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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | Well I have been serioius considering putting a stabilizer on my Merc 115 4-stroke for a few reasons but the main thing is porpoise control. I've played with motor height, props, loading but it still rears its ugly head in certain conditions. I did not have this issue when I had my 75hp 2-stroke but I upgraded to the 115 and added an 8hp kicker. So an additional 200lbs on the back.
The boat runs and rides best at higher speeds and throttle but I hate to run hard all the time. Increased load, slower speeds, and wave action can put me into a bounce; even if I trim all the way in it wont stop it.
Really wanted to throw out my situation to get some feedback before drilling holes in my nice newer motor. I have been looking at the Cobra Marine's Edge plate. I've been thinking of ways to mount it without drilling but we will see.
Any feedback or thoughts are appreciated. Oh ya, my boat is a 2001 Tracker Targa 17WT
Thanks... |
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Posts: 68
| I put a SE Sport 300 hydrofoil on my 90 HydroStream with Rude 150xp and love it. The boat only wanted to go fast and I was having issues getting on plane at slower speeds. I noticed a nice difference getting out of the hole faster and getting on plane sooner and easier so I can cruise at lower RPMs. For me it worked and was well worth the $60.
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Posts: 68
| If you really don't want to drill holes, SE Sport has a clip you can install that is drill free, so you can then install the hydrofoil without drilling holes. Make sure it will work first. It will double the price of adding a Hydrofoil and there are some mixed reviews on it.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/SE-Sport8482-Sport-Clip/701419.uts?N...
Edited by Kleck 8/28/2012 6:28 PM
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I have used the Dole Fin on two different boats with good results. Drilled holes can be readily filled but will probably not be necessary because you will like the results |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | I put a stainless 'Edge' on my underpowered Ranger 690 Tiller(90 HP Yamaha 4 stroke). I had put a lower pitch prop on and got out of the hole fine, but lost way too much top end. The stabilizer has taken 1-1.5 mph from my top end with my preferred prop, but I now hit plane more quickly, porpoise less, and stay on plane at slower speeds. I did alot of research before buying, and settled on the one mentioned above for my particular rig. It was between that and the nautilus trim tabs, and I decided on the fin. It hasn't been night and day, but noticably better, especially with multiple people and gear. |
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | Thanks for the replies. I looked at the SE300 and they have great reviews but the clip on the other hand doesn't. Item looks bulky and I can't imagine it wouldn't cause more sped lose.
When I really think it over it's not horrible issues like I've seen others post so if I do get marginal gains that would be enough. A little better hole shot loaded, lower cruising speed, and better porpoise control is my main goals. So I think I'm a candidate for a fin.
Thanks again and if I get to it soon I'll give some feedback. |
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | Also... Looked at trim tabs but with the kicker won't work. Otherwise from the reviews are the best of both worlds. |
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Posts: 795
Location: North Central IL USA | Kleck - 8/28/2012 6:20 PM
I put a SE Sport 300 hydrofoil on my 90 HydroStream with Rude 150xp and love it. The boat only wanted to go fast and I was having issues getting on plane at slower speeds. I noticed a nice difference getting out of the hole faster and getting on plane sooner and easier so I can cruise at lower RPMs. For me it worked and was well worth the $60.
Same here but on a Johnson 70HP. Hole shot was a night and day difference! Can't beat the performance upgrade for 60 bucks!!! |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
I am one who believes the hydrofoil is just a band aid for bigger problems in how the boat is rigged...most notably when a boat is significantly underpowered. I would say in your case that is not the issue, but more along the lines of a prop issue.
I noticed you mentioned you have tried different props. If I may ask, what have you tried and what were the results including hole shot and max rpms? How was handling, how was top speed?
In most cases where a boat has enough hp but still porpoises is due to a few possible factors, first and foremost an over-pitched prop. If the motor cannot get into the top 1/3 or so of the RPM range, there is not enough "umph" from the motor to keep the bow up, thus the bow falls, it then can catch, and up it goes again...thus the porpoise. Sometimes it has to do with how the prop is designed, how much cupping has been added, where the cupping is added and so forth.
The other issue that can potentially happen is for riveted boats, the back edge of the transom has gotten peened up a tad too much, thus making it too easy for the bow to rise too much and the motor cannot hold it, thus the porpoise again. In a welded hull, this is a bad thing since it cannot be adjusted as riveted hull can be. My alumacraft navigator 165 needed to be wedged to tame the bow down, and I have heard of a few others that needed that too.
On a fiberglass hull, it could be how the hull was formed, and be similar to a welded hull in that it cannot just be wedged to adjust. It would take much more than that...more or less the entire hull would have to be (I believe it is called) blue-printed, where they turn the boat over and make sure the hull is level along the length (where there are no gaps or bulges along the running hull as it would travel in the water). IF that is such the case, the gaps are filled or the bulges sanded down so the entire running length would sit flat with a straight edge. Definitely not an easy process, but it can be done.
With the tolerances of todays boat building, though, I would highly doubt that if your hull is fiberglass that this would be the case. It can be checked, though with a straight edge. More often than not, getting the right prop and pitched correctly will take care of the issue, saving you from drilling into the plate, or adding one of those fins.
If you can supply a little information on the RPM's, the props you have tried, etc, there might be something there to try before the drill comes out.
Steve |
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | Thanks Steve for responding. I've talked props with you about a year ago, which was helpful, and discussed which direction to go. Right now I have a Powertech RXB4-17 running 6000-6100 average load at 39-40mph. Decent hole shot and provides some lift. I've had Sola 3 blades in 19, 17, 15 pitches. 19 I knew was to high but still got 45@6000 bad hole shot and of course porpoise issues if not trimmed right (as you illuted to); 17 I ran the most with ok hole and 41@6100; 15 had a rocket hole shot but lost 4-5mph throughout the rpm range. Also tried the 4 blade Solas in 15 pitch but over all performed same or less than 3 blade. I also have a Trophy 17 pitch that I'm testing. Seems to have slightly more stern lift at higher speeds than the Powertech and runs 37-38@6100. Prop has a little more grab but I need two more plugs for the vent holes. Still a little blow out on a hard launch. Now this prop was tested at 2 holes up on motor height. Since then I've moved the motor dowm one hole.
For some reason I did not gain rpm going from top hole up 2 but I got the benefits of less torque steer and porpoise seemed to lesson a bit. I also dropped in speed. So I went up one hole (so we're one down from top) and I lost speed again. Used to run 40.5+\- and now 39 at the highest. Nothing else changed so I don't know what happened.
If I could find a stern lifting 16 pitch SS I may improve more but these are tough to find. I've also read that these boats don't have the best performing hulls. It's a welded aluminum with 20 degree deadrise. Boats rated for 150 but models before and after had a 115 max. So I thought it would handle the stern weight.
Anyways, hope this rambling info helps. Like I said before performance isn't bad but loaded in a chop can get scary at times with how it reacts. Lightly loaded I have no worries.
Thanks again...
Edited by Targa01 8/29/2012 9:12 AM
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Some rigs are underpowered, though maxed out for HP based on coast guard rating, so no inroads available there. Steve is correct about propping etc. However, when you are underpowered, and just want to maximize hole shot and mid range stability, while not losing all of your top end, stabilizers can and do help in some situations. One thing is to be sure to have the motor rigged in the proper bolt holes on the boat as well. I moved mine up just a tad, so that at top end, the Cobra Edge is either completely out of or just skims the water and isn't creating much if any drag, but still assisting if an artificial lift is needed.
Edited by Reef Hawg 8/29/2012 11:19 AM
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Posts: 128
| As I notice more and more guys using these, and liking them, I have to ask: If it is a band aid, so what? If it achieves the results the owner is looking for, at a much cheaper price than a one or more different props, (plus the time to dial in what prop is best), isn't that all that matters? |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
If one is looking to optimize performance of the rig for speed and hole shot, the stabilizer will actually reduce speed since what it is doing is contacting water. Contacting water = friction and friction means loss of performance. So...with a prop that optimizes the rig, the plate is not needed...especially if a steel prop is being used. It begs the question as to why spend upwards of $500 on a prop only to add a fin to deal with an issue that the prop should take care of? That's money wasted. In most cases when a boat is purchased, or if a dealer has a blue prop program, you can try different props in various styles and shapes to see what works best, then choose that prop. Good to go, so what targa is doing is just that... Sometimes it can be a real pain, sometimes it happens fast.
Plus...if someone does not plan on keeping the rig for long, the holes drilled in the plate usually means loss in value....again, money wasted...
Steve |
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Posts: 795
Location: North Central IL USA | smallmouth/musky - 8/29/2012 3:07 PM
As I notice more and more guys using these, and liking them, I have to ask: If it is a band aid, so what? If it achieves the results the owner is looking for, at a much cheaper price than a one or more different props, (plus the time to dial in what prop is best), isn't that all that matters?
Exactly!
Like I said, 60 bucks and I'm good to go! I lost about 1 MPH of top end. No biggie for me. Now if I lost 5MPH, different story. |
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | By all means I'm not done tweaking. I'm still going to try and shed some weight where I can and play with a few more props. If/when I get a stabilizer on there it will probably change the game again. All this trial-n-error has given me a chance to learn my rig better. It's amazing how conventional concepts didn't happen when I made changes which goes to show each rig reacts differently.
I see the purpose of a stabilizer when trying to attain a performance level that a boat may not be able to do on it's own. For instance my boats battery box is in the port rear deck, livewell starboard rear deck, 32 gal tank starboard rear side, then the kicker on port and the bigger motor. Lots of stern weight. I moved my 2 TM batteries (125#) to the front deck compartment but didn't change much other than how the boat sits in the water while fishing. This boat seems to run naturally with a high bow compared to others I've been in. Trimmed all the way in it doesn't "plow" water. But I notice the splash line moves way forward with a much larger wave when off the throttle (~5200 or less light load); which I think is telling me the boat has settled in the water quite a bit.
Keep the feedback or comments coming. I think each has a valid point and Steve was just making I sure I didn't jump straight to an external fix before I get the most out of it.
Thanks again guys.... |
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Posts: 202
Location: Angola, IN | On my old 1969 Starcraft, I have those "automatic" spring-loaded trim tabs. My boat is 18' long and not that wide. I have a 115HP Johnson and a 15HP kicker. I got plenty of room for mine. Tabs don't get in the way.
When I put new stringers, transom, and floor in it, it added some weight. But my boat still goes about 32mph wide open at about 4000 RPM's. I don't care to rev that 43 year old motor too high.
My boat gets on plane in a hury and I have no problems like you discussed, but I can't soely attribute them to the trim tabs. |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Targa01 - 8/30/2012 9:28 AM
By all means I'm not done tweaking. I'm still going to try and shed some weight where I can and play with a few more props. If/when I get a stabilizer on there it will probably change the game again.
I see the purpose of a stabilizer when trying to attain a performance level that a boat may not be able to do on it's own. Keep the feedback or comments coming. I think each has a valid point and Steve was just making I sure I didn't jump straight to an external fix before I get the most out of it.
Thanks again guys....
No problem. Sometimes it just gets to the point that propping won't solve it all without other big changes. I told the dude at D&H prop that I wish there was a prop that started out small, and grew as one got up to speed. He said there is to a degree, but that it wouldn't solve my problem. The one prop he suggested for my heavy glass tiller, was a certain 4 bladed prop that he has sold to some others with decent results. At that point, I had tried 7 different props, and was actually using the aluminum prop, which was performing best. The other thing I had not done, and won't, was moving my three batteries forward, as it won't work with my particular rig. After the fin, I was able to remove my transom wedges(that increased negative trim) and I'm back to my stainless prop and acceptable performance. Very little loss of top end, as the fin is out of or nearly out of the water at full trim.
With all of that said, as I plan to keep the boat for quite some time, I still may revisit the propping, and give one of the suggested four blades models a try, to see if I can further maximize.
Edited by Reef Hawg 8/30/2012 10:23 AM
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | Steve H which trim tabs do you have? I was looking at smart tabs before. |
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Posts: 128
| SteveHulbert - 8/30/2012 9:58 AM
On my old 1969 Starcraft, I have those "automatic" spring-loaded trim tabs. My boat is 18' long and not that wide. I have a 115HP Johnson and a 15HP kicker. I got plenty of room for mine. Tabs don't get in the way.
When I put new stringers, transom, and floor in it, it added some weight. But my boat still goes about 32mph wide open at about 4000 RPM's. I don't care to rev that 43 year old motor too high.
My boat gets on plane in a hury and I have no problems like you discussed, but I can't soely attribute them to the trim tabs.
I know what kind you are talking about. I have a set of those myself that I'm going to put on my boat.
But those are pretty short compared to the newer automatic tabs (i.e. Smartabs). |
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Posts: 202
Location: Angola, IN | Targa01 - 8/30/2012 11:47 AM
Steve H which trim tabs do you have? I was looking at smart tabs before.
I have no idea. They are just spring loaded. Nothing "smart" about them. When the boat is at rest, the tabs stick down into water at a steep angle. As the boat moves forward, the resistance from the water compresses the spring and the taps move up (more parallel with the water line) until you are going at a decent speed, and then they are completely parallel.
They are way old school. |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | SteveHulbert - 8/30/2012 12:17 PM
Targa01 - 8/30/2012 11:47 AM
Steve H which trim tabs do you have? I was looking at smart tabs before.
I have no idea. They are just spring loaded. Nothing "smart" about them. When the boat is at rest, the tabs stick down into water at a steep angle. As the boat moves forward, the resistance from the water compresses the spring and the taps move up (more parallel with the water line ) until you are going at a decent speed, and then they are completely parallel.
They are way old school.
That is exactly what the smart tabs do. They are todays 'old school' tabs. No controls, no sensors, just spring or hydraulic tension.
http://www.nauticusinc.com/smart_tabsSX.htm
Edited by Reef Hawg 8/30/2012 1:22 PM
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Sweet. That is exactly what mine do. Except I don't have the spring arm. Mine just has a spring coiled inside the hinge.....just like automatic door hinges.
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Posts: 82
Location: Cottage Grove, Mn | Hello Steve,
Good to see your project boat. Here's some new school ideas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y22Qd6F6f7Q&feature=player_embedded |
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | I mocked up some cardboard cutouts the size of the Smart tabs and put them on the boat. Just can't seem to make enough room with the kickers turn radius. I think it would might work on a boat that has a wider bottom width but not quite enough room on my Tracker. So it's back to the plate idea. Hopefully this week I can get to it. |
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