|
|
| Yes great analysis Kodiak. However what makes up 40% of business expenses with a guide?
Also 10K in equipment…are they fishing with gold reels and lures? Most have a bunch of lures already and thus rods and reels make up the bulk of the cost. They probably already have a good net, or they get in with someone like Frabill and get a net FREE. So say 8 St. Croix rods at $360 a piece (most expensive). That’s 2880. But wait they get 50% off as they have a deal with St. Croix.. So now that’s only $1440 for top of the line rods. 8 Avid reels at $230. That’s $1840. But wait they also get a break on those with Croix, but not 50%. They get them at cost which is around say $180. So say $1440. Gotta spool them with PP so add another $180 for 1500 yard spool. So that gets us to $3060 for brand new equipment. Lots of guides make their own leaders, but for sake of this let say they have to buy 50 flouro leaders at $10 a piece. Add another $500. Up to $3560. What makes up the rest?
Graphs should be figured into the 50K cost of the boat, as well as the other equipment that makes up the boat. But wait, there is no need to get a 50K boat especially for a newcomer. That could/should be dropped down to say 30K.
If someone goes at guiding the way Kodiak laid out of course they are set up for failure from the start. Most starting out will not get top of the line equipment, top of the line boat, nor a new truck all at once. Ever see the vehicles a lot of guides drive around in? While they may flip boats every year or two it sure seems more like they only flip their trucks every 10!
So while it was nice to see numbers to this by Kodiak, and made clearer what all goes into a small business expense, the numbers are a bit inflated. Not sure I know a guide that threw 100K at starting up a guide business. Kodiak’s theory is good, and again great for painting a clearer picture, but it’s not real world. Neither is thinking guides are booking 200 days a year consistently. Even some of the best guides are struggling to book enough clients to make a go, and that is while not having to worry about 90K in boat and truck payments.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32881
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Where's all this 50% off stuff coming from? There are literally thousands of fishing guides out there, literally a dime a dozen. OFM works with some of the top fishing company Pro Staff out there, and it's a very small number that get free anything OR for that matter, 50% off unless that discount is off suggested list, which is 20% above retail most of the time these days anyway. If they are a Promotional agent for a company like Frabill, then they are required to provide a number of days during the off season and during the season for the client at no charge.
And not every guide that applies gets considered.
Boat discounts for a FULL TIME guide? Most get at best a total discount on the boat at 15% off retail, and need to move the boat every year or every other to hang on to the program. Some may get as deep as 25% in total, but those deals are for competitive anglers and the promotional experts in the field. Once the boat is used for a season, that discount is gone in lot value, and the boat needs to be sold at the same time dealers have product out at rock bottom for not much more....and their specially priced rigs are new.
Head over to the Ice Show this weekend in St Paul, and you will run into a ton of guides and fishing pros working the booths for the big companies.
A contract that pays is even more rare, but there are some out there. A guide that closes a good promotional agreement that pays anything more than $1000 is doing very well indeed. That said, a living can be made in the business. Only a few are making what would be considered really good money, and they work their tail off 360 days a year.
The 'big move' for any guide is to go 'Pro' and search out sponsorship, access to the number of impressions it takes to get those contracts, and get into the competitive arena. The Muskie world's competitive arena is severely limited, so that's out as a career path. Not many companies are going to spend any money on a Pro fishing anything offered out there right now because the ROI will be close to zero due to extremely limited media coverage, and budgets are tighter than hoops on a rain barrel.
If a guide has a boat that is paid for, and a truck that is paid for, and charges $375 a day, which is the upper end in the Muskie world, at least 125 days will need to be booked to make a meager living. If one's spouse works and has family health and life insurance, that gets rid of that worry. I promise you the rest of the business expenses and out of pocket will cost at least 30% of the total, so that leaves $32,812.50 to treat as income. If the guide is the only bread winner, the wife's car better be paid for too, and insurance will shoot the whole thing down. if not, the guide adds $631.00 in pre-tax to the weekly budget. Apply the above math, and that's not very much money for the actual work hours, which average 10 a day.
That's why most guides have another source of income. When I was guiding full time, I also sold boats, trailers, and fishing gear to the retail world. The combined work kept me busy about 350 days a year, allowing me to take a vacation (unpaid) and take Holidays off to spend with the family. I worked almost every weekend in the soft water period, and 3 out of four at shows in the winter. I still do.
I moved into the industry a step at a time and now co-own a business a significant portion of which is dedicated to making sure the ROI our clients need out of their promotional staff is reached or exceeded. Those Guides/Pros who are well versed in the business world can do pretty well, but not while sitting on the couch at home on Saturday.
Any Guide or Pro out there who truly wants to make a decent living at the game should contact Pat Neu at the National professional Anglers Association. The membership is very much worth it, and many companies ask if the prospective promotional person IS a member before consideration is extended. The January NPAA conference is an absolute must; the very folks the Guide will be looking to for a contract are there offering instruction as to how to get it done. Joining and becoming very active will break one out of the very limited scope the Muskie world offers to the average guide.
That's probably a pretty good idea.
http://www.npaa.net
Lots of promotional folks approach OFM almost every day looking for help and sponsorship from our client base. We would be able to recommend more to our client base if they would work as hard at learning the business end of Guiding as they do at catching fish. I have three requests in my inbox this morning. All three lead with something that is close to:
" Good morning. I was hoping your company would sponsor me. I guide and fish some tournaments. I could put your company decal on my boat and use your products. Lots of people will see it. Thank you for your consideration." |
|
| |
|
| This 50% off comes from known facts. Check with St. Croix and see what they offer for guides (less off), and then someone that is on their pro-staff (more off). Yep you are usually required to work promotional events with many companies, but are paid in merchandise. Often times they also buy your meals at the shows, and pay for your lodging. St. Croix as well as other companies treat guides very well, and the guides are grateful. Other companies don’t give as good of discounts, but still give discounts to guides even if not on a pro-staff. Guides are also very grateful to these companies.
So yes guides have a requirement to help promote products for companies they are pro-staff for. However along with working those shows comes free advertisement for those guides. Once again very grateful for that.
In no way am I saying being a guide is easy, and that they make a killing. It’s in fact tough to be a guide. Let’s not inflate the earning and spending numbers though. I think both have been inflated here for most cases. A fisherman going guide does not go out and get all new equipment, boat, and truck. Also if they are married and do do this, and the wife doesn’t work, it’s probably not a smart thing to do as far as what’s best for the family’s health is concerned. Don’t think there are many married guides that started up without their significant other working. If so they probably were living pretty frugal to begin with which means they did not get top of the line equipment, boat, and truck. In fact they probably just added enough rod and reel set-ups to get by for clients, and bought very little extra stuff. Becoming a guide doesn’t make the angler decide they are rich and need to look like they are rich with that 20’ Ranger and Denali duelly pulling it. If it does, then that guide more than likely doesn’t make it very long.
Thinking guides guide 200+ days a year also isn’t being realistic. Some may and do, but most probably don’t.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | how is the 401K? |
|
| |
|
| 401K is a farce. Better off saving your money and investing in land or apt buildings. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 18
| I didn't pick the numbers, I used what other people posted on this thread.
If your going to book "200" trips a year, a huge majority of them will be with brand new folks. Those new folks are going to want to be in the best boat on the market, with the best electronics and the best gear available. You can disagree with me if you'd like about that point, but a big portion of paying 350-500 dollars for 6-10 hours of guided time is that you can use all the cool stuff out there and not have to pay for it yourself.
As far as the "endorsement" stuff, ask the guides here. The business's in the fishing community are not giving out free stuff, and there also not discounting things like everyone thinks. The people that are getting a free ride on rods, reels, lures, electronics, nets and the like are the top 2% of guys. Most have t.v. programs, or are feachered on the said programs.
Like I mentioned in my post It's not my intention to beat up on guys here. But far, far to many people think that because somone's title is President/CEO of such and such company that there obviously rich. And there are other's, which inspired the post that think that all of us business owners out there have some type of "inside track" when it comes to taxes, and "write offs" and ever other thing and because of that the "little" guy is getting screwed by business owners and they, have to make up the difference. The real truth of it is, and this peees people off because they've been lied to for most of there life, is that business owners and business's themselves pay the lion's share of all taxes collected in this country.
As the old adage goes, it's always greener on the other side..... Until you get to the other side and find out that, that person is getting screwed more then you are. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32881
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'This 50% off comes from known facts. Check with St. Croix and see what they offer for guides (less off), and then someone that is on their pro-staff (more off). Yep you are usually required to work promotional events with many companies, but are paid in merchandise. Often times they also buy your meals at the shows, and pay for your lodging. St. Croix as well as other companies treat guides very well, and the guides are grateful. Other companies don’t give as good of discounts, but still give discounts to guides even if not on a pro-staff. Guides are also very grateful to these companies. '
As I said, there's a big difference between 'being a guide' and acquiring a promotional contract. And there's darned few of them out there in comparison to the number of Guides who apply. if one is 'paid in merchandise' the pay has to be taxed so the product is earned, and if the person attends a show, they are working that day for no cash expenses paid or not. It's a tradeoff, and many pros have weighed the 'product in exchange for promotion and appearances' option carefully and do not accept the arrangement anymore unless the product is durable goods or electronics, or the appearances and product are part of a larger agreement.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 18
| sworrall,
I posted the endorsment portion for "Guest's" reply, I didn't notice that you pretty much covered how all of that works. My bad. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 7037
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | 50% off is still 50% you h ave to buy stuff for. I've ordered 5 reels at 50% off before, still hurts when you have to pay the coin. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 18
| --SUPER GUIDE SERVICE ON A BUDGET--
------THE CONDENSED VERSION--------
Goodwill boat(1981 16' Lund with 50hp Johnson): 4117.11 (Still on a Loan)
Farm truck(1978 Blazer, 'The old rust mobil'e): 1750.84 (Loan)
Fishing gear(2 cowgirls and a bulldog(magnum though)): 50.00 (Came from savings)
--INVESTMENT--
We have our $5917.95 investment.
--EXPENSES--
Business supplies, advertising, fuel, meals, travel, repairs, maintenance, licensing, business insurance, health insurance.
We Still had a steller year: $70,000 - expenses, $42,000 in revenue
Depreciation: $1183.59 per year. (Our flashy muskie magnet setup)
Truck payment for 60 months: $38.95 at 12.0% interest (Our banker wants to know why were financing this)
Boat payment for 60 months:$91.58 still at 12.0% interest
Interest Deduction: $392.76 per year
42,000-1183-392*.268=$10833.90 #*^@ our taxes doubled!
Loan repayment:$42000-10833.90-((91.58*12)+(38.95*12))=$29599.74
200 Guided trips, 6 hours per client on the water, 1 hour round trip drive time, 20 minute prep time on each trip.
1466.66 working hours equals $20.18 an hour.
Although with scenerio, I think the maintenance cost of your business might increase. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8773
| Kodiak_HL - 12/1/2011 4:44 PM
--SUPER GUIDE SERVICE ON A BUDGET--
------THE CONDENSED VERSION--------
[...]
Although with scenerio, I think the maintenance cost of your business might increase.
Maybe a little...  You may also have a bit of trouble booking repeat clients. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 402
Location: Eagle River, WI | Kodiak you just described 4-5 guides from my immediate area. Well done. |
|
| |
|
|
Why does anybody care what a guide owns, how much he charges or how they make it?
If you want to pay what they charge, pay it. If you don't, then don't.
Is it any bodies business how they come out at the end of the year, or how much money they have, or if they have another job??
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2011
| How do you have one million dollars in the bank as a muskie guide? most on this board know................... Start with two million!  |
|
| |
|
Location: Hayward WI | Wow, winternet set in early this season |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8773
| Guest - 12/2/2011 1:11 PM
Why does anybody care what a guide owns, how much he charges or how they make it?
If you want to pay what they charge, pay it. If you don't, then don't.
Is it any bodies business how they come out at the end of the year, or how much money they have, or if they have another job??
JS
It's nobody's business what ANYBODY makes. But there's a common misconception that guides get all their gear for free, they get huge discounts on boats and trucks, and then they can just write off every expense, and that somehow means they don't actually have to pay for it. And then people look at the $350/day and think "wow, I wish I made $350/day, that guy must be rich!!"
All of that translates somehow into the conclusion that guides are a ripoff.
No, it's nobody's business what they make, but common sense and a bit of knowledge about what it's really like for someone who guides might just change a few minds. Those who wouldn't hire a guide before because they didn't want to subsidize a rich person, just might do it now, and that benefits everyone. Those who had visions of sugarplums dancing in their heads thinking they were going to go out there and guide and make a great living getting paid to fish could use a good dose of reality before they blow their live savings instead of after.
It was my hope that some more of the former guides would have popped in and told the real story. A good guide is not in it for the money. A good guide is in it because they love it. |
|
| |
|
|
EA you are missing my point, mainly because the post before mine was deleted.
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Guest - 12/2/2011 1:23 PM
EA you are missing my point, mainly because the post before mine was deleted.
JS
I missed it as well. I was unaware you were referencing the recently deleted post, thought you were generalizing the entire thread. My apologies. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8773
| Okay, so I am missing your point. What IS your point, John? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | esoxaddict - 12/2/2011 1:28 PM
Okay, so I am missing your point. What IS your point, John?
I believe someone called out Sondag for owning a couple of boats and/or trucks and wondered how he afforded it, and JS was replying to that one. |
|
| |
|
| Most do it because they love being on the water and fishing. Haven't you seen the guides who've only fish a system a few years (tops) then start guiding? Or maybe they already have "Mommy and Daddy's" money and don't need the income to survive but do it to support their "habit". For the most part lots of guides just love the sport and find a way to make it work. Most of the guides I've fished with have been fantastic and it's just a way of life for them which I respect. It's definitely not an easy business chasing Muskies but it sure is addicting and lots of fun! I give it up to the guides who really have put their time in fishing a lake, system or area and not jumping into it quickly after only a few seasons. It's not money making business but it's always important to do what you love in life and the guides I've fished with really love it! |
|
| |
|
|
My point is when people bring up a particular guide, which happened, and start saying this or that about them on the internet it's time to say "it's none of your business."
JS |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8773
| Ahhh. Lots of that going around these days. Maybe there should be an OWS movement for muskie fishing? You know, for the 1 in 100 who have tried to make a decent living at it and actually have. |
|
| |
|
| Guest - 12/2/2011 1:11 PM
Why does anybody care what a guide owns, how much he charges or how they make it?
If you want to pay what they charge, pay it. If you don't, then don't.
Is it any bodies business how they come out at the end of the year, or how much money they have, or if they have another job??
JS
I can't believe I'm about to agree with Mr. John Skarie, esq., but here goes....
It's called JEALOUSY. Some people are jealous that others make a living fishing, or that they MAY get discounts on their equipment. Some people don't like that guides fish a public resource to make their income. Otherwise why would anybody care? Nobody gets their tightie-whities in a bundle when the local builder buys a new work truck.
KODIAK: What you've said is gospel though some still won't get it. But I've got to know....where did you find a 78 Blazer that's still running!?
A huge point that has been overlooked in this entire discussion is the actual gross income of the guides. $70,000 is being tossed around quite freely. How many guides in the Midwest actually work 200 days a year? I'll bet you can count the number on one hand. Most "full-timers" can't book a hundred days a year....so why don't we take that $70,000 figure and cut it in half for future discussion?
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8773
| OHN, that $70k number was tossed out as a dream scenario, i.e. best possible year ever. We all know that in order to do that you'd pretty much have to start South in the Spring, move North for the summer, and then head South again in the fall. It ain't gonna happen anywhere where you can only guide June-November. 6 days a week in N/WI puts you at 150 for the year if your booked solid and nobody cancels. I'd bet the average guide does 120 days tops. Even at $400/day that's only $48,000 gross. Which brings me to the point I tried to make earlier. Self employed at $48k gross ain't buyin' you much of a life. |
|
| |
|
| Paying for a person to put you on fish is by far the best way to get yourself into a larger sized fish unless you happen to have horse shoes stuffed up your behind.
Pay the Money. Save the hours. And STFU if you want to whine about it.
Not everyone can afford what it takes to be a guide.
Lord knows I wouldn't be one if you paid me.
Simps!
lol. |
|
| |
