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Posts: 50
Location: Hobart, Indiana | I was wondering what I am looking for when I fish open water. I am really confused. So I just drive my boat around bombing the depths? Not used to that!! I usually fish drop-offs, points, weeds, rock piles, schools of baitfish. WHAT AM I NOT UNDERSTANDING!?! I need a lil help. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Here's a thread to get you started and keep you occupied for a bit. Lots of info out there on the subject really, but you also need to filter out some of the crap.
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=74...
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Posts: 50
Location: Hobart, Indiana | THANK YOU Cisco Kid. Thats what I was looking for. |
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Posts: 682
Location: Sycamore, IL | Check out Tom Gelb's new book as well...Lot's of info on how he has approached "open water". |
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Posts: 4
| When you guys are out fishing over 20' to 40' deep of water and graph suspended bait fish Cisco or Whitefish how can you tell which type of bait fish it is? The lake I fish has both. I would think scattered bait fish 20' or shallower is whitefish and tightly schooled bait fish 30' or deeper Cisco but I am guessing. How can you tell? |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Whitefish where I fish are usually very, very deep and loosely schooled. Ciscos are most often found tightly schooled and not as deep as the whitefish. In other words the whitefish will mark as single fish, and the ciscos as big blobs.
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Posts: 1220
| I've been spending my nights in front of the fire this winter wtih both Tom Gelb's book (mentioned above) and Jim Saric's new book too. I think it would be impossible to overrate the value contained in these two books. In fact, I am treating them more like "text books" than any sort of light reading for entertainment purposes. I fish as often as most guys who post on the "boards," but am faced with just how little I know, reading what these guys know. The good news is that getting rid of what "I thought I knew," makes more room up there for what I now can learn. |
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Posts: 323
Location: Waukee, IA | Cave run....how fast are you usually trolling the D10's and also, how do you attach your 4 oz. weight...if you don't mind sharing....  |
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Posts: 8781
| It's something I've always wanted to try. But it always seemed like a "needle in a haystack" sort of endeavor. We all fish "traditional" structure, because fish move up on it to feed. Sometimes they suspend off that structure, and are still relating to it even though they aren't right up on it. That makes sense.
But finding them in open water? Ummm..
The only thing that makes any sense to me is that when muskies aren't on a piece of structure, or relating to it in anyway, they're probably somewhere in between the spots they like to inhabit. I know the same fish use the same areas, because we've seen them in the same places for days. Spots with the "right stuff" will hold fish again and again.
But how does one target open water? In the absence of bait and discernable structure, is it just a matter of picking the likely travel routes between the areas that do (or should) hold fish? To me that makes sense - they are predators. They are animals. Just like any other animal, they have a range, and they travel here and there for food and to rest and to digest. The only difference is that they don't leave tracks or scat or any evidence of the places where they have been. Am I way off in my thinking here? |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | EA read that link to the "Bombing...Depths" thread again if you haven't as if I remember correctly it pretty well covers the how/where questions. Well it does if you keep an open mind.
What most struggle with when it comes to fishing suspended is the thought of the fish being out in no-mans land when all they have worried about up until that point is finding them on structure. What if I were to tell you most fish spend most of their time "out there" where most people don't target? I can't prove that is a true statement anymore then someone can prove they are on structure most of the time. Change how you think, and you will change how youhandle the situtatuion. I approach it with the thought that much of their time is spent deep and suspended, and it is only under special circumstances that they head shallow...for short (relative) periods of time.
Intelligently prediciting travle routes is one method of trying to find them suspended.
Also read my signature. It is the same thing I was mentioning in the linked thread that I was getting lambasted for. However my signature was said by Mr. Gelb. Sometimes there just is nothing that will lead you to where they are yet they will be there. |
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Posts: 1036
| Sending a camera down into the fish schools you see on the graph will tell you exactly what they are.
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Posts: 373
Location: Maine Township, MN | I have seen a difference between open water walleyes and weed walleyes. They have distinctly different coloring even on the same bodys of water. Different feeding patterns too. Are open water muskies vs. weed muskies kind of the same deal? I.E. an open water fish's "range" is open water and a cover oriented fish's range is the cover? Do they ever flip-flop? |
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Posts: 1220
| Obvioulsy, this is an area where you have to "pay to play," but if ever there was a place for side-imaging, this is it! Imagine the difference of cruising open water looking for pods of baitfish with a 7-10 cone of ordinary sonar versus doing it with a over a hundred feet on either side of your boat in view. Yes, you have slow way down to use it effectively, but this can make a huge difference in the vast open spaces that seem to be the "new frontier" of musky hunting. |
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Posts: 4
| CiscoKid - 1/28/2013 6:39 AM
Whitefish where I fish are usually very, very deep and loosely schooled. Ciscos are most often found tightly schooled and not as deep as the whitefish. In other words the whitefish will mark as single fish, and the ciscos as big blobs.
CiscoKid thank you for your input!
I agree about the Whitefish being more of a loose schooled fish and Cisco being a tight schooled fish but what confuses me is if I am rite Cisco prefer water temps at 45 degrees and Whitefish prefer like 54 degrees or is it the other way around? If I am rite about what each fish preferred temp is White fish would be the ones that I see scattered in shallower water rite?
This has been driving me crazy graphing these two different types of bait fish and not knowing for sure which school is Whitefish! |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Dan - 1/28/2013 6:31 PM
CiscoKid thank you for your input!
I agree about the Whitefish being more of a loose schooled fish and Cisco being a tight schooled fish but what confuses me is if I am rite Cisco prefer water temps at 45 degrees and Whitefish prefer like 54 degrees or is it the other way around? If I am rite about what each fish preferred temp is White fish would be the ones that I see scattered in shallower water rite?
This has been driving me crazy graphing these two different types of bait fish and not knowing for sure which school is Whitefish!
I would say it is the other way around. Particular lakes I fish I very, very seldom see the whitefish higher than 30' down. Meanwhile ciscos will frequent the surface.
Edited by CiscoKid 1/29/2013 6:29 AM
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Dan,
I've never sent a camera down to be sure either but I also would guess that whitefish are deeper and maybe more likely hugging the bottom and ciscos will ball up somewhere between bottom and the surface. You'll often see ciscos jumping or flipping on the surface on calm nights early in the summer.
More than anything, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Whatever you're seeing is likely musky food and may deserve some fishing attention. If you're seeing a few marks 60-80 feet down, that's too deep to target and I wouldn't waste much time on that. If you see marks or clouds within the top 30 feet or so I'd investigate. Sometimes you'll see ciscos flipping on the surface in the evening where you marked them 40 feet down earlier in the day. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | curleytail - 1/29/2013 7:21 AM
More than anything, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Whatever you're seeing is likely musky food and may deserve some fishing attention. If you're seeing a few marks 60-80 feet down, that's too deep to target and I wouldn't waste much time on that. If you see marks or clouds within the top 30 feet or so I'd investigate. Sometimes you'll see ciscos flipping on the surface in the evening where you marked them 40 feet down earlier in the day.
I agree with this 100%! Good point Tucker! |
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Posts: 9
| The best thing to do is to just put in some time out in the open water. Spend a reasonable amount of time at it and I am guessing you will be surprised what you see and catch. It is easier to wrap your head around it once you have caught a few fish out there.
If I were you I would read everything that CiscoKid writes about fishing open water. He knows what he is talking about. Tony Rizzo has been fishing deep water in Northern Wisconsin and writing about it for something like 40 years. If you can find copies of his books "The Summer Muskie" or "Secrets of a Muskie Guide II", he discusses open water fishing a lot. No question that he has caught more big muskies on Wisconsin inland lakes than anyone. I fish some of the same lakes he does, and he is always over deep water. Tom Gelb's book is also a good resource on the subject.
Don't over think it. Don't worry about strategy. Just go do it. It will make you smile. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | oldschool - 1/30/2013 8:27 PM
If I were you I would read everything that CiscoKid writes about fishing open water. He knows what he is talking about.
does he have a book out? where can i get it?? |
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Posts: 9
| Tom Gelb's book covers open water fishing.
Tony Rizzo's "Secrets of a Muskie Guide II" & "The Summer Muskie"
Both Rizzo and Gelb spend most all of their time over open water.
Dick Pearson covers open water fishing in his book.
I don't think CiscoKid has a book, but he seems to pop up and help anytime anyone asks questions about open water fishing. He obviously knows what he is talking about. |
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