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| THIS IS WHY ARE COUNTRY IS IN BAD SHAPE DUE TO CHINA, I CALLED TODAY TO ORDER A FEW BAITS AND HE SAID HE'S WAITING FOR THE SHIPMENT FROM OVER SEA'S LET' TRY TO CHECK THINGS BEFORE WE BUY... IT NEEDS TO SAY MADE IN USA. |
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| First of all lets take a look at a "knock off" really is, and it is not what is being described here. I didn't see the show, so I can't speak to anymore than what I am hearing here, but the corrollation between a DCG and a Bucktail, or other swimbaits and a Bull Dawg is called competition, not Knock offs. A couple years ago I was in Freeport Bahamas and bought a "Rolex" for $100. If you set it next to my real one and stood back a foot you couldn't tell the difference, words were correct, markings were correct, that was a "knock off", it was produced with the intention of deception by giving the unparallelled illusion that it was a genuine Rolex. I will use this example only as an example, but a Super D is not a knock off of a Bull Dawg. Do they look similiar, sure, do they serve the same purpose, sure, but those things alone do not make it a knock off because the Super D's are not being marketed as Bull Dawgs, they have their own brand name, their own customer base and exist solely on their own merit. A Weagle is it's own product, just like its competitors, Jackpot, Homewrecker, Viper, sure they all share the same basic principle of a walk the dog topwater, that only makes them competitors not knock offs of each other. The same can be said about everything you see in everyday life, a Tuffy 1890 is not a knock off of a Ranger 619, or vice versa, an Okuma EVX is not a knock off of a St Croix Premier, or vice versa either. Now conceivably someone could purchase an inferior blank, matching components, and build a rod identical to a St Croix Premier. If he put on the St Croix Logos, and marketed it as a St Croix Premier it would be a knock off, but if he gave it a different name and logo, even if it is similiar, while marketing it as its own brand it would be free enterprise. The very principle that built this country.
Edited by JeffPaasch 6/25/2009 9:14 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | GREAT post, thank you. |
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| sworrall - 6/6/2009 10:00 AM
In the fishing tackle industry, it's BRAND that matters. Develop a solid product, market it to the target audience as efficiently as one can, and develop that brand.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that one. Maybe on the manufacturer's end its viewed that way, but not on my end as a consumer.
I could give two hoots what name is on the grill of my truck, my motor's clamshell or in the box my favorite crankbait comes in. What I care about is whether or not it works and holds up and is affordable. Once you show me those things, and keep it up, THEN your brand's got my attention.
I like Rapala crankbaits for walleye and Bucher stuff for muskie fishing because they just plain work. It doesn't matter to me that they're a "Rapala" or "Bucher," it matters to me that RAPALA and BUCHER lures work and catch fish and do it better and/or cheaper than the other guys.
Brand means nothing to me until its proven itself, but it needs to keep doing so. And, I think that's exactly at the heart of what we're talking about here. If your name is Mr. Mousetrap, and someone builds a better one, or at least one for a lesser price for about the same money that works just the same, or that Mr. Mousetrap is having ongoing quality issues and is cutting corners......too bad, so sad. I'm jumping ship with all the other rats. Mmmm, maybe that was a bad animal to pick in that instance.
-Eric |
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Location: Bemidji, MN | JeffPaasch - 6/25/2009 9:09 PM
First of all lets take a look at a "knock off" really is, and it is not what is being described here. I didn't see the show, so I can't speak to anymore than what I am hearing here, but the corrollation between a DCG and a Bucktail, or other swimbaits and a Bull Dawg is called competition, not Knock offs. A couple years ago I was in Freeport Bahamas and bought a "Rolex" for $100. If you set it next to my real one and stood back a foot you couldn't tell the difference, words were correct, markings were correct, that was a "knock off", it was produced with the intention of deception by giving the unparallelled illusion that it was a genuine Rolex. I will use this example only as an example, but a Super D is not a knock off of a Bull Dawg. Do they look similiar, sure, do they serve the same purpose, sure, but those things alone do not make it a knock off because the Super D's are not being marketed as Bull Dawgs, they have their own brand name, their own customer base and exist solely on their own merit. A Weagle is it's own product, just like its competitors, Jackpot, Homewrecker, Viper, sure they all share the same basic principle of a walk the dog topwater, that only makes them competitors not knock offs of each other. The same can be said about everything you see in everyday life, a Tuffy 1890 is not a knock off of a Ranger 619, or vice versa, an Okuma EVX is not a knock off of a St Croix Premier, or vice versa either. Now conceivably someone could purchase an inferior blank, matching components, and build a rod identical to a St Croix Premier. If he put on the St Croix Logos, and marketed it as a St Croix Premier it would be a knock off, but if he gave it a different name and logo, even if it is similiar, while marketing it as its own brand it would be free enterprise. The very principle that built this country.
Great post Jeff! Pretty much right on the head! |
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Location: The desert | Sheesh, way to go Jeff, now we don't get 4 pages of arguing. |
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Location: Oregon | So if you don't use the companies name on the product it is not a knock-off?
I think the USPTO (United State Patent Trade Office) would very much disagree with you and so would any patent attorney.
RM
Edited by RiverMan 6/26/2009 2:22 PM
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Location: APPLETON, WI | muskie-addict - 6/25/2009 11:02 PM
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that one. Maybe on the manufacturer's end its viewed that way, but not on my end as a consumer.
I could give two hoots what name is on the grill of my truck, my motor's clamshell or in the box my favorite crankbait comes in. What I care about is whether or not it works and holds up and is affordable. Once you show me those things, and keep it up, THEN your brand's got my attention.
-Eric
I agree with this.
I think even as consumers we're spoon-fed to look at name brand items from the time we're children. Look at things like sneakers, clothing, basic household products, etc, etc.
I think sometimes we're more interested in the label on the product than the product itself.
if it works... to heck with the label. Knock-off or not... I'm going to use the product that I feel is superior.
My two pennies. |
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | That is what a big co wants, for the avg joe to get suck into buying brand name, when they have you, they think they can sell you any kind of junk because it says a brand name. I and many used a brand name plastic bait that would fall apart after casting it for 2-3 hours. the first ones that they made 5 years ago did not, they thought they had you and could sell you junk because of there band name, so they could make more profit $$$ I now will buy from who ever can make a quality bait at a fair price. |
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Location: Smith Creek | If the added expense of a brand name is all in marketing the consumer loses. If the added expense goes to quality assurance and customer service and R&D the consumer wins. |
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Location: Oswego, IL | Get people hooked = major advertising = legal brain washing. Biggest of it is huge companys with big bank rolls =
Most "Major" companies, and I am not saying this all has to do with the fishing industry, build the product here in US to begin as smaller companies obviously, they are more hands on and frankly have more enthusiasm to have a great product. Then if it takes off, they try to figure out how to make even more money on the same product (US GREED) so what happens, find the place that can make it the cheapist to maximize proffits, great idea who wouldnt? BUT, usually that ends up another country (mainly China these days) So now you have a company who HAD hands on production, which does not anymore. Standards drop, quality drops, service drops, US employment drops, proffits RISE. You would think the lower price would be passed to consumer, lol, not in a million years. We all know how the business system works, so if anyone thinks these "Major" companies care about the consumer more than proffit, you might have a learning disability! Wonder why we have such a huge deficit? WE dont export hardly anything, but import everything. Some of which if were made here wouldnt be up to US standards, so they label them with warning labels so they can sit on our shelves. The biggest thing the US makes for its own people is mainly Pharmaceuticals, beer, and cigarettes! Pretty much anything we can be addicted to, thats scary!!
So back to the topic, I agree with Jeff said, very awsome post. Riverman as far as getting around patents all you need to do is change 5% of the original, and your free. For example a t -shirt 100% cotton, use 5% polyester 95% cotton, its yours!
Oh, forgot this is only my personal opinion(Rant).
Edited by muskiewhored 6/26/2009 11:09 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | A 'knockoff' by definition is indeed a product that is a dead copy of a product and brand, usually illegal, name and all. A 'copy' or 'imitation' isn't, necessarily.
'Brain washing' doesn't work if the product is not up to par.
Our US based consumers...you...demand the lower production prices on many products China, Viet Nam, and Mexico offer, so guess what, that's what we get.
Major Corporations are owned by the public. If you bitch about stock prices for one of those companies because your retirement portfolio took a hit, and in the same breath scream 'buy American', which by definition INCLUDES MEXICO, by the way, you are a bit of a hypocrite.
You...the stock holders...are the folks who the same Corporations REPORT TO.
A brand name product that loses it's quality long term is gone. Ask the US Auto Builders about that one, the Japanese handed their hinder to them a couple decades back and are about to do the same, but for different reasons still not all that far removed. if you don't offer what consumers want, they will buy another BRAND that does!
You, 'as a consumer' know a brand that is quality is worth buying, and will pay for it above and beyond the allure of a 'copy' that isn't up to one or both requirements. The manufacturer has to earn that brand loyalty, and believe me, the brand is very valuable when that is accomplished. If a 'copy' comes along offering high quality at a lower price, then the associated BRAND will become well known and popular.....for that. Usually, if the 'copy' brand is, after becoming somewhat well known, offered in retail stores and is very successful, the same pricing pressures the other shelf Brands have (discounts to the retailer, advertising co-op with retailer, stocking fees, the cost of acquiring bar code equipment, and more) will drive up the price to close to the original Brand's pricing. Hmmm.
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| Bondy Baits are made right here, not overseas and never will be. Jon Bondy |
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Location: Eagle River, WI | It's called capitalism. God bless America. Jeff Paasch great post. I buy things that work. I don't care if it says chevy, pepsi, or sony on the side. If it works I use it, if it doesn't I won't buy it again. End of story. |
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Location: Bemidji, MN | so true ^^ |
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| that's why co are trowing millions of dollars because they want to make sure you will remember their name,most human are easy to brainwash.it can be junk but if they spend all that money on tv,radio,internet that will make you think they sell quality even if it's not the case.for example mc donalds are almost everywhere in the world,but is that a great restaurants??or is that a restaurant that deserve to be so widely represented?
concerning clothes imho there is a tons of better brands than nike,but most of their clients buy that because they think they have a superior product and they also like the public image related to the product.that's why you can get a better product for less money but you will stick with nike
i don't like it but i think musky lures market must be like it |
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| sworrall - 6/26/2009 5:42 PM
Our US based consumers...you...demand the lower production prices on many products China, Viet Nam, and Mexico offer, so guess what, that's what we get.
Major Corporations are owned by the public. If you good guy about stock prices for one of those companies because your retirement portfolio took a hit, and in the same breath scream 'buy American', which by definition INCLUDES MEXICO, by the way, you are a bit of a hypocrite.
You...the stock holders...are the folks who the same Corporations REPORT TO.
Spot on! |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | there is only 1 true Twizzler ... the rest are just cheap imitations |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Ill step into this discussion softly. As a Manufacturer of Muskie lures I can tell you that things were very different before Bill Cinton, Nafta, G.A.T.T. and rampant Globalism. Ross Perot said in a segment on C-SPAN many years ago that While the United States was watching Bill and Monica Our PATENT rights were being transferred to the World Trade organization. What exactly did this move by our congress do? What it did was basically end the Governments involvement in policing International patent infringements. In other words now anyone can copy a product overseas and sell it back here under a different name. Horrible legislation which has crushed innovation in this country. Globalism period has crushed this country. Free(unrestricted) trade opens the door to the exploitation of cheap and sometimes slave and child labor. In effect this put a communist country(China) in control of capitalism. We should only have free trade with nations that share our living standards and currency value. And to answer one of the other posters, this country did not ask for cheap products. We were sold a handful of beans by multinational corporate backed Presidents like George Bush SR. and Bill Clinton. If you want the truth go back and watch the debates between Bush, Clinton and Perot. Its all there. Perot knew that removing our trade protections and patent rights would cause a race to the bottom. It all happened exactly as he predicted.
Before Clinton patent infringements did not go unpunished . Today copying products is commonplace and rampant. I had a Glue maker tell me that to patent a product today is asking for someone to copy you because that is how they find your product in the first place. I build 13 different crank baits and some of them are what I would call similar to several long standing plastic baits. Others are completely my own design and frankly my best producing lures. So sometimes copying another is just compounding their terrible designs.
I believe that it is wrong to completely lick for lick copy another mans work and sell it as your own from music and films to ink pens and fishing lures and hundreds of thousands of other products. Unfortunately today these matters are policed by a very corrupt Globalist World trade organization . The U.S. government will only act and seize shipments of direct Knock offs of major corporations that have the millions of dollars it takes to go to Bilderburg Switzerland and fight it at the World Trade org. Small companies have no defense against being ripped off by others. So why would anyone patent anything today? You do all the leg work, pay thousands to develop your product and someone comes along and sends it to china, copies it , changes the name and he is out selling you because his product is cheaper? Im sorry but its wrong, should be illegal and should be enforced by the United States Government.
Variations off of another theme have never been an issue with patent infringements. All the way back to the first patents. Call them improvements, variations, similar, etc. If you take a design and change it you are not infringing on a patent or copyright. My beef is with exact copies. The Chinese knockoffs of everything have to go. In my opinion. Mike |
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| Mr Musky - 6/2/2009 10:38 PM
How many of the MuskieFirst people know the bulldawg was invented back in 1994!!!! And it took 15 years or so to really come to market!! The Big Joe was invented around the same time/market so they really are two of the very first plastic swimbaits ever of their kind.
I agree Mike should have been focusing on his sponsers bait while promoting it and not even mentioning other people that make baits similar. Bad Advertising in my book!
Mr Musky
They may be the first mass produced plastic swimbaits to reach the larger market. But guys were pouring their own versions of those back in the 70's. The whole knock off idea is pretty silly in my opinion. The lures we think of as "original" are likely knock offs of something our grandfathers were making in the 1950's. |
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| I have always enjoyed watching Keyes Outdoors, but has said before, you should definitely not bash the competition. Sooner than you know it, the close musky fishing community would turn into a mud-slinging market, like most others. Compete with your competitors on innovation and product differentiation. Not bashing products of others.
I think of Keyes referred to the other lures as a "spin off of x," it would have been better. Spin-off sounds like a different version, or even a slight improvement to me, where as knock-off, just sounds like a stolen piece of foreign-made garbage. |
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Location: oswego, il | good thing those original folks at mr twister have thick skin! |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | I personally LIKE that people are making "knock-offs" and trying to re-invent the wheel in ways that are appealing to customers. Why? It increases competition, makes builders/manufacturers create better product and sell at a price point that is competitive. I can tell you at least 4 or 5 major muskie lure marketers that have lapsed into complacency (sp?) in their products lines (and in some cases have seen quality plummet) after seeing success, but then re-dedicated their efforts towards building better and more appealing products when faced with "knock-off" competition.
It's good for all of us. Just makes making money selling lures tougher for those making them. Sorry, not going to feel bad for them. We live in a (mostly) free market economy and this DOES happen in all walks of the economy here in the United States. |
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| what co are you talking about? |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | bladeno20 - 6/18/2013 10:40 AM
what co are you talking about?
Really don't feel like ripping on companies and start a whole new debate! |
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| From what I've heard, all bull dawgs are made in the US. |
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