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| "libstateblues - 1/7/2012 8:35 AM
Minn (D) mindset: if the police pull over a minority for a traffic violation that is racial profiling.
if the police pull over every boater, even in the absence of visible infractions, that is fine.
So the state is hiring new officers to man these police checkpoints. I doubt all the tickets they give will cover the salaries, benefits, insurance, and eventual retirement benefits for these newly-hired State employees. Perhaps a small tax state income tax increase will be required eventually as well."
I always like how the true outdoorsmen is a republican? Read before you post moron. |
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| I think someone mentioned earlier that the last two know zebra mussel infestations happened due to the moving of an infected boat lift. So obviously it makes sense to make boaters lives miserable. These lakeshore owner associations are a ral piece of work. I am curious as to hear what everyone's favorite lakeshore association president Dick Osgood has to say about all this I am sure he is positively GIDDY!! |
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| This was posted by STEVE FELLEGY in Star Tribune blog and couldn't be more correct!
And then there's my pet peeve about this whole thing. And with that, I will ask again........"how am I breaking the intentions of the law driving down the road, on my way home or to my motel/resort cabin?"
In fact, the ONLY way I am, potentially, transporting invasive species from one lake to another is as I back my boat down the access ramp!!!! Who is the DNR or a court to say my intentions, as I drive down the road, on my way home, is to transport invasive species to another lake? Because I am on the road? That's like saying I am going to break a speed limit as I leave my home, entering the highway, before I do it.
So, tag me and others carrying the bad stuff on our rigs as we ENTER the lake, NOT LEAVING the lake! How can we clean our boats before we enter the highway? At a resort ramp let alone a public access? How?? You have to allow us to go home and use whatever it takes to get weeds etc. off our trailers! Does anyone in St. Paul have a way, to consistently, clean their boats to meet the standards of the law, before they leave the boat ramp and head home? I dare anyone of you to show me how to do this at the ramps I use! I invite any DNR enforcement officer to show me......
I think the intent is great. I agree we need to do whatever we can to stop the spread of bad stuff into our clean lakes. The DNR needs to stop the spread of the stuff at the boat ramp as boats ENTER the lake, NOT LEAVING the lake! Not on the road! On the boat ramp backing into the water. That's the ONLY place the intent of the law is being broken!
But traffic jams and a scenario boaters and anglers can not comply to as they leave the lake is just wrong. And, most likely, illegal in the end.....
contact Steve Fellegy |
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Posts: 3504
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | I have a question that might be similar to this to some extent, which I think is what DJS is kind of getting at...
Years ago, the DNR operated checkpoints for game posession, firearms violations, etc. I remember getting checked at one near Fourtown, MN. They checked the truck to make sure we were in compliance with transportation of weapons.
I also remember one time in Canada where the MNR ran checkpoints for game and fish checks as well. Required us to pull over and they could tear us down and inspect our rigs as well.
In both cases, we had nothing to hide (although I was a bit nervous in the second scenario since I was driving in the lead truck of 4, and my truck had all of the fish coolers...enough for 15 people that year). All was good, because the group had nothing to hide.
BUT...if memory also serves me correctly here, didn't Minnesota AND Canada STOP those checks due to what I believe is DJS's point? I believe it was deemed a violation of search and seizure without probably cause....hence the inspections stopped...at least to what I know/recall. I've traveled enough across the state and have never seen one since (and the truck check in Fourtown was somewhere around 1988 or so)
I'm guessing at some point this will end up in court....and an argument will be made about the constitutionality of the inspection.
I see DJ's point, and I agree with it. I submitted to a search this fall when I was followed by a couple of conservation officers because I put my drain plug in at home (the other end of town) and did not install it at the ramp. I had nothing to hide since my bilge and livewell were dry, but they did give me a written warning for the plug being in. Needless to say, I was a bit ticked at the whole thing... But...that is now the law. I was in violation when they pulled up, so it is my fault. Just had me mad because my boat was bone dry...
The other side of this argument, though, is that if I am in compliance, the inspection should not be anything I would worry about. Somebody wants to do a full tear-down of my rig, I wouldn't care. I would watch carefully, though..
Definitely a touchy subject, though... No doubt, good intent with the law, but I think DJS has this one right... Intent is good, but I don't think it would hold up in court..
Steve
Edited by VMS 1/7/2012 9:30 PM
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| DJS...loudly making mountains out of molehills. As usual.
Take 5 minutes to clean your trailer at the landing. If you encounter a checkpoint, it will take about 1 minute for them to look under your boat and make sure your plugs are out.
Sheesh.
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| My understanding is the DNR and probable cause don't really go hand in hand, the nature of what they do...enter private land, inspect livewells etc precludes that...in other words the laws they enforce don't require probable cause for inspection.
And hunting, fishing, boating are not rights...they are licenced activities subject to inspection...like the food inspector.
Other than that probably a little late as the horse is already running loose in the pasture. |
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Location: Straight out from shore! |
What a bone headed remark! What is so wrong with this? Get off ur a$$ and check your rig before leaving the landing you lazy sob! |
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Posts: 227
Location: Maple Grove | Fishkabibble - 1/7/2012 10:55 PM
What a bone headed remark! What is so wrong with this? Get off ur a$$ and check your rig before leaving the landing you lazy sob!
Ever leave a lake late at night and despite shining everywhere on your boat with a flashlight discover you missed a weed the next morning? Yeah, never happened to me either. If it did I would appreciate the opportunity to decontaminate at home while my intention was not to drop into another lake before then. Maybe I'm just a lazy SOB though.
Maybe these additional decontamination stations should be placed at launches for boaters to have the opportunity to use before hitting the road. I'm trying to understand the consistency. Make your rig pass a visual inspection before you leave the launch and you're good. Miss something and you now need a hot water high pressure wash at a check point versus cleaning it off by hand as if you were still at the launch. If that is the DNR's stance shouldn't every boat get a hot water high pressure wash?
I'm all for controlling AIS but I don't see this as the optimal solution. I wish I had one.
Joe Olstadt |
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| WOW !!! Seems like a idea that most can live with----If it helps limit the spead of the invasives I am all for it. Some here have just gone off the wall with their WORRY over this----maybe it's time for them to quit boating. I am more with the belief that I will do anything to help---If I am legal and obeying the boating laws I should have no problem. |
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | It seems to be a fuzzy area, though... Bob, you are right, though in your observations...conservation officers can and do go on private property to check for violations and such, but it wasn't all that long ago that the law was changed about how they can enter a fish-house on a lake. I believe it was deemed an invasion of privacy if they just come up and enter without knocking and/or announcing who they are, then they must ask to take a look, and if the owner was not there at the time, they could not enter without probable cause...
I just suspect that as this gets rolling, there might be some question to this whole process..
I do want to say I am not against the inspections and checkpoints. If I am doing my part right, I have nothing to fear and will be on my way in short order if I hit a check point. Just not sure it will hold up if someone were to take it to court...
By the way Bob...GREAT SHOW yesterday!!
Steve |
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| I am by no stretch of the imagination a constitutional lawyer so I can't comment on the legality of what they've already passed into law. But would like to make a comment regarding a lot of folks using phrases like "I have nothing to hide" and "we shouldn't worry about a little inconvenience, if it helps get rid of such n' such".
I'm a stark believer in this country and rights that come with citizenship. But I find this one thing to be true, as long as local/state or federal government only incrementally intrudes on what I would deem our rights as citizens, most people will go along with it. Obviously, people in power have found this works, and works quite well, and to be honest im starting to really question wether or not people care at all about what is going on.
Now of course, if folks reading this want to call me a black helicopter guy just because I don't feel like "open ended stops" of a group of people that happen to be towing boats is ok, please feel free. I would really just like for more people to question the motives of there elected/appointed officals when it comes to new laws/policies, that above any other is key to U.S. citizenship.
Now let black helicopter bashing begin!!!!! 
Edited by Kodiak_HL 1/8/2012 3:42 PM
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | I'm with you Kodiak. Ever since the "Patriot" Act was put in place, our rights have been eroded in the name of public safety and other reasons that are "for our own good".
Now, the seemingly overreaching "solution" to prevent further proliferation of AIS. Harsh measures ensuring the masses suffer because there are a few douc**bags who think they are above the rules.
That said, something indeed needs to be done about slowing the spread (too late to stop it - the genie is out of the bottle) of AIS. I don't profess to have a solution but what about having a hybrid approach including both launch inspection and wash stations. Say for example boat X is inspected and determined to be clean. That boat is given a "receipt" and sent on its way. Should this boat be pulled over for any reason the driver has proof that they are clean. Now consider Boat Y, which is determined to be "dirty". That boat is sent to the local "wash station" to be properly cleaned. Once cleaned, they get a receipt and are sent on their way. Should boat Y not show up at the cleaning station, they decide to forfeit a painful sum, say $500 for ignoring the directive. That way they will be more inclined to "remember" the next time it happens.
Couple this with pre-launch inspections and maybe we can reduce the spread of AIS without creating a nightmare on the highway. Sure, the hassle is moved to the launch but isn't protecting the resource worth a little inconvenience ?
Kodiak_HL - 1/8/2012 3:39 PM
I am by no stretch of the imagination a constitutional lawyer so I can't comment on the legality of what they've already passed into law. But would like to make a comment regarding a lot of folks using phrases like "I have nothing to hide" and "we shouldn't worry about a little inconvenience, if it helps get rid of such n' such".
I'm a stark believer in this country and rights that come with citizenship. But I find this one thing to be true, as long as local/state or federal government only incrementally intrudes on what I would deem our rights as citizens, most people will go along with it. Obviously, people in power have found this works, and works quite well, and to be honest im starting to really question wether or not people care at all about what is going on.
Now of course, if folks reading this want to call me a black helicopter guy just because I don't feel like "open ended stops" of a group of people that happen to be towing boats is ok, please feel free. I would really just like for more people to question the motives of there elected/appointed officals when it comes to new laws/policies, that above any other is key to U.S. citizenship.
Now let black helicopter bashing begin!!!!! :)
Edited by dfkiii 1/8/2012 5:42 PM
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| I am not an attorney and don't know whether it is legal or not but I do think that the best remedy is for everyone to take some time at the landing, remove weeds, drain tanks, etc.
I volunteer for our lake association and virtually all the guys we have seen in the last couple years are very concerned about taking care of things. When I first started it was not uncommon for muskie fisherman to make comments like, "well, if this lake gets choked with milfoil, there are lots more in Oneida County". Today we don't get that and in fact a lot of the fisherman make a point of thanking us for taking time to volunteer. Of course, that may be because we also spend our spare time picking up broken glass and other stuff that messes up a landing and a lot of the regulars recognize that.
And for the record, I have never heard any of the members of our lake assoc. comment on wanting to close the lake to non-owners, not even as a joke. They are concerned about invasives, but many of them also go to other lakes and understand the importance of keeping access. On our lake, our assoc. places the channel markers and removes them. We are collecting funds to replace them and everyone benefits from those efforts, not just property owners. |
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| Quote: Men in Black (the first one) "a person can be smart, people are stupid"
I am all for slowing the spread of the invasives...and also less limitations on our freedoms and us being less regulated as a whole. This is one of those issues where only comon sense is required to slow the spread but that is lacking in our society as a whole. That and a complete lack of knowledge of most regulations by the average boater are the current situation..so they are trying to regulate common sense and have turned it into a law. The whole enfocement issue of these laws have some gaping holes. Here is just one problem with pass/fail enforcement policies and no warnings etc.
The one thing that will never be a factor (unfortunatly) in any 100% pass/fail enforcement inspections and possible resulting citation$.
UNDERSTANDING
EFFORT
INTENT...
On the part of the boater. Reality is that there are days when you can never get your trailer totally clean...a big wind blowing into a landing on a busy milfoil infested lake generally results in a carpet of weeds that will get inbetween the bunks and boat, up inside the other tight areas on the trailor and boat. These spots creat a situation where you pull/break off what you can but some weed will remain. Even if your intent and effort are solid you are still in violation. Have your boat sit a week in a zebra infested lake and all the draining in the world won't kill the little guys that got up into your engine intakes and took hold.
So good knowledge, effort and all the good intentions a man could muster would/ could still result in a citation.
The simple fact is look hard enough and you will find at least some small amount of weed on any boat leaving a milfoil infested lake. And a tiny bit or a whole clump can infest the next body of water just as easily.
In the end it won't work, maybe it does slow growth and spread a tiny bit but it will catch some informed, caring and concerned anglers with all the best intents right in its crosshairs.
All because... ?
Edited by bturg 1/9/2012 12:02 AM
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| Seen many asian beetles lately?
Me neither.
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Location: Hudson, WI | They did a couple of zebra checks on the St. Croix this year. Once at Lakefront in Hudson and a few times at the Bluffs in Afton. Basically, there is a just a CO at the launch making sure everyone pulls the plug and cleans any weeds or attached zebras. I do it every time anyway, so no big deal.
What would be a big deal is if I was driving home and got randomly pulled over. After the boat was found to be clean, I wonder if the next question would be, "Have you been drinking?"
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| DUI checkpoints are illegal under the MN state constitution, not the US Federal Constittution. Other states still have DUI checkpoints.
http://www.ghsa.org/html/stateinfo/laws/checkpoint_laws.html |
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| gonna have to write alot of tickets to cover that 300K purchase of power washers ! I have meet and done business with the worst invasive species of all time ..... the Government . MD
Edited by ManitouDan 1/9/2012 11:22 AM
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| Jon, good link.
And it affirms my point about how screwed up state/federal opinions are about citizen's rights. One state says, "no we can't do that because it infringes on this portion of citizen's state/federal constitutional rights" and another state says, on the exact same subject "no, we can do that, we don't believe it violates any person's state/federal constitutional rights".
How in god's name does any state or the federal government legally police there citizens if no one in today can even agree on "basic civil rights for all" that have existed for over 239 years!
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| I am not a lawyer—though I watched a guy play one on TV once—and I think it's all a covert attempt to raise funds for a new stadium for the Vikings! |
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| 2 stadiums......... The other one, their hiding from us. |
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Location: Maplewood, MN | I like this idea. I can't count all of the times I have seen aquatic infested trailers leave the launch, especially when it comes to pleasure boaters. |
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| Tonka is notorious for the infested trailer pleasure boater leaving the lake peees me right off. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What? |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | sworrall - 1/10/2012 10:38 AM
What?
A lot of deep thinking going on in this thread. |
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| Enlighten us AIS professional. You must be bursting at the seems to set all of staight on how to slow the spread of AIS. |
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| I SINK VE MUST HAVE DA INSPECTIONS!! IT IS ZE ONLY VAY!! UND I SINK THE STATE IS THE ONLY WON WHO CAN CONTROL ZE ACTIONS OF SE DUMMY BOAT PEOPLE!! YA,, |
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| Is there zero probable cause that DJS fishes for "pike" before the muskie season opens? When DJS caught a muskie while fishing for "pike" did DJS change tactics so he would not catch any more muskies? Since DJS did not change tactics I think that there is probable cause to believe DJS fishes for muskies before the MN muskie season is open.
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| ???? Put the bottle down and go to bed. Or at least try to stay on topic. |
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