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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | had a fuel line hose failure (brittle and cracked) ... quick and easy replacement. the guy at the store where i got new hose told me it's a result of ethanol hardening it. first i'd heard of that.
make sense as an explanation? |
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Posts: 8788
| It's true in the automotive world. I would presume marine applications aren't much different. There are companies out there manufacturing ethanol resistant fuel line if you want to go that route. Instead of the standard 30R7 stamp you see on standard (automotive) 3/8 braided line, the new # is ISO 8649. Marine stuff might be different???
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Posts: 669
Location: Twin Cities, MN | Yes, I have seen this discussed a few times on BBC. What kind of line did you have on. I think Mercury makes one that is a Gray line w/blue print that helps with the corn fuel issues going forward to my memory.
Do you still have the old line, if you cut it open, see it it has deposits inside the line. |
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Posts: 333
Location: menasha wi 54952 | Yes what the guy told you is true. Most of the time the valve in your bulb will fail first. In either case it is a good idea to replace the entire line at the same time. Ethanol is bad news. |
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| Was it the outside or inside of the hose? I've seen ethanol degrade the integrity inside the line a few times, leading to it collapsing when the motor's running.
New boats/motors are coming with ethanol-ready parts, but an older boat or motor is pretty susceptible to it. Lots of guys repowering 690s are running into the issue - the motor is new and does fine but the boat's hoses aren't. Probably worth switching to new hoses as a preventive measure.
Or, non-ethanol premium is worth the couple extra bucks a year and then you never have to worry about it.
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Posts: 173
Location: Green Bay, Titletown, WI | I won't run ethanol in anything but my truck. My truck is set up for it, FlexFuel. But with the motor cycle, boat, and lawn mower, I only run non-ethanol. The only problem is the only non-ethanol gas commonly sold is premium. But it's worth it. Runs cooler, get better economy, and it wont deteriorate your fuel line. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | mine was hard and brittle and when i primed my bulb squirted through where it had cracked. interesting that the fuel line to my kicker (not used much) was worse than what goes to the main motor and used more often. the failure was right near the hose-clamp going into the motor-side fitting. |
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Posts: 267
| I had a fuel pick up line in the tank fail due to ethanol. Literally disintegrated into little rubber balls. |
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
Where was the fuel leak...under the cowling or open to the elements?
I will not disagree that ethanol when it sits in a line can dry out the line, but I would bet my entire life's savings ($5) that UV rays would do more damage to your fuel lines that are exposed to the elements than the ethanol in the fuel. Case in point: Check your tires on your trailer after a few years of being out in the elements...dry rot comes in and the rubber loses its elasticity and cracks. No ethanol in your tires, but the same thing happens.
Now...if it is under the hood where the line broke, that is another story.. I would ask how old the motor is. If it is older than say an early 90's vintage, the lines are not alcohol resistant, thus are not made to handle the alcohol....and will deteriorate the line from inside out. A crack all the way through would take quite a while to deteriorate the entire line's thickness to the exterior, so if this is the case, the lines just need to be replaced with alcohol resistant lines and you are good to go for probably the remaining life of the motor. And as stated in an earlier post, the line basically disintegrates into little balls...it won't crack. Gum a a fuel system if it goes unchecked and that is not good either.
I don't buy their ethanol argument...I'd bet more on exposure to elements hardening the lines and finally causing them to split. THAT is more common than many people think. As soon as your lines are not very pliable anymore, it is time to replace them.
Don't believe me? Take some remaining hose after you have used what you needed and put it outside for a few months...let it go through a winter and summer without ANY fuel in it... It'll be hard and brittle as well...
Because many people store their boats inside or covered, the UV deterioration takes longer to occur.
Steve
Edited by VMS 10/25/2012 10:19 AM
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| I have a small fishing boat that does not get used a lot but two years ago, I developed cracks and leaks in the line and bulb. Figured it was old and the UV had done it in. Went to a big box store and bought a new line and bulb. Within two months the line and bulb were cracked and leaking. Went to boat dealer, bought a bulb and line designed to handle ethanol and have had not problem since. I used to buy ethanol free gas but the store in Rhinelander where I bought it closed. |
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Posts: 134
| Northof8- The Marathron gas station next to Culvers on Hwy 8 carries non-ethanol gas. |
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| Thanks for the info. I will check out next spring! |
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Posts: 5874
| Older boats have fuel line that was not designed to handle ethanol in the fuel. I'd say any boat made since early 2000's should have adequate. I remember we had ethanol blended fuel in the 4 county Milwaukee area many years before it became universal throughout the state. I had an issue with the pick up on my portable tank for my old Tuffy Rampage. As mentioned, literally disintegrated the rubber pickup hose.
I would expect a line that does not have a lot of fuel running through it(Kicker) to go before that which does(Main Motor). I'd suggest you replace all fuel line, and fuel tank gaskets.
Edited by Shep 10/31/2012 8:15 AM
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Location: 31 | I don't think it's just the hoses you have to be concerned with. If you own a boat, these two articles are worth reading In my opinion.
*****************************************************************
#1
Dangers Lurking in E10 Boat Fuel
By Randy Troutman On August 13, 2012 •
Back in 2010, the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary warned boaters about the damage that ethanol-blended gasoline can produce on boat engines. Despite this warning and many others from boating organizations, boat engine manufacturers, and boat dealers, some boat owners are still unaware how ethanol-blended gasoline hurts their boats. Although ethanol gas reduces dependence on foreign oil, supports the agricultural industry, and produces three to four percent fewer greenhouse gas emissions, it also can attract water to a fuel tank, causing a sludge that can destroy an engine. Why is this problem pertinent to boats, but not to automobiles?
Ethanol Gas and Your Boat
The difference between using ethanol-blended gas in cars and boats is that individuals often use their cars more than they use their boats. This lack of use is hitting particularly hard in drought-stricken areas this year, according to some boat dealers. Depending upon the size of the boat motor, the damage caused by failing to use a boat that runs on ethanol-based fuel can tally into the thousands of dollars if that boat is not properly maintained.
Additionally, boat engines contain vented fuel systems that allow moisture to enter fuel tanks. When the alcohol in the E10 (10% alcohol) gas blend sits idle in an engine, it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere — in fact, it can absorb up to 50 times more water than non-alcohol gas. After sitting for a time (90 days or even less), the water and ethanol mix separates from the gas and sinks in the fuel tank (phase separation) to create a milky-brown substance that can cause boat engines to misfire.
Misfiring is just the first sign that something might be wrong. According to Fuel Testers, “Phase separation occurs in E10 gas, when only 0.5% water or 3.8 teaspoons water per gallon of fuel is absorbed.” Even if you’ve had your boat out every day this summer instead of laid up in dock, E10 gas can dissolve up to 6,000-7,000 parts per million (PPM) water at 70 degrees Fahrenheit. When this blend cools, the water and some of the ethanol become insoluble, creating problems from the get-go.
Since ethanol is a solvent, it also can soften rubber hose interiors, breaking pieces off that can clog the fuel system. If you own a boat with a fiberglass fuel tank, the ethanol can dissolve the resin that holds the material together. That material, also, can head into the engine. It can also dissolve plastic, rubber, and aluminum parts, dry out hoses, remove lubrication, and shrink or swell engine seals.
The best thing for you to do is to be aware of your manufacturer’s warranty for your boat and be aware of where you’re gassing up and what gas you’re using for your boat. If that warranty forbids using all ethanol and “gasahol” fuel and you use it anyway, you may end up being responsible for damages. Once E10 begins the phase separation in a tank, there’s little you can do to repair that damage, despite claims that you can repair phase separated fuel.
What Can You Do?
Even winterizing a boat that uses E10 can prove a nightmare for boat owners, because it’s rare that you can completely empty a fuel tank. If you can siphon the tank or pump it dry from the fuel line, you might get professionals to buff the interior of the tank to remove any loose particles that could clog the engine. Additionally, be aware that water-separating fuel filters can become clogged when using regular gas, let alone E10, so carry a few with you when you’re out on your boat.
Some states mandate E10 fuel, so there’s not much choice in the matter when it comes to fueling your boat in those states other than to purchase a boat motor that tolerates alcohol-based fuel. Other states still offer ethanol-free gasoline, which is a preferred choice for many boaters. Since hot weather accelerates deterioration, it’s not surprising to find marinas in the south that still carry the option for non-alcohol gasoline.
While some boat engines are compatible with E10 fuel, some manufacturers still warn about outboard fuel systems that can sustain damage from that fuel choice. The problems that arise usually come at the fuel station, when boat owners are distracted or tanks are not labeled correctly — in fact, the Marine Retailers Association of the Americas (MRAA) warns that many consumers fuel their boats when they fuel their cars, and confusion over mislabeling gas or lack of consumer awareness may end in destroying a boat engine.
The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has approved E15 (15% ethanol) for use for newer trucks and cars, but that use has been delayed because of multiple lawsuits from the marine, auto, and small engine industries, including MRAA. We don’t know of any boat engine that’s equipped to handle E15, but we also know that the EPA has not approved the sale of E15 at marinas.
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#2
Ethanol fuel can ruin boat motors
July 2012.
By BRENNAN LEATHERS
It’s hard to imagine someone voluntarily using fuel that can damage a motor, but that’s what many boat owners are forced to do when they fill up their boat.
Due to environmental regulations adopted by the federal government, many gas stations and marina fueling stations are now using a fuel blend called E-10 that mixes 10 percent ethanol with 90 percent unleaded gasoline.
All outboard boat motors, as well as some inboard/outboard boat motors, are not compatible with the E-10 gas. Ethanol causes so many problems with outboard boat motors, that there are now a whole range of products designed to alleviate them, said Kyle Odom, co-owner of Bainbridge Marine.
“Honestly, fixing carburetors and fuel lines that have been damaged by ethanol keeps us in business,” Odom said. “We display some fuel lines that have been corroded by ethanol as a warning to our customers of what it can do.”
One of the main problems is that ethanol absorbs moisture from the air and introduces moisture into the engine, Odom said. That can cause various parts of the motor to rust, including the crankshaft, rod bearings and cylinders.
The other problem, perhaps more damaging, occurs when boats are used infrequently, such as once every couple of months, Odom said. A chemical process known as “phase separation” starts happening after about 30 days of the fuel sitting still, unused. The E-10 fuel blend breaks down into water, ethanol and unleaded gasoline. After separation, the boat’s fuel pick-up line is apt to take in just the ethanol, which can stress motors and cause power-head failure, Odom said.
“Ethanol eats at the aluminum used in carburetor and causes buildup in the fuel lines,” Odom said. “It’s a white ash that looks like a calcium deposit.”
One might think that the fix-all solution would be to buy ethanol-free gas, which has started to re-appear as an alternative at some gas stations, because some cars and trucks have had problems with ethanol. However, even the ethanol-free gas can start to separate after about 120 days of non-use, which could still cause problems for a boat motor.
Some of the products that are now sold to help reduce or prevent damage by ethanol are an ethanol-proof primer bulb for fuel hoses, and new fuel hoses that are more adapted to deal with ethanol. A fuel/water separating filter grabs contaminants and separates water from ethanol-enriched fuel, ahead of onboard filters and injectors.
There are also special lubricants that clean out motor parts, and fuel stabilizers and conditioners that help prevent oxidation and phase separation in ethanol fuel blends.
Edited by Jerry Newman 11/7/2012 9:13 AM
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Posts: 332
Location: Neenah, WI | Sled,
My 690 fuel line failed this year they replaced it from the tank to the motor to the tune of $400.00 . They replaced it with the new lines that are meant to withstand degradation from ethanol fuel. My old hoses the actual media degraded and then pieces passed through and ruined the primer bulb.
From here on out nothing but premium for me.
SAINT
Edited by saint1 11/7/2012 1:17 PM
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Location: 31 | saint1 - 11/7/2012 1:16 PM
From here on out nothing but premium for me.
SAINT
Same here, I just had all of the filters replaced on my Yamaha four strokes (5 total). The intake had to be removed to replace the one inside the VST tank in my big motor (total for everything $600... ouch) My mechanic said it was a good move though because that one in the VST tank was dirty and would have eventually trashed the gas pump and left me stranded and with a large repair bill.
Also, if you're running your boat enough in the summer/fall you can get by using ethanol gas, just make sure your last tank of the year is ethanol free or drain the tank and lines as completely as you can. It's also vitally important if you can't (or won't) drain the ethanol to treat and top off your tank before storage to minimize condensation.
Sadly it's that time of year again for most of us!
Edited by Jerry Newman 11/19/2012 10:01 AM
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Posts: 138
Location: Aurora IL | puregas.org lists stations by state, you can add others you find |
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Posts: 5874
| Non-metal fuels tanks won't condense not matter full or not.
All newer outboard motors and boat fuel systems are made for ethanol formulated gas. I ran E10 in my 3 Opti's since 2002, and never had an issue. Always used Merc KwikClean year round, and Stabil in the fall before putting it up for 3 months. |
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Posts: 833
| My 2010 ETEC also runs on 10% Ethanol no problem. States clearly in the user manual that motor was designed to handle that fuel. I have had no issues to date.
Edited by Brad P 11/19/2012 12:57 PM
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Location: 31 | Brad P - 11/19/2012 12:55 PM
My 2010 ETEC also runs on 10% Ethanol no problem. States clearly in the user manual that motor was designed to handle that fuel. I have had no issues to date.
Guys, I'm no chemical engineer... and I've never had a problem that I can pin on Ethanol like Sled either. However, I have lost three power heads since the mid-1980s though... two of which coincidentally happened while I was being forced to use questionable resort gas on LOTW. After the second power head failed, I started adding a little extra oil (when I had a 2 stroke) and octane boost to the tank besides the injection oil without a problem... and have been running scared ever since.
So, here I'm just sharing/repeating what I researched, and maybe this Odem guy knows what is talking about... and maybe he doesn't. Considering how infrequently boats can be used and that the tank has an open vent to the outside... well, most of this stuff makes sense to me anyway. But you can take it for what it's worth... makes no difference to me.
Odem quote from above:
"The other problem, perhaps more damaging, occurs when boats are used infrequently, such as once every couple of months, Odom said. A chemical process known as “phase separation” starts happening after about 30 days of the fuel sitting still, unused. The E-10 fuel blend breaks down into water, ethanol and unleaded gasoline. After separation, the boat’s fuel pick-up line is apt to take in just the ethanol, which can stress motors and cause power-head failure"
Edited by Jerry Newman 11/19/2012 1:52 PM
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Location: 31 | Kind of an interesting article... the test on the fleet of trucks was "interesting"... and pretty much conclusive. Forget about condensation for a second and just assume that the gasoline you put in you tank contains trace amounts of water... (then read this quote from the Fuel School.
"Phase Separation describes what happens to gasoline containing Ethanol when water is present. When gasoline containing even small amounts of Ethanol comes in contact with water, either liquid or in the form of humidity; the Ethanol will pick-up and absorb some or all of that water. When it reaches a saturation point the Ethanol and water will Phase Separate, actually coming out of solution and forming two or three distinct layers in the tank."
"Phase Separation can happen in an underground or an above ground storage tank, a vehicle tank, a boat tank, in any type of equipment tank, and even in the gas can in your garage. When this happens, you can have serious and even catastrophic engine problems, without warning. When this Phase Separation occurs you will have an upper layer of gasoline with a milky layer of Ethanol and Water below it, and then in many cases a third layer of just water at the bottom."
*****************Entire article**************************
Monday, February 2, 2009
Phase Separation in Ethanol Blended Gasoline
Phase Separation in Ethanol Blended Gasoline’s
Phase Separation in Gasoline’s containing Ethanol is now a major problem for all users of gasoline.
Whether you use gasoline as a fleet operator or for your family car, classic car, boat, personal water-craft, motorcycle, snowmobile, ATV, RV, lawnmower, weed-whacker, generator, or any of the thousands of other types of equipment that use gasoline engines; you are being affected by Ethanol in your fuel.
Phase Separation describes what happens to gasoline containing Ethanol when water is present. When gasoline containing even small amounts of Ethanol comes in contact with water, either liquid or in the form of humidity; the Ethanol will pick-up and absorb some or all of that water. When it reaches a saturation point the Ethanol and water will Phase Separate, actually coming out of solution and forming two or three distinct layers in the tank.
Phase Separation is also temperature dependent. For example, E-10 can hold approximately .05% water at 60°F. To better understand the amount of water that we are talking about, picture 1 gallon of E-10 at 60°F. This gallon will hold approximately 3.8 teaspoons of water. However if the temperature drops to 20°F it can only hold about 2.8 teaspoons of water.
We recently were called to consult for a fleet where a fairly large number of vehicles were being regularly fueled from a single tank and about one-half the vehicles were stored inside and the other half were stored outside. After a night with a 30°F+ temperature drop, several of the vehicles stored outside developed problems with significant amounts of water found in the vehicle tanks. After checking the storage tank and finding no measurable water, they looked for other possible causes including sabotage. After looking at many possible causes this customer consulted with us and we were able to describe the Phase Separation through temperature change scenario and determine that this was the most likely cause of the problems.
Phase Separation can happen in an underground or an aboveground storage tank, a vehicle tank, a boat tank, in any type of equipment tank, and even in the gas can in your garage.
When this happens, you can have serious and even catastrophic engine problems, without warning.
When this Phase Separation occurs you will have an upper layer of gasoline with a milky layer of Ethanol and Water below it, and then in many cases a third layer of just water at the bottom.
If this happens and you try to start the engine you can have one or more of the following problems. If your fuel tank pick-up tube is in the water layer, most likely the engine will fail to start. If the engine is running and suddenly draws water you can have damage from thermal shock or hydro-lock. If the pick-up tube draws the Ethanol-Water mixture or just Ethanol you can have problems where the engine will operate in an extreme lean condition, which can cause significant damage or even catastrophic failure. If the pick-up tube draws the gasoline, it will operate very poorly due to lower octane that is the result of no longer having the Ethanol in the fuel.
Gasoline containing Ethanol provides further challenges and dangers for marine operators (Boaters) and other users of seasonal equipment such as motorcycles, personal water-craft, snowmobiles, ATV’s, RV’s, yard maintenance, generators, and other equipment.
Ethanol is a strong, aggressive solvent and will cause problems with rubber hoses, o-rings, seals, and gaskets. These problems are worse during extended storage when significant deterioration will take place. Hoses will delaminate, o-rings will soften and break down, and fuel system components made from certain types of plastics will either soften or become hard and brittle, eventually failing. Fuel system components made from brass, copper, and aluminum will oxidize to the point of failure.
Operators of boats with fiberglass fuel tanks built before 1993 can have actual structural failure as Ethanol will break down and pick-up some of the materials the tanks are made from. This causes two separate but equally serious problems. First the tanks can become so weakened that they can fail. In cases where the tank is part of the boats structure we have seen tanks become so weak that it is possible to collapse part of the deck just by walking on it. The second problem is that this material when dissolved from the fiberglass tank is carried through the fuel system and can cause damage to carburetors and fuel injectors and can actually get into the combustion chambers causing damaging deposits on valves and pistons. This material can be nearly impossible to remove without destroying the affected parts.
Two-Cycle engines have a special problem with Ethanol blended fuels. Two-Cycle engines function because the oil added to the fuel bonds to the engines metal surfaces and provides barrier lubrication to all the parts requiring lubrication. When Ethanol is added to the gasoline, it displaces the oil and forms a primary bond with the metal surfaces. This bond provides virtually no lubrication and can result in significantly increased wear and even catastrophic failure in a very short amount of time.
Until now the only preventative measures available to tank operators and end users was to try and make sure there was no water in the tank and that vents allowed a minimum amount of airborne water (humidity) into the tank.
Gasohol, E-10, E-20, and E-85 are the terms that refer to gasoline containing Ethanol. For example the most common fuel available today is E10. E-10 is 10% Ethanol and 90% gasoline, while E-85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% gasoline (Note: E-85 is actually E-70 in the winter in cold weather (Northern Tier) states.
Ethanol has less energy (as measure in Btu’s – British Thermal Units) per gallon than does regular unleaded gasoline. This means that the more Ethanol found in fuel the worse your fuel economy will be. You use more gallons of fuel containing Ethanol to go fewer miles.
This poor fuel economy is made worse by other EPA and State requirements for fuels to change seasonally. Until very recently we have used what is known as “Conventional” gasoline (CVG) in the winter and “Reformulated gasoline (RFG) in the summer. The theory is that the lower volatility of RFG will reduce the formation of green house gases. However RFG has lower Btu’s per gallon. RFG together with Ethanol results in a significant mileage penalty. My own vehicle drops about 2 miles per gallon or about 9% when using RFG with Ethanol.
For many years the refining industry used a chemical called MTBE to meet the oxygenate requirements set forth by the EPA. Generally refiners used 15% MTBE and 85% gasoline. However MTBE has now been virtually eliminated in the US due to its carcinogenic compounds and the huge potential problems caused by its pollution of as much as 75% of the ground water in the US and Canada.
This has left Ethanol as the primary additive to meet Federal and State oxygenate mandates.
Further the federal government currently subsidizes Ethanol with a $.51 per gallon tax credit that goes to the refiners or blenders. With E-10 this provides those refiners and or blenders with a $.051 per gallon subsidy on every gallon of gasoline that they sell.
In many cases we have seen gasoline containing more than 10% Ethanol. We test regularly and have seen fuel containing 12%, 13%, and even 14% Ethanol while the pump shows only 10%. Increasing the amount of Ethanol increases the refiner/blenders subsidy and profit while further lowering your fuel economy.
One more concern with Ethanol and RFG or Ethanol and CVG is that Ethanol when mixed with water; they readily form Gums in the fuel system much quicker than gasoline without Ethanol. These Gums coat fuel system components including filters, carburetors, injectors, throttle plates; and will then form varnish and carbon deposits in the intake, on valves, and in the combustion chamber. These deposits can coat sensors and plug catalytic converters.
The good news is that we now have products available to prevent and control Phase Separation and that we can dramatically reduce or eliminate most of the problems caused by Ethanol in Gasoline.
Because of all the problems with Ethanol Blended gasoline’s we will list some specific suggestions and recommendations on how to deal with and resolve many of these problems.
When Phase Separation occurs in fuel tank on a vehicle, boat or other piece of equipment, the tank should be completely drained. The tank should be refilled with good fuel and the fuel line purged prior to restarting the engine.
For Seasonal vehicles and equipment, e.g. boats, personal water-craft, motorcycles, classic cars, ATV’s, RV’s, lawn and garden equipment, gasoline powered generators, and so on, we recommend that you try to use conventional gasoline without Ethanol whenever possible and particularly prior to storage.
In ALL Two-Cycle gasoline engines where there is any possibility that you are using gasoline containing Ethanol we strongly suggest using a full synthetic two-cycle oil in the gas.
In bulk storage tanks where you believe phase separation may have occurred or where you are concerned it may happen. We suggest the use of a modified water finding paste such is made by the Kolor Kut Company. This paste starts out brown, if you dip the tank with a measuring stick with the paste and it turns yellow (even light or spotty yellow), you have significant water dissolved in the fuel, if the paste turns red you have free water.
If you have fuel that has Phase Separated and you have either two or three layers you should arrange to have the tank pumped from the bottom to remove the one or two bottom layers containing the water and or the Ethanol/Water mix. (Note: you should check again with the paste before the technician leaves to be certain that all the Water and Water/Ethanol has been completely removed). You do not need to remove the gasoline. Check with water finding paste after 24 hours. If no red or yellow present then add clean fuel to the tank to working capacity.
Edited by Jerry Newman 11/19/2012 2:16 PM
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Posts: 833
| Point of difference: My tank is part of my boat and is only ever opened to get filled. I cannot "add more oil to the tank" my XD100 is in a resevoir and connected via a line to the engine. I do not know if that makes a difference, I'm not an expert. I just used to be ultra paranoid about this since I am not keen on spending $4.25/ gallon for non-oxygenated gasoline. My owners manual specifically says that the engine was designed to use ethanol gas. (not E85 mind you) It also says that older motors were not designed for it, hence the issues above. Once I read that, I slept easier. My guess is that newer motors would take into account newer formulations of gasoline. I suppose time will tell, but I'm going to trust BRP/Evinrude. So far it hasn't been a problem for me.
just for reference: I fish my boat about 60-70 trips a year, mostly on a 14,000 acre body of water, so I'm putting some hours on the motor and burning through a fair amount of gas.
Edited by Brad P 11/19/2012 3:24 PM
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Posts: 814
| Wow, never had any problems due to ethanol. 2 Lunds and one tuffy since 92. Never had a hard or a cracked fuel line, I have neve worried where I get fuel either, I run nothing throughout the season, just seafoam in the last tank at seasons end. |
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Location: 31 | Brad P - 11/19/2012 3:20 PM
Point of difference: My tank is part of my boat and is only ever opened to get filled. I cannot "add more oil to the tank" my XD100 is in a resevoir and connected via a line to the engine. I do not know if that makes a difference, I'm not an expert. I just used to be ultra paranoid about this since I am not keen on spending $4.25/ gallon for non-oxygenated gasoline. My owners manual specifically says that the engine was designed to use ethanol gas. (not E85 mind you) It also says that older motors were not designed for it, hence the issues above. Once I read that, I slept easier. My guess is that newer motors would take into account newer formulations of gasoline. I suppose time will tell, but I'm going to trust BRP/Evinrude. So far it hasn't been a problem for me.
just for reference: I fish my boat about 60-70 trips a year, mostly on a 14,000 acre body of water, so I'm putting some hours on the motor and burning through a fair amount of gas.
Brad, understanding the problem is the key here and I think this phase separation is a huge concern for us this time of year (yes even for boats approved for Ethanol) . Even if you had a closed system (which you don't), there can be (and normally is) water in the gas you are pumping into your tank and when stored for the winter... phase separation is possible and that in turn could ruin your power head. Like I said, it's that last tank of gas that matters most and not so much the gas you are running threw it in the summer... especially with the amount of hours you're putting on the boat.
The reason I know you don't have a closed system is because all boats have an air vent... 100% prohibited from having a pressurized fuel system like a car. If a boat did have a pressurized fuel system, and it failed, fuel could collect in the bilge and cause a dangerous situation. Therefore, all of our boats have a fuel delivery system that has an open air vent. The air vent allows for the movement of air in and out of the tank when fueling and also for expansion of the fuel when the temperature warms up. When pressure builds on boats it is released through the tank’s vent, and it is open to moist outside air, so condensation is at least possible for some of us and filling the tank is recommended by most.
Heck, try googling ethanol/phase separation and see how many pages of independent research you come up with... I did it because I'm the guy who had to replace the three power heads. If I never had a problem I probably wouldn't worry about it too much either but running ethanol free gas the last couple of trips and then topping the tank off and treating the gas is a no brainer for me.
I'm not saying the sky is falling, just advising people to be aware of this and do a little of their own research so they can make an informed decision.
Edited by Jerry Newman 11/19/2012 11:56 PM
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Posts: 3480
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
Jerry is right on phase separation, but I think it is important that we all understand that phase separation only occurs when the fuel in question has reached it's full saturation level of water. In one gallon alone, saturation would occur when you have roughly 3.8 tsp of water at 60 degrees in the fuel and that amount drops to 2.8 in 20 degree temps ....that is not a huge amount per gallon and to be honest, I feel there would need to be an outside source that somehow introduced the water to the system. Now...consider many of our onboard tanks are in excess of 20 gallons or larger....that is a bunch of water intrusion to get in a system, which is not very likely in my humble opinion. Let's say you have a 50 gallon tank with 20 gallons of fuel in it... that would equate to just over 1-1/2 cups of water having to be in the fuel to cause phase separation to happen at 60 degrees and a little over 1 cup for 20 degrees. I just don't feel that is an amount we would see on any regular basis, given we purchase fresh fuel from a reputable establishment that gets a bunch of business before storing our rigs. I don't think any fuel establishment would stay in business with that much water in their tanks at all times.
I would say the separation is highly unlikely since the temperature change from the environment around the tank will be fairly consistent most of the time as well. The tank is not in direct sunlight...usually protected by a layer of plywood (or whatever flooring type your boat has as is the air around it) which insulates it from massive temperature changes quickly. And...as many store their boats inside, they are protected even more so from big temperature changes, or if they store the boat outside, a cover provides another layer of insulating air. So...to generate that much condensation on the inside of a tank would take massive amounts of sitting time, and specific environmental factors to happen consistently.
Also note as Shep stated, consdensation will not happen in a full tank as condensation needs to have empty space to form (it's like the condensation on the outside of a toilet tank which the exterior of the tank is open to air, which would be hotter than the water inside) condensation would not form on the inside of the tank at all...it would form on the outside if temps went up.
So...in winterizing, a full tank is a good thing, and even better in the northern states. our humidity is quite low during the winter months, which will lessen the effect of any condensation potentially forming inside the tank. The temp inside the tank would have to be significantly warmer than the outside temp around the tank, and be a big enough difference in temp and humidity level for it to occur...that is not very likely....especially in our winter months.
If you do your final fill up from a well used fuel station, you will be fine....
Some good reading, there Jerry. You made me go back and research more 
Steve
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Location: 31 | Hey Steve,
Don't look now but you're starting to sound like a math guy ;-). I agree with your post with just a couple of exceptions.
Knowing that phase separation is a possibility, and if ethanol free gas is available why not top off your last couple of tanks with some high octane ethanol free gas? Keep in mind that some people store their boats for more than just a few months too. I actually had a friend who stored his boat at my house for about a year without using it because of a new job and he got nervous about the gas... I said no problem and disconnected the hose from the motor and using only the primer bulb, completely emptied the gas from his permanent tank into several 5 gallon cans. It was an absolute piece of cake do do this...
I thought this quote from the fuel school was pretty interesting regarding how long it may take for phase separation to occur.
"We recently were called to consult for a fleet where a fairly large number of vehicles were being regularly fueled from a single tank and about one-half the vehicles were stored inside and the other half were stored outside. After a night with a 30°F+ temperature drop, several of the vehicles stored outside developed problems with significant amounts of water found in the vehicle tanks. After checking the storage tank and finding no measurable water, they looked for other possible causes including sabotage. After looking at many possible causes this customer consulted with us and we were able to describe the Phase Separation through temperature change scenario and determine that this was the most likely cause of the problems."
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