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| Why arnt muskies reproducing on Lake Webster?
MUSKY ILLINI
"UNO NICKLELAY" |
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| Because they’re stocked |
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| Hybrids are not capable of reproducing, but stocked "pure" strain muskies are capable of copulating.... I mean... reproducing as far as I know.
The Wild Rose Hatchery experiment on Long Lake concluded that the spotted muskies stocked there were not naturally reproducing due to the lack of CURRENT in their new enviroment.... and made no reference to their inability to reproduce biologically as an explanation. The Wisconsin DNR is hoping that their Spotted Musky Program in Green Bay and Lake Winnebago will "jump start" more natural reproduction in those systems. If they don't start reproducing on their own.... I'm afraid their limited stocking efforts will be like pi$$ing in the ocean. Let's hope that is not the case and they can find evidence soon of natural reproduction in these systems.
Doesn't explain the situation at Lake Webster, but offers some info from a biological point of view. From what I understand, Webster has some ideal spawning habitat... yet not many of the fish are reportedly visiting it according to the tracking studies.
Anyone else know more about this subject??????? |
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| dude...there is a small(600 acre)lake here + muskies haven't been stocked since '82 or '84....yet 4 small ones over the past 2 yrs have been caught between 20" + 28" or so...I caught one last yr. about 26-27" so they must have spawned at least once + a few survived. I'm wondering if there are any big ones left as I think they won't live as long here. |
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| For some reason there seems to be very little natural reproduction in lakes much south of mid Wisconsin except in streams or rivers. I really don't know what the reason is but it sure seems to be true. Many of the southern lakes are some sort of a reserviour which is subject to great fluctuations in water levels as well as siltation problems, but then so are the rivers.
I wonder if the stocking in most of the southern lakes are with strains that really aren't suited for the enviromental conditions that these southern areas present, and they can't quite get the natural reproducion done in lakes for some reason. It looks like most natural reproduction in lakes is done in the northern parts of Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Ontario. It must be something with the strain of fish being used. I know that the fish are producing fertile eggs and sperm as the various states use the local fish for striping, and they produce muskies. It's a very interesting question.
Doug Johnson |
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| jlong A coworker of mine lives on a creek north of here and has seen the spotted muskies run up there and attempt to spawn, do not know about their success though.
Roger |
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| Brian:
I too am stumped why some of the larger, seemingly great lakes in Minnesota don't seem to have much natural reproduction of muskies yet other species do well.
The most commonly used explanation for lack of natural reproduction is fluctuation of the water levels, and siltation, or lack of suitable spawning habitat, none of which would seem to be a problem on the lakes you mention. It just seems like once you get past a certain line down from the north there just isn't much natural reproduction.
Yet I know that some of the rivers and streams in Kentucky and West Virginia had natural populations of muskies, and Lake St. Claire does well. For that matter the big open part of the LOTWs doesn't seem to have any natural reproduction of muskies either. There seems to be something else that must come into play when muskies are trying to make babies. What that is for sure, is not very clear, and I've never seen any articles that say what the problem is.
Doug Johnson
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| Correct me if I am wrong fellas, but... Before man corrupted the environment muskies had native, and naturally reproducing, populations as far south as Tennessee. Development took over and people decided they didn't want miskies in their waters. Maybe there was an additional "southern" strain of muskie that we weeded out over time. Back to the point of lack of reproduction in southern waters, I think it has more to do with poor water quality, in conjunction with lack of spawning grounds.
And....rumor has it there IS limited reproduction in Webster. Several very small (smaller than recent stockings) muskies were netted in recent surveys.
Bubba |
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| I guarantee that the Barbee/Tippy chain has natural repro and by rights Webster should. I've seen MANY juvenile musky in Tippy over the years-I grew up there. I used to see juvie musky and pike hunting in the grass when the lake flooded. And, incidentally there have been adult musky in Tippy forever. I have seen pictures and even mounted specimens that preceeded any stocking effort in Webster upstream. I caught my first musky in the Tippy River below Warsaw in the late 70's. Theoretically, Webster muskies looking for "current" to spawn in near the outlet are washed over the dam into the Tippy River. After spawning they are forced to go downstream into Tippy-as are the juvenile fish after hatching.
As a biologist I have noticed over the years that many times mysteries are easily answered if you look at the big picture. Don't think of Webster Lake as a 500 acre musky pond-think of Loon, Backwater, Webster, Tippy and the Barbee chain and all of there associated little ponds, bays, inlets and outlets, channels, creeks, rivers and springs as a giant musky territory. There is EVERY kind of habitat in that territory and I guarantee that natural repro is possible given the proper strain or strains of fish.
Also, based on my experience with the DNR and their knowledge of natural repro of steelhead-I wouldn't put a heck of a lot of stock in anything they say. When wild juvenile steelhead can be found in every creek long before they stock them in the spring and yet the DNR has excuses for their existence I can't help but to think that "job security" has something to do with it. |
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| There probably is some reproduction but water conditions have to be right. I have heard that sediments of any kind will smother and kill the eggs. Thats the main reason why there is no success in illinois. So if conditions get muddy during spawning time that's a bad thing. |
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| The (sad) fact of the matter is, muskies in general are very poor reporducers. They simply are not prolific. Which is the way it should be, being THE alpha predator in no matter what water they live in all across the continent. Now why pike can be very prolific in certain waters I don't know, theoretically they should not be that adept at reproducing if they wanted to reach their full growth potential.
There have been several instances here in Michigan where the DNR says there is no natural reproduction, and yet a Tiger muskie shows up magically-Hmmm. All fish populations can go through cycles actually, depending on weather/environmental patterns or predator-prey biorhythms or whatever (no one knows for sure). For muskies, which have especially low egg viability and survivability through the fry stage, this can mean the difference between virtually no natural recruitment for a period, and then a successful spawning year or two.
One thing's for sure, they need well-oxygenated water (current would help). That means the eggs need not to be silted over, or buried in organic material (muck), and decaying organic material in these areas sucks up a lot of oxygen in the process as well that can 'suffocate' the vulnerable eggs/fry.
I believe it is simply foolishness of Fisheries biologists to say there is "no natural reproduction" in any given body of water, anywhere. Remember Jurassic Park (life finds a way), that is actually very true (I just hatched a raptor in my back yard last week;)). Research now shows that even tiger muskies can reproduce (1 in 10,000, some believe much more). And splake too, biologist's other favorite "sterile" hybrid is being found to be more and more viable. Anyway, you can bet that anywhere muskies swim, they are repoducing. You certainly can't stop them from trying, and eventually they just might get lucky even in the worst of environments.
Webster muskies are reproducing- their biggest hurdle might not be the lack of dissolved oxygen on the organic bottom, it probably is trying to not get cannibalized by all those fish in there!! Fascinating stuff anyway. |
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| While I can't say whether they are or not, I just ran across some scientific data that could help explain this problem in many areas, including the north.
From "WHAT'S MUSKY WATER?" by Leon Johnson, Research Biologist, Wisconsin DNR, WISCONSIN CONSERVATION BULLETIN, March-April, 1968:
"Muskies reproduce in some lakes not in others. Why? Research has shown that musky eggs die in too-cold lake water. But the problem is complex and further work may reveal other factors...The muskellunge...has a problem...The historic range of the muskellunge is located in seven north-central counties (Wisconsin). Why has this limitation existed? The area of delineation is so sharp that lakes lying only 2 miles apart may be either musky or non-musky waters!...Seven north-central counties constitute the historic home of the musky. But even within this area, certain lakes do not permit musky eggs and fry to survive...We noted that eggs incubated on bottom silts in the best spawning areas were free of fungus growths, even on dead eggs. Eggs suspended in the water, or on sand or gravel which are not typical spawning areas, were always infected with fungus."
Hope this helps shed "some" light on a difficult subject.
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com |
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| Just remembered another Leon Johnson paper I read that found that "zinc content" in the water had a huge impact on reproductive success.
Bubba: There was and is natural reproduction in southern streams clear into northern Alabama. Several of the original streams of the south were native muskie waters. I suspect pollution and reserviors have had an impact on this.
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com |
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| Good info. Larry....me Grandad used to catch them way long before they were more popular in the New River + the population though small is natural to the river. The main problem is convincing peeps that they don't eat every fish in the river system...that has been shown to be the result of anglers keeping every fish they catch then blaming it on the musky.[:(] |
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Here is a paper i wrote last year, its kinda lenghthy, but its got some good stuff. the moral of the story is, if you catch a pike, make sure to indroduce him the your livewell or the side of your boat.
Muskellunge spawn in the spring just after ice out, between mid April and late May. They spawn in shallow water usually between 6 inches and 3ft of depth. The large fish are in a very vulnerable situation in shallow water from predators. Muskellunge start spawning when the water temperature reaches 49 degrees and the optimal temperature is 55 degrees. Males will move into the spawning area a couple days before the females do. Muskellunge will look for small feeder streams or weedy marshes to spawn with muddy bottoms, covered in vegetation. Muskellunge will spawn in the same area year after year. Muskellunge don’t build nest(beds) like many other North American game fish, they are random spawners and the female is usually accompanied by one or two males. They swim around the general spawning area during the day and at simultaneous times the fish will roll so that the anus of the male and female are approximated and a small number of eggs and milt are shed simultaneously during rapid vibration of the bodies and they lash their tails which spreads the fertilized eggs and the pair swim on. Eggs are usually deposited along 100 yards of shoreline. This lashing of the tail is very violent and it causes deep gashes, split fins, and sometimes can kill the fish. The spawning act will occur any time at different intervals over a couple day period. The number of eggs is between 22,000 to 180,000, with larger females producing a larger amount of eggs. Spawning last between 5 and 10 days, and after it is finished females will leave the spawning grounds. Males will stay around for a couple weeks but they do not protect the eggs. The development of the egg varies with water temperature during incubation. The young muskellunge hatches between a week to two weeks depending on the temperature, which is usually between 53 Degrees and 63 Degrees. Only 1/3rd of the eggs spawned in the wild are fertile. After the eggs hatch the fry remain dormant for 10 days and consume their yolk. At 10 weeks of age the growth of the muskellunge is very rapid reaching 6” in length and at 7 months of age the muskellunge are between 10-12” in length. Muskellunge eggs and fry are extremely sensitive to water temperature fluctuations. The number of eggs that make it to adulthood is very minute and this is the reason why Muskellunge are limited and scarce.
If Muskellunge spawned in similar water temperatures as Northern Pike and Walleye, they would be much more abundant in population. The major predator of muskellunge fry is northern pike fry and numerous other predators such as yellow perch, bass, sunfish, crayfish and insects. The Northern pike spawns 2-5 weeks before the Muskellunge and the pike fry feed heavily on the muskellunge fry. In a study done to prove this point, 25,000 northern pike and 25,000 muskellunge fry were stocked in a pond. After one month, 409 northern pike were reported and only 4 muskellunge. One of the major factors that fisheries biologist look for when determining waters to stock muskellunge is the abundance of northern pike in the water. If there is a high population of northern pike; the muskellunge fry wouldn’t survive, therefore very few if any would reach maturity. Also if a lake has a good population of northerns, even if the fry do live to be a year old they are still not safe from predation by larger northern. The northern pike is taking over many lakes that were previously inhabited by muskellunge. To get rid of this problem management has been implemented to remove the pike by increasing bag limits and increasing the stocking of muskellunge. In the past, fry would be used when stocking waters, but fortunately it became known that this practice of stocking fry lead to a very high rate of mortality. Today, musky are usually stocked as fingerlings between 10”-20”, and although they still have a high mortality rate it is much more productive than stocking fry. another hindrance to the muskellunge is their eggs; unlike the northern pike’s, the muskellunge eggs sink rapidly and are not adhesive so many eggs settle to the muddy bottom and die from the lack of oxygen. Musky fishing brings in a lot of money for states and is very important to the economy. Without proper managagement the future of the muskellunge does not look positive. Strong programs must be implemented quickly in many waters before it is to late. Little to none musky stocking programs occur in Northern Michigan. It is a shame because Northern Michigan has wonderful waters where the musky could flourish. I believe many old and wrong steortypes of this fish such as “ they will eat everything in the lake” have hurt the stocking programs. Many people believe if muskellunge are stocked in a lake that it will ruin the bass, perch, walleye and sunfish population of the lake. This is not the case at all and in some instances the addition of musky to a certain water can help the population of other fish, especially where there is stunted fish. Pound for Pound the musky eats just as much food as any other fish. Catching a musky is thrill and a memory that will last a lifetime. The Musky is the most exciting game fish in North America and it is a tradety that these fish are not given the attention and funds that they desperatly need.
"Tah Da Gills"
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| Since muskies are often spawning in weedy bays, has the DNR (or anyone) drawn the link to the invention of millfoil? I know in the metro area and tonka especially, milfoil is the dominent weed. It creates a large amount of silt when decomposing. This may be the deciding factor. |
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| Im not sure on what types of milfoil there are but i know the DNR is worried about spreading the exotic eurasion milfoil. It spreads very rapidly, i know of a lake where it has been spread into just the boat landing area, and the fish just love it. I also know of a muskie lake in Vilas county where i've herd it is so thick you cant even fish it, but there supposed to be stacked in der like cord wood. Not sure on the spawning aspect, thats a good question.
Screw da swimmers.
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