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It's been over 10 years since I was a co-chair of the MMA, now the MMPA.
I'm not speaking for any of them or even know what they are planning to do.
Merely trying to explain the history of pike management in MN and how it started.
The muskie anglers in MN didn't get riled up until the "lift the ban on Cass" movement started. Unfortunately that took the wind out of the sails regarding pike management and shifted the focus to muskie anglers vs. spearers
JS
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Posts: 100
Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | Some of you remember this. To actually portrait this to the public was pretty desperate. How do you deal with this kind of thinking?
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This is a classic example of politics defeating 'form and function' using back door legislation to get it done. The MDAA executed an effective PR campaign,pocketed a few politicians in the process, and what MN has now is the result. The original ban was acquired in pretty much the same manner, but without all the falderal and with the support of the DNR fisheries folks. Shows what a power shift move to gain public support can do, and hang the 'facts'.The average guy can't figure it all out anyway and hard reality is most folks could care less either way.
If one pushes one's chair back, and opens up one's eyes completely, it's easy to see manipulative behavior on both sides of the issue. It's EXTREMELY effective and helpful to exaggerate, as it's rule one in a political conflict (and war) to immediately and JUST within the AVERAGE person's ability to discern between total bull and reality-- demonize your opponent, then work at the center out to the edges of the issue if that campaign doesn't backfire. If it does, do it again, only more believable
That isn't 'scorched earth', that's standard politics as usual.
Two responses are effective, and one needs to ally oneself with an organization to take charge of executing one or the other, because two identities or more are necessary to execute. The truth is a powerful weapon if, as Ben Kenobi said, one is successful at changing perception with the presentation and your 'version' of the truth wins the day. Attack ads and published statements take a close second or should be considered first, depending on YOUR perceptions. That presentation should dovetail the presentation of 'the truth', supplement it, and create severe doubt for any average guy that your opponent is fighting fair and deserves any support at all, while offering an alternative that is believable, seems responsible, and is something one can hang on to as 'truth' once removed forcibly from 'the other side'..
Then hit 'em again with the 'truth'. And again. And again.
That's why it's so hard to separate special interest money and politicians.
Both sides have misrepresented the 'facts', sensationalizing their opponents position. One side just did it better.
I think the viewpoint presented that shows this clearly might be a good place to start to find what an acceptable 'truth' might be. (That was essentially Sled's argument...read it in the context you see here, maybe, that it's easy to demonize, be careful what you wish for as you may just get it...)
And you still might lose.
Fisheries management belongs in the hands of the fisheries professionals, and both sides are guilty of manipulating that process changing 'public perception' using a virtual Mickey Mantle Louisville Slugger. |
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Posts: 225
Location: Nordeast Minneapolis | ...Wow. What the heck?! First of all, does that mean there are 3,500 stocked musky lakes in this state? That's a lot of Lake X's!!! |
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Posts: 100
Location: Bemidji/Cass Lake | The ad really didnt do any good in my opinion except make the spearing faction look bad. A person that doesn't even fish can see the attempted manipulation at work. Makes them look desperate.
Steve W is correct all the way. Deceit is an effect tool for those willing to use it. |
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | It's a sad thing, for sure, but let's be honest. Spearing pike has been a tradition for far longer than muskie fishing in Minnesota. Most of the many great muskie lakes in Minnesota didn't even hit the radar until the early 2000's. Did the MDAA play dirty pool aka general politics to get the deal signed? Absolutely. But I wonder if there couldn't have been a different approach from muskie anglers?
I don't know everything about Bob Strand. I only fish MN lakes maybe 5 times a year, so I don't have a 100% accurate portrayal of all the "pressure" these lakes get. Those are my disclaimers. But let's call a spade a spade. I have never seen a larger group of elitists than the Minnesota muskie fishermen. You beg us to sign your petition to get lakes stocked at the Expo, and then trash out-of staters in the same breath. You trash Wisconsin fisheries in general. You trash Illinois and Iowa and claim to be better than Canada. You trash spearfishermen. You trash walleye fishermen...even though that's what a large percentage of you were...and then you want their support.
Try eating a slice of humble pie once and appreciate what you have. In many respects, Wisconsin didn't. And we've been paying the price for years.
Edit: This is not all Minnesota guys. I've fished with and befriended many over the years. Some truly great people in Minnesota.
Edited by Moltisanti 7/25/2011 4:15 PM
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Posts: 3158
| I really dont belive 'heritage/tradition' enters into it,,Pick up an American history book and how much history revolves around Buffalo hunting..buffalo camps became towns that became cities but how many western states allow buffalo hunting or restricted buffalo today because the resource cant take it.
Edited by happy hooker 7/25/2011 4:21 PM
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | Sled,
You are right in that spearing and hunting are similar. You are right that there is no "release" in spearing and it is indeed a pure "kill" sport much like hunting. But fishling is much different. One can catch the same fish many times, but one cannot shoot a deer or spear a fish more than once.
For your information, I have shot over 60 deer in my life and also have caught more than a hundred Northern Pike over 40 inches. (I think a 40 inch Pike is a trophy.) The big difference is every one of those big Northerns were released alive while every deer died. In fact, I have never killed a trophy fish of any species. (I've also caught many trophy class Walleyes and Bass). Hunting and fishing are simply apples and oranges. But hunting and spearing are alike. You are correct there.
Sorry, but your argument makes the case for banning spearing altogther. The fact that spearing is a pure "kill" sport does not help its cause in any way, shape or form.
I think you need much better arguments. Your "spearing is a tradition" and "hunting and spearing are alike" arguments are not so good. |
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Saying spearing should be banned because you kill the fish doesnt' make any more sense than to say hunting should be banned because you kill animals.
Seriously, that is ridiculous.
The method of killing is irrelevant. It doesn't matter how a pike dies, it isn't more noble to angle one for the pan than to spear one.
Managing pike means having size limits, not just bag limits. This is where spearers get testy. The ones that are pushing want no regs in regards to spearing. They want no slots, or to be exempt from them if they spear.
I have no problem with spearing, but if you can't kill a 30" pike with a hook and line than you shouldn't be able to kill it with a spear either.
We all have the opportunity to choose how we bag our fish; angle, spear, tip-up etc.
There is no discrimination with size limits. There are areas in MN where you can't use motors, drive ATVs, can only bow-hunt or can only use single hooks. These rules apply to us all, and we can all choose where and how we fish under the same laws.
This notion that spearer are being discriminated against is false, and people need to stop caving into that idea.
There are also people that need to stop sitting on a high horse and calling for a ban on spearing while they continue to fish with other methods that also kill fish.
JS |
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| happy hooker - 7/25/2011 4:17 PM
I really dont belive 'heritage/tradition' enters into it,,Pick up an American history book and how much history revolves around Buffalo hunting..buffalo camps became towns that became cities but how many western states allow buffalo hunting or restricted buffalo today because the resource cant take it.
You could start buffalo hatcheries...LOL |
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| no. no matter how effective it is, the ends does not justify the means. integrity matters. |
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| I love the Argument that Spearing Pike has been around for so long so lets continue to cater to it thats bull@#$%! The truth of the matter is that Muskie fishing is on the rise across the country because of proper lake management. Something this spearing community could really care less about! Its just like if you have a refuge with giant bucks in it, they are in there because they don't get killed by horn hunters! Open that refuge up to the public for hunting a few years and guess what the BIG BUCKS ARE GONE! Same is true about giant pike. Its the same group of greedy individuals that want to be able to brag about that giant "usually 13-20lb" pike they speared. It literally has nothing to do with revenue generated for a community! ITS STRAIGHT UP GREED! I will be contacting the DNR and legislators and the governors office to get this law reversed or to try and adopt special legislation in years to come for the implementation of very strice slots.. Like the 26-44" slot... As a group we have alot of power when it comes to this stuff. There are many many more muskie anglers then pike spearers so lets work together and keep these lakes true trophy caliber lakes.. |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/integrity/
That's why politicians since Abe have been anointed by the general public through proxy with plausible deniability.
Integrity doesn't always equate with morality, decency. and fair play. See especially the section on Moral Purpose.
And, the term is redefined as mores are.
Amazing.
And see discussion number 8. Integrity in relation to Social and Political Conditions.
The truly effective politicians who have redefined (improved?) the human condition over our history as the United States of America did what it took to get the job done. Integrity, as defined in your condition of ends not justifying means, is a highly subjective term.
THAT horse is a long way from the ground.
Then see number 8 in the discussion.
Interesting. As we strive for integrity, all we believe is right can be lost forever.
In politics and war, there is always a crapload of collateral damage.
Ben Kenobi lives.
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| Integrity doesn't always equate with morality, decency. and fair play....Integrity, as defined in your condition of ends not justifying means, is a highly subjective. THAT horse is a long way from the ground. of course it's subjective.
using deceit to get what you want doesn't mean you win. it means you've become a liar. you can dress it up pretty and call it "politics" but it still smells like #*#* to me. and once you take that step, the next step and the one after are soooo much easier until one day you find yourself writing "A Million Little Pieces" and justifying it as a matter of moral relativism.
finding a way to influence others to your point of view without deception is possible, and honorable. for some of us that still matters, and it doesn't preclude taking aggressive steps.
the leaders of the MN Muskie/Pike Alliance and other leading angling advocates attempted to work with politicians, the DNR, and the MDAA to find some compromise. they did so earnestly and honestly while the MDAA lied to them and lied to the public to get their way at any cost. when people discover they've been deceived, the push-back is often fierce. i hope they continue their efforts in an honest way, and i believe it will eventually change this outcome. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | interesting discussion while i was traveling around the globe ... a couple thoughts:
sworrall = spot-on .... we are well on our way to begging someone to regulate ourselves out of a sport
moltisanti = eloquent and to the point (wish i could be as accurate) ... absolutely fantastic assesment of the situation
herbb - did you catch all thos pike on cj spinners? you're my hero man!!!! i just giggle through the rest ...
lambo = indeed the tallest midget in any argument ... is the thesaurus and app? or do you have it built into your pc?
skarie - did you just do a 180? ... holy crap, keep a postion, you flip-flop so much you look like me watchin' a packer vs. viking game ... the last name is fitting :0)
au revoir boys and girls ... have a great sleep.
edit:
- oops, nobody answered me about how come there's only 49 members of the minnesota musky and pike alliance since it's been so active since the early 90's??
Edited by jonnysled 7/25/2011 8:41 PM
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| alot of the musky clubs and groups belonging to the MMPA hold only one membership spot, sled. you are a piece of work. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 7/25/2011 8:52 PM
alot of the musky clubs and groups belonging to the MMPA hold only one membership spot, sled. you are a piece of work.
thanks ... that website gets a lot of traffice eh?? ... it's hard to keep up!
they once had 27 users online at the same friggin' time!!!!!!!
Edited by jonnysled 7/25/2011 8:58 PM
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Posts: 454
| Moltisanti-
You know I love you, but to call MN muskie anglers elitist is a little far fetched. I know you aren't referring to me, but just because there are is a small group of outspoken members in the muskie community who portray "elitism", doesn't mean that is how the majority feels or acts.
I have never been spearing, that is my disclaimer. Many believe that Spearing is "cheating", and many spearers argue the talent it takes to be successful in the sport. Ultimately, my belief is that the release of a fish does not exist in the sport of spearing. I believe in the catch and release of all trophy sized fish, regardless of species. I know not everyone feels this way, and I also know that it is the right of others to keep legal fish if they so choose.
What needs to be understood by the masses is the effect spearing and harvesting of any large fish can have on the overall population of a fishery. We all have the legal right to keep 48" muskie in our state. So, if 50 anglers choose to keep 48" or larger legal fish out of lake Miltona this summer, will that impact the muskie population? Whose responsibility is it to look out for the resource? Just because it is legal does not mean that it is what is in the best interest of our fisheries.
The same can be said for the trophy pike population in cass. Just because it is legal to harvest these fish does not mean that it won't negatively impact the overall population for years to come.
I am not a fish biologist, nor do I claim to be, but I trust the educated professionals, our DNR leaders, to determine laws and regulations to protect our resources. I don't think that the recent legislation did what was in the best interest of our fisheries here in MN. This is not a MDAA vs. Muskie Angler battle right now. I am concerned for our fisheries as I have no optimism about what could happen next. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I didn't say to 'lie', I suggested to present our 'truth' in a completely different manner. Your perception of what the Dark House folks did was that it was 'dishonest'. Theirs isn't, they feel the 'public' was deceived by Muskie anglers and used 'selective facts' to try to influence the public to believe their version of the truth, and they won this round. I believe in one hand you said you understand a 'scorched earth' approach now, and on the other condemned the concept.
Perhaps you missed the Ben Kenobi references. Don't tell me you didn't see Star Wars...
Our truth is based on OUR perception, theirs on what THEY believe. What's 'real' isn't either if one belongs to neither group and isn't invested in fighting for Cass to be a trophy pike fishery/protected muskie fishery or a spearing destination; the lake won't empty if it's either or neither, and I didn't hear the 'big pike will make this a destination and it needs to be protected into the future' argument until recently. I believe it was JS who made the point this isn't about Muskies. I've heard the 'other' justification for the ban, and it had nothing at all to do with creating a trophy pike water. Did WE fall for the above advertisement too?
You are, however, following the path described exactly... Demonize your opponent. Problem is, this is the wrong audience.
The actual fight is probably neither. It's the DNR who should make the decision based upon their long range plan for that waterbody, and they did so on Cass, albeit influenced by the Muskie guys. Bad idea to have politicians run the fisheries department, and ridiculous that enough influence can be exercised to get the law changed so the DNR is unable to do the job they were assigned to do. The battle needs to be directed there...don't you think?
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| I would argue that this is the main fact behind all of these arguments. The bottom line is that the DNR put these regulations in place to create a trophy pike fishery and now without their approval it is being removed. Although I would agree that sometimes this message is lost in all of the conversation. Bottom line is that most Muskie fisherman are scared because we know there are a lot of people out there (for ignorance or vengeance) that will chuck a spear at a Muskie and that will undoubtably hurt the fishery. We are even more concerned that special interest groups can get in the right back pocket and push their agenda. Not knowing where his will lead is the icing on the cake for my concern. |
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Sled;
180? No idea what you are tallking about.
Guess you don't really read what I type.
JS |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Guest - 7/25/2011 11:11 AM
It's been over 10 years since I was a co-chair of the MMA, now the MMPA.
I'm not speaking for any of them or even know what they are planning to do.
Merely trying to explain the history of pike management in MN and how it started.
The muskie anglers in MN didn't get riled up until the "lift the ban on Cass" movement started. Unfortunately that took the wind out of the sails regarding pike management and shifted the focus to muskie anglers vs. spearers
JS
last time you told me the musky guys have been grassroots involved since the early 1990's ...
i'm confused ... and so, it seems are you. |
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The MMA was started years after the pike special regs were put into place on selected lakes.
The MMA had nothing to do with it. I never claimed they did in the begining. You seemed to think I was speaking on behalf of the MMPA, or it's members and I stated I wasn't, haven't been actively involved with them for years.
It's not confusing, it's really pretty simple. Involvement in pike management changes started before the MMA did.
So that is my "flip-flop"?
You really seem intent on trying to find things in my posts so you can make fun of me rather than taking anything out of them.
JS
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Tony-
I knew that post was going to come off a little harsh, and you know I was not talking about all Minnesota muskie guys in general. I'm referring to the small, but very vocal group of anglers that consistently complain about every single thing that may or may not affect a tiny fraction of their muskie fishery...or pike in this case.
Be aware of it, because those folks DO NOT represent you. If you see a greenhorn muskie angler bringing a 49 incher into Mase's to get it mounted, I don't think it's elitist to try to educate him about the benefits of catch and release. It's the right thing to do for the fishery. That's not what this is about. You know who I'm talking about. "Out of state guides are ruining my lake." "Everyone is coming to Minnesota and my lake isn't what it used to be." "There's too much pressure on Big D/Miltona/Mille Lacs/whatever." Pressure? They'd spend one hour on Tonka and their head would explode. "Tom Gelb mounted a 51 pounder two years ago...what an great person!" And on and on and on they go about something or something ruining a fishery.
In the process, that fraction of anglers has made enemies of walleye fishermen, "out-of-staters," "city guys," and spearfishermen. Probably bald eagles and otters at some point, too. Yep, if spearers jab a muskie out of season, it should be punished in accordance with the law. But now it's to the point where they are not going to back down to the MDAA over regulations on one lake...for pike? They pushed too far, peeed on a bee's nest and it backfired big time. I can't think of a worse outcome than legislature (especially Minnesota's) making fisheries management decisions.
Think about it, man. There is a huge difference between caring for the resource and educating whoever you can accordingly, practicing what you preach....and just being intolerant of what some consider a good time. Especially when it doesn't even relate to muskie fishing. |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'You really seem intent on trying to find things in my posts so you can make fun of me rather than taking anything out of them. '
Pot, meet kettle.
And Moltisanti made a couple points that bear consideration. |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | Sled,
I did catch a good number of those on CJs, but not all. I have found CJs to be extremely affective for big Pike on Mille Lacs, Leech, and Minnetonka. However, in-line bucktails seem to work better on LOTW, Eagle, and Cass. Spoons are usually best on Bebee, Waconia, Mississippi and St. Croix rivers, and some of the other metro lakes such as Forest, Medicine, and Fish. I have a few lakes where big Rad Dogs seem to be best too. I have no idea why either. |
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Posts: 3158
| Herb
CJ''s and Raddogs rock but I pinch down the barbs on all mine and look down on people who dont do the same thing  |
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| - oops, nobody answered me about how come there's only 49 members of the minnesota musky and pike alliance since it's been so active since the early 90's??
Not sure who told you there were 49 members? |
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