bang for the buck) which is why they think switching to leechers doesn't make sense and won't happen, at least the DNR won't... it's sort of like multiple generations of 5' tall chinese families...will their offspring hit 6'??? 
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | BNelson - 7/20/2018 10:03 AM
the discussion around genes and stocking is always interesting.... so the dnr gets eggs from lakes that the fish never (or very rarely ) hit 50" but somehow think the offspring are magically going to grow past 50? Have had many email discussions with the DNR here in Madison about the fish they stock. They flat out told me their job is not to create 50 inchers, so they honestly didn't care if the fish they stock even have the potential to grow past 50, he even more or less stated he knows that they won't (with much regularity )... and said it is their job to create a healthy fishery, where the fish can live the longest (more bang for the buck ) which is why they think switching to leechers doesn't make sense and won't happen, at least the DNR won't... it's sort of like multiple generations of 5' tall chinese families...will their offspring hit 6'???
The genetics from any one system are a portion of the equation. Fish can be stocked from a lake where 50s are seen often into another system and the results can be far less than hoped for due to water chemistry, prey available, and more.
Then there's the $$ aspect. Most arguments surround this issue, plain and simple.
I agree that the DNR is not responsible to create 50" plus opportunities everywhere muskies are stocked, it simply isn't possible. Where it IS possible, very costly management strategies may generate big fish, and the costs and benefits of managing a system for trophy potential may resonate well with our community, but not so well with many other muskie anglers... or the available budget.
The entire premise of the decade plus stocking moratorium was to see if potential trophy waters with NR, where big fish potential exists due to environment and recent history proved muskies grew to trophy size, would be able to sustain themselves with no stocking. From what I have seen, the majority of those lakes suffered pretty badly as the stocked fish phased through with little or no NR and the resident population dropped back to their original very very low density. Size structure on Pelican neither improved or declined, but numbers took a hell of a hit. All that happened was there were way fewer muskies and as a result way fewer trophy muskies.
One can't cherry pick a couple items in the overall picture and make assumptions that giant muskies will develop as a result of doing those couple things, or that those things are even possible with the system in place now. To say the issue is complicated is an understatement. Look at MN, the politics and costs, and what has happened to the lakes where muskies were introduced and grew to trophy size. Wasn't and isn't easy there, either.
The general conclusions drawn from the 'it's the fish' debate generated by Dr. Sloss's studies still stand as policy, and he's pretty good at what he does. I can see why the DNR won't buy leechers, that also isn't a simple subject to solve due to cost because of VHS and other fish disease restrictions and more. The jury is somewhat still out on what will happen with the existing stocked leechers in NR water. I'd love to see a surprise total NR success there.
Larry? |
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Somewhere in my mess of files is the paper I referenced above, but am unable to locate it without further search. It is a paper done by one of Dr. Sloss' students (first paper printed during the genetic study I believe). Will did some more...
ALERT: Found it! Of course in the last place I looked. It is "A Thesis" by Brandon T. Spude, Wisconsin Cooperative Fishery Research Unit. It is titled "CONTEMPORARY STOCK STRUCTURE OF MUSKELLUNGE POPULATIONS IN NORTHERN WISCONSIN".
Quite enlightening...
Edited by Larry Ramsell 7/21/2018 9:04 AM
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Of course. If the stocked fish do not spawn with the native fish... there would be no "mixing" going on. 
Somehow in my post... the word "potentially" and "if" was not taken into consideration.
"From a genetic perspective, this stocking appears to have resulted in the stocked fish surviving to the fishery (observed genetic anomaly in 1976 the result of an admixed sample of LCO and stocked fish) but no evidence of successful reproduction of these fish can be seen in genetic analysis of subsequent years (all post 1976 samples were consistent with 1956 and 1966 genetic signature of LCO). "
Edited by Reelwise 7/21/2018 2:36 PM
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Shocker: There is NO EVIDENCE of any hatchery stocked fish (Spooner Hatchery) having natural reproduction in the stocked waters, wherever!!
The only known reproduction found from any stocking in NW Wisconsin is the Leech Lake strain that were stocked in Wissota. There supposedly has been found hybrids of those fish with the native Chippewa River strain. So what did they do? The immediately stopped the stocking of LL fish in Wissota, even though they have NEVER found any natural reproduction of the native Chippewa River strain fish alone!!! Brilliant...
Also, according to Dr. Sloss, the Spooner Hatchery created a "hatchery strain of muskies in Bone Lake (former brood stock lake)". He immediately insisted that they no longer use Bone Lake for egg taking, which the hatchery complied with. He also told them not to use LCO, but guess what? They have again been using LCO (due to the lack of suitable number of lakes to take eggs), despite the FACT that there are two distinct populations therein. When asked if they knew which population they were getting their eggs from, they had NO CLUE!!! |
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