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| Hey everyone, I'm new to the form. I have recently started making muskie baits. They have been turning out nice, however in the heat of the summer and in intense sunlight, a couple have cracked on me and it appears as if the paint may be releasing from the primer (with the epoxy on top). I was told that not many lures can handle being in situations where temps may exceed 40 degrees celsius (say in a clear tackle box left in your boat on a hot summer day)... however I'd like to reduce the possibility of this occuring.
These are the steps I take...
1. use a blank of basswood. i prefer basswood over cedar.
2. soak it for 2-3 minutes in a 50:50 mixture of spar urethane: mineral spirits
3. prime it with generic 'rattle can' primer from Canadian tire...
***this is where I think I may be having an issue...
4.mulitple colours of water-based creatix paint - airbrushed on.
5. 2-3 coats of enviro-tex light, 2-part epoxy and spun.
I feel its possible that i am not getting good bonding between my creatix water based paint and the primer. can water-based paint not cling to certain types of primer (example, oil-based...etc...).
When I chip my Wiley lures they seem to chip to the wood, mine chip to the primer...
another question is that I heard of companies, like Wiley and Leo lures, to use polyurethane top coats instead of epoxies... any truth to this? I'd like to have a bit better top coat like those lures...
Thank you so much for any help!!!
Kyle |
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Posts: 1529
| kyle change your sealer strategy. |
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Posts: 4266
| Change your wood. Basswood expands and contracts more than any wood I've ever worked with. After having some of the problems you describe, I talked to the tech people who make my sealer/primer and my paint and the people at ETex. All said the same thing....the wood was far too flexible, making it difficult at best for all of the sealing/painting and clearcoat products to return to their desired shape after being stretched by the expanding and then contracting Basswood. To sum it up, you wind up with an eggshell being held in place by only the screweyes.
Beav |
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Posts: 556
| Had the same thing happen to me earlier this year with baits left in a clear plano box....The heat build up was so intense it lifted the clear topcoat and paint and primer right off the bait. Baits left outside the box--even in 90 degree temps and sunshine experienced no problems at all. Only time I have had an issue--I think its just the extreme temp buildup inside that box.
Edited by esox911 8/6/2012 8:14 PM
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Posts: 4266
| My daughter and I were up at Vermillion during the heat wave, and though I didn't have any problems with hard lures, I had a Plano box full of Ghostails and all of the short flashabou melted into hard little globs. I'm glad that I don't own any all tinsel lures. Bucktail never melts.
I have a bunch of Bagleys that all bubbled up a couple of years ago. The common denominator? Balsa wood and Bass wood, soft wood expands too much, then when it contracts, if the paint wasn't ruined when it swelled, it will be when it contracts. |
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| I understand that the wood will contract and expand a bit which is why I've found Etex to stand up better than D2T. It has only been a problem with a couple lures and I'm talking extreme heat.
What would you suggest I change in terms of the sealing process?
Should I look more into cedar? From what I understand cedar and basswood share similar characteristics in terms of expansion, durability, water resistance, etc... I have basswood decoys that are 40+ years old... I also have nearly 1300 board feet which I had milled so I would very much like to continue using it....
Thank you for the help guys!
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Posts: 2
| I've been reading posts now for a while... Is this ZAR sanding seal available in Canada... I'd like to try it...
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Posts: 2
| I've made several baits to date... here's my site if you'd like to take a look... www.johnstonlurecompany.com
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Posts: 4266
| If you have that much, keep using it.
Different paints, sealers and other things that we use to seal, paint and clear-coat lures may have compatability problems. I've talked to enough tech people that one thing stuck out....use as many components from the same maker and you should avoid problems. If you stuff is chipping but the primer and sealer are intact, look to the next layer....the paint. Does the paint have an issue with the primer? Call the people who make the primer and those that make the paint and ask them. Are you cleaning the dry, primed lure? Oils from your skin can keep a paint from sticking and so can dirt. Are you applying the paint in light coats and allowing enough time for it to dry before you put on another?
I quit using water-based paints after the first lures I painted. I could not stand the pace of the process. Now I use lacquers, acrylics, candies and all kinds of specialty paints all made by House of Kolor, so I know that they are all compatable. I know I'm using the correct thinners, basecoats and finishes.
Like Stan Durst, I use Sherwin-Williams Barrier Coat, it seals and primes all in one dip, but I sand after one and dip again. Before I used it, I called and talked with their tech people and told them what was going over it to make sure. The fumes could kill you, so I use it in a well-vented area with a bandana over my mouth and nose along with a professional resparator mask. No lure is worth you life.
Check your compatability and your painting to find the culprit.
Good Luck
Beav |
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Posts: 1
| Beaver, quick question...how does the sherwin-williams barrier coat look when it's dry? I have been using rustoleum 7790 flat white and I like it but I still have to seal the bait first. What's nice about the 7790 is it dries to a flat white that's almost like a chalkboard and it takes any type of waterbased airbrush paint that I've put on it. I like the idea of sealing/priming in one step. |
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Posts: 496
| Kyle,
Something I had issues with and finally figured out on my own was ....once you get the etex on and are using heat to get rid of bubbles , don't get it too hot . It was turning my primer into goo , then everything would eventually peel off , drove me nuts till one day I realized that what was peeling off was sticky on the inside . After that things have been better . I am just using kilz now and painting ove rit with pretty good results . But , listen to Beaver and the boys they are pro's . I am still hacking . I tried Sherwin Williams for Barrier Coat and they looked at me like I was an alien ....... |
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Posts: 1207
Location: Pigeon Forge TN. | Some of the SW stores don't have it. They need to order it in so make them call their tec people. Beav and I have been using the barrier coat for a long time now. The wood will kinda look like you put varnish on it.. Like Beav, I use some house of kolor but a lot of auto lacquer too along with specialty paints. Except for my final clear coating all my paint is solvent based lacquer. You can paint wet over wet and saves much time.
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Posts: 4266
| The Barrier Coat has to be ordered from most small Sherwin Williams stores, but I'm not far from a big SW plant. After I dip my blanks in Barrier Coat, the first dip is a little bubbly or rough depending on the wood, but the second coat dries like an egg shell.
I'll get the exact wording and numbers off of the bucket in my garage and post it.
Don't call me a 'pro', I've just been trying for a long time. You guys can learn from my mistakes.
Beav |
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| kyle
ask to woodie to be more explicit,his paint job is the toughest i have ever seen,when he paint the thing really stick one the lures and for many years to come |
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| wow kyle
i have take a look at your website,awesome lures bro!
if you switch from basswood to red ceadar i am your man for a couple,keep up the good work they look really good lure |
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Posts: 4266
| Ask the people for Polystyrene Barrier Coat. One bad thing is that they sell it in 5 gallon buckets. I live near a plant, so sometimes I can get a short pour if all they have is 55 gallon drums. |
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| I live right up the road from the sherwin williams plant here in fort erie, i also have a couple buddies that work there. what exactly does it replace in my process? Is it a sealer (to replace the spar urethane sealing process) or does it replace the sealing and priming (like the kilz stuff)....
i guess what im asking is, does the lure still require a prime coat to get it white?
recently i have experimented with NOT sealing my baits. I wanted to see what would happen. i purposely punsctured the bait as if a muskie tooth had went through. i was amazed how water had gotten into the bait and even made some of the paint run...
i never realized how important this process is up until now, and i want to get it right.
thanks again guys
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Posts: 501
Location: Norway | I make my own polystyrene sealer. Jewel cases (cd covers) are made of polystyrene, I crush these, and mix them with thinner (regular, no virgin thinner). The jewel case will dissolve and you have a mixture that seals the bait very well. Ive usually have had 2 jars, one with a pretty thin mixture (for soaking the wood), and one with a more thicker one for building up a smooth layer to paint on. You can also use white polystyrene cups for the building up mixture, and you get a white basecoat in the process.
Michael |
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| hey you mentioned that I should change my sealing strategy... any more insight?? hahaha...
thank you guys.... i'm experimenting now
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Posts: 1529
| kyle insight takes hours and failures.i will send you a pm |
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Posts: 1529
| cant pm oh well. i wont put everything on the net |
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| woobie feel free to email me! [email protected] |
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| Sorry, woodie, hit b instead of d... If you have pointers theyre safe with me.... Id appreciate anything at this point···· |
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| Is it better to use enamel (oil-based) primer or water based primer???
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Posts: 4266
| I'm still trying other new things that come out from House of Kolor. They have new Mid-Coat Clears and other clears that you thin and spray on after I prime and seal. The first tests were awesome. I dipped one coat of SWBarrier Coat, and then after a full drying period, I sanded it as usual and gave it another dip. That was a glider. So the first crankbait that I did, I put on one coat of SWBC and then sanded it and cleaned it up, then I sprayed on a coat of the new Mid Coat clear followed by white primer on one, pearl primer on another and silver primer on a third, then a mist of clear before basecoat, and 4 hours later I dropped one on a concrete floor and nothing happened, absolutely nothing. But the clear was lighter and thinner on the cranks than the 2 coats of SWBC on the glider. Every year there are new and exciting products on the market and sometimes I find one or two that make sense.
Woodie, my PM is still working. You can get my e-mail and phone number too. Maybe when I have time when I'm re-habbing my knee, you can send me your address and I'll take the train.
Beaver |
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Posts: 152
| yes i used bass wood for this years lure release up at the musky shop and its been nothing but a problem . it can shrink and swell so much it is silly . it just is not worth the hassle it takes to keep it from doing this . im looking at changing my whole line to a different wood from here on out . bass wood is the problem the seal process is so complicated and expensive with this wood that it takes the fun out of the process . |
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