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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Consider the entire water column average temperature range and where the DO problem is the largest.
Obviously, 80 degree water is not fatal to Muskies, it takes several stressors to cause delayed or immediate mortality. And no, you won't kill every one CPR'ed in 82 degree water, but you WILL kill 'too many' based upon how long it takes a Muskie to get to legal size in the first place and how many there are in total in any given waterbody. Obviously, Bass (and Bass populations) are far more tolerant to middle 80's than muskies. Reality indicates that clearly when considering permitting tournaments, survival of the fish indicated by successful release rates, etc.
No one is talking about 87 to 90 Plus degree water. I personally have never seen that where I fish Bass...OR muskies, and if I did, I'd not fish either. If water temps got much higher than that, fish would die wholesale with no angling pressure. Doesn't happen up here.
Population density, recruitment, water quality, competition, forage base and much more enter into the debate with Bass and muskies.
Bass have a much higher tolerance to catch and release in water temps at 80 to 82 degrees than Muskies and Walleyes, and fisheries biologists permit tournaments accordingly. I don't fish any eutrophic (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eutrophic) waters up here where DO is below the tolerance during the year and as a result, they perhaps shouldn't be fished during algae blooms and cycles and high temps.
Couple references:
http://www.bassmaster.com/news/new-law-allows-culling-wisconsin
http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/pubs/bassplan.pdf
Texas:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1577/1548-8675%281999%29019%3...
The WIDNR estimated before the new 'culling allowed' rule after studying events that tournament handled bass mortality averaged 5%. Previous estimates were at 25%. Advances in weigh in site technology and better handling because of better livewells and better overall handling dropped the mortality rate. We see similar estimates elsewhere, even in Southern waters.
Estimates in Texas events reflected in the link provided are at less than 2% for immediately released fish...the AIM CRR format so to speak.
Estimated post capture mortality for muskies is higher. Even in cool waters.
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | MuskyStalker - 7/26/2011 11:12 PM
I would have serious reservations in fishing on a lake like Tomahawk when the surface temps were 82. Fish in that system would not be acclimated and I'm sure that they would be stressed. I also would not fish Cave Run or Shelbyville because of low DO and heat.
When we fish the Fox Chain, fish are coming out of 3'-10' of weedy water, with temps anywhere from 78-83. These fish are acclimated. They seek out this water.
You don't think the muskie in Cave Run, Shelbyville, or Lake Tomahawk seek out water that is 3'-10'... I bet they do, they must be acclimated to the hot water so does that makes them okay to target when its hot?
The fish on Cave Run or Shelbyville are used to way hotter water than these Fox Chain fish, so is it okay to target them in 90 degree water if we see a lot of baitfish, birds, and wildlife activity in the area? These are signs of healthy water that the fish can properly recover in after a battle, right?
MuskyStalker - 7/26/2011 11:12 PM
They are aggressive and feisty and release well. If I saw hard releases I would think differently, but I just don't. That's not to say there isn't stress or even delayed mortality, but these are present in a percentage of all releases, regardless of temps.
The Chain muskie are no super fish, they aren't going to survive any better with low DO levels than other muskie. Of course they are aggressive and active when its hot, as water the temperature rises so does the fishes metabolism. They must eat more to survive when water temps are high, hence the reason why you are catching so many.
MuskyStalker - 7/26/2011 11:12 PM
Being out 2-4 days a week (always early mornings in summer) I pay attention to the water. I notice changes, how the wildlife reacts. I see a lot of fish activity, lot's of baitfish moving, lot's of follows...birds, everything points to healthy water.
LOL, bird sightings are a sign that it's okay to musky fish?
And the whole point of not fishing when there are low DO levels is because fish have a harder time recovering after a release. Sure, they may give a good tail kick and swim off but its the recovery stage that does them in. The muskies can survive just fine in hot water, it's the whole part of hooking them through the mouth, pulling them in with a line as they fight for their life, netting them, and most likely in your case taking them out for a picture that causes the harm. They are stressed out after a battle, they have a build up of lactic acid, and need a sufficient amount of DO to recover. I really don't see how you think you are right, pretty much everyone on here agrees the stopping point is 80, but you insist that on "your" water it's 85. Next thing we know it will be 85 everywhere, then 90, because the fish are "acclimated to hot water on this system". |
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Posts: 317
| well then, you might as well quit fishing. I mean, you'll fish in 78 degree water but not? Please... |
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| "Estimated post capture mortality for muskies is higher. Even in cool waters."
Please share, what is the estimated mortality for muskies? I wouldn't have a problem fishing for muskies at 2 or even 4% mortality rate. Heck, birth control is said to only be 99% effective and I'm scoring a lot more often in that category than I am catching muskies! In other words, it's a risk I'd be willing to take. |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Depends on which study and what the parameters were. It's been estimated that about 5% to as high as 10% of the muskies captured using average angling techniques and average release skills will perish.
An excellent recent study by Sean Landsman showed zero mortality. He did acknowledge that zero is very unlikely to be the average.
That number would go up if only multiple treble soft plastic lures were used in the capture of the fish, for example, and less than what we consider average CPR care is taken in releasing the fish. We've come a very long way since the 80's. Water temps in that study were not a factor, from what I could see.
The accepted number is in the 4 to 5% range overall, it seems. That's down from 30% in the past, but those studies were in laboratory, and Sean Landsman's was not.
I've seen estimates at 10% as well, but in talking with biologists, it seems most tend to land in the middle ground of the single numbers, which is good if we are to accept the zero stocking and somewhat low NR on many designated trophy waters in WI right now.
SO you think...hmm. 5% isn't bad at all. Just for the math's sake--Right now we have 136 people online here. If 5% took a deep hook and perished, we'd lose nearly half a dozen. Increase stress by adding extreme heat, and we'd lose a few more.
And so on.
I've killed a few over the years I watched die, even using what would be considered excellent release techniques. Deep hooked and hurt during the battle, fish that seem to just expire for almost no reason, and even one that jumped when it hit a Topper Stopper on a rock bar on the left in the narrows on the way from Sioux Narrows proper to Fire Island, and broke it's back landing on a rock.
l take the position we DO kill fish. Not 'lots', but some, and if the population of muskie anglers keeps growing as fast as it has, and new muskie waters as slow, we may have a bit of a problem on highly pressured waters when intentional harvest is added in to the equation and management using stocking to keep numbers up lessens due to budget restraints and worse.
Read everything you can on the big picture, and make your own decision. I'm off the water until it cools down, except for bluegills and bass, which I will, for the most part....'murder' and eat, and that with great anticipation in the process.  |
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| To be clear, you are claiming a 5% mortality rate for immediately released fish? I'm talking about zero out of water time. |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | s,
I'm not 'claiming' anything. Read the data yourself, and make your own decisions. I made mine, justified why I believe what I do when questioned, and provided information as to where to find the info that convinced me, plus offered personal experience. Never said a thing about 100% in the water release.
Yes, I believe there will be some post capture mortality in muskies even using in water release. I described why I believe that already.
If what's been said here is not complete enough, read the vast amount of material out there and make your own decisions. That said, it never was assumed to be a zero sum game. Everyone who fishes muskies knows there will be some post CPR mortality; if you are asking only about what the average is all season long, it's what it is and all we can do is be careful in handling the fish.
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | sworrall - 7/27/2011 9:38 PM
If what's been said not complete enough, read the material out there and make your own decisions.
That is hard for many, if not most. |
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