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CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I don’t think the big issues at hand is just “warm” or “hot” water temps. I believe it’s the fact that you just got done really, really stressing a fish out, and then try releasing it in warm water. Take the above statement about minnows and suckers staying alive for example. Unhooked suckers will live several days in the fall in a livewell. However, hook one of those suckers, and expect it to live the same amount of time as an unhooked one I can bet you will be unhappy most of the time. That’s in cool/cold water. Heck even some unhooked suckers tend to croak in a livewell before days end of day one. Why? It’s the stress. Some handle it better than others. Now throw in the equation of warmer water where it is known to increase stress and the probability of death increases. Usually, but not always, as water temps go up DO goes down. Look at the two data sheets I supplied earlier. Throw in perhaps a fairly calm day with very little waves (more waves could increase DO I believe) and that warm water now becomes more stagnant. We are stressing fish no matter when we catch them. However, we can take precautions in how much stress is forced onto a fish (netting, unhooking, taking pictures, accidently dropping, ripping the skin under the gill plates, etc…), and the less we do the better. So as the water warms, we should always think about how much we should handle that fish. Water releases *could be the least stressful, and thus would be preferred during “warm” water if you are out fishing. Others choose not to fish. I would challenge those that quit fishing for musky, but target other species. Why acceptable for those fish? I heard bass can handle higher water temps, but that I believe is when they are not being stressed. Unless you are keeping the fish to eat I think it is wrong to accuse others of fishing in high temps for one fish, and it’s ok for you to fish for others. Perhaps the Bass crowd would be unhappy to hear you are fishing for bass in 80°+ water. You should take into account the health of all fish, and not just those that you have the most “feelings” for. I think there was a point a number was needed to make a blanket statement of when not to fish. It may be conservative, or heck it may even be not conservative enough. What if a study determined that mortality of a C&R fish quadrupled when the water temps hit 75°. Some would quite fishing at shy of 75°, but guaranteed others would keep fishing beyond regardless of a studies results. Some care about fisheries, and some think it’s an unlimited resource that THEY don’t need to worry about. Some are in between. *I say could as sometimes the part of trying to remove hooks can be time consuming. The longer it takes to remove the hooks, the more stress you are adding. The number one way to reduce stress in warm/hot water would be to simply not target them. | ||
| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | ToddM - 7/15/2010 2:56 PM They don't know what temperature it is just as they could not tell how overstressed they may become during an angling battle with hot water temps and lower oxygen levels. They can feel temperature differences but it means little when they can't live in their comfort zone. Yes, people stop fishing for muskies when the water hits 80. I do, I go north or fish for something else. Simple as that. As stated earlier, it's all in what you really care about. Here is a story, told to me first hand accounts by both parties. I will not name names or the lake. The angler told me of a trip when they caught an incredible amount of fish, high water temps, fish stacked at a certain depth. I heard through the grapevine then asked the guide who seen the floaters afterwards. The fish seen were over 10% of what was told to me by the person who caught them. Since all dead fish don't float that total could have been alot higher. Were they using a famous all metal "plug"?? | ||
| Sam Ubl |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | I don't stop fishing... Then what? And Doug, for someone with as many fish pictures as you... There's nothing wrong with a picture. I think the real question is why are the big tough muskies such Pu****? If a fish dies, it dies. I had my first musky die on my this season and it beat me up the whole night - didn't even have fun after that and ended up losing the excitement for the one I caught... I went home, thought about it some more and decided, who knows how many musky I've caught and this is the first time I had one die on me - not bad. It ate a Magdawg completely, only leader sticking out of its mouth. It wasn't the brief and careful surgery cutting the O-rings and carefully removing the hooks that killed her, it was the fight to the boat with that thing all the way down and the other reason was the water temp being so high. You might aswell not bowhunt the rut, bucks are more susceptible to being killed then... | ||
| CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Since I brought up DO, here is a good link for those interested in learning about it. http://www.waterontheweb.org/under/waterquality/oxygen.html Sam the difference with bowhunting the rut is we WANT to KILL the deer. We don’t want musky dead. The points brought up about rubber killing fish are also valid and I know some that have stopped using them because of it. Yes, there are people that quit using rubber due to them killing too many fish. The bigger the fish, the more stressed they get. Think about a 150 lb man or women versus say a 400 lb person. Lets assume both are out of shape. I do believe the 400 lb person is more susceptible to stress especially when exertion occurs. | ||
| Sam Ubl |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | CiscoKid - 7/15/2010 3:34 PM Sam the difference with bowhunting the rut is we WANT to KILL the deer. We don’t want musky dead. Touche`, Travis, point taken. | ||
| CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | What is interesting in what I read on DO levels is that it is lower at night. Soooooooooo, if those that fish during warm water times only do it at night, are we really doing it under “better” conditions? Sure the water may be a bit cooler, but on the flip side the DO levels are lower. That is if DO levels are important to fish… Splitting hairs perhaps if the DO levels are only dropping several decimal points and still above the 4-5 range. | ||
| Mr Musky |
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Posts: 999 | There was an article in Musky Hunter years back on dissolved oxygen level readings and finding fish. By having a dissolved oxygen measuring device you could find areas that will hold more fish this time of year. For instance windblown areas or incoming streams,rivers, or creeks. But I do agree that over 80 degree water temps are too warm for ski's. Edited by Mr Musky 7/15/2010 4:28 PM | ||
| john skarie |
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Posts: 221 Location: Detroint Lakes, MN | So I guess Rod and Dan are fisheries biologists with an agenda?? That's cool with me as I'm pretty sure the agenda involves creating a great muskie fishery in MN and then also sustaining it. The deer analogy brings up an interesting point to me. I was always raised that you only take "clean" shots at deer. It was the ethical and sportsmanlike thing to do. Yah we are all out to kill deer, but there are acceptable and unacceptable practices among hunters. I guess that's how I view muskies. I want to aware of my impact on a fish that I plan on fishing for the rest of my life. So why not try to have as little impact on the resource you want to continue to utilize? It's about respect and restraint in your pursuit. In hot water periods I either won't fish for muskies, or go barbless only with water release. I guess I view that as being along the same lines as why I won't gut shoot a deer if I can help it. JS Edited by john skarie 7/15/2010 6:27 PM | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8774 | lecture me - 7/15/2010 10:48 AM drives some people crazy to see folks fishing for Musky in warm temps... drives some people to be lectured on every topic in musky fishing... for you super ethicists who never ever even scratch a fish with your 8/0 hooks and 100lb test, do you tailgate on the highway or drive 15 mph over the limit? (of course) That puts other HUMAN BEINGS at increased danger to being killed or injured by you refined philosophers. how bout I lecture you about that? you wouldn't listen or change your habits so layoff the lectures. The more replies I read like yours, the more I think I like muskies more than I like people... | ||
| Fish and Whistle |
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Posts: 462 Location: Antioch, IL | One poster above says that: Fish and Whistle - 7/14/2010 10:27 PM At the magic number of 80 degrees the oxygen levels begin to dramatically decrease (if you haven't noticed before, water has all kinds of "set" temperatures that it does amazing things...like freezing, boiling and evaporating. These are not general temperatures that these things occur. That happen at a specific temp, not 5 degrees this way or that way). Dave Sorry I should have put "magic" in quotes. I was stealing that term from another post. It "IS" a sliding scale and if you put my statement back in the context of my entire post I go on to say that there are so many variables that can effect DO in combination with temp. 80 does not have the same effect on all water. Now if you take everything else out of the equation (which is impossible) Waters ability to retain DO takes the biggest drop at 27 degrees Centigrade (80.60F) and continues downward as temp go up. AGAIN, this is running tests in a lab on distilled water. My knowledge on water comes from 30 years of fascination and studying the earliest form of the internet, books. I have a wall full of them on water parameters and fish. You are welcome to come over and read them all. I sited enough references in college to never start doing it ever again. I also had a span of 7 years where I ran anywhere from 2 to 10 major water tests a day on multiple samples of water. (These were all from aquariums or holding tanks, but more bad things happened at 80 degrees F and above than 79 and below) To answer the post about DO level lower at night. - Yes Oxygen exchange happens at the surface. (thus the more surface area the more DO exchange...current, waves, wind, waterfalls all create more DO because they create more surface area). Photosynthesis is what makes oxygen. (The majority of all the oxygen in the world comes from phytoplankton living in the ocean.) Photosynthesis only happens during daylight hours. The biological load (respiration and decomposition) on a body of water does not use any less oxygen at night then during the day, but the atmosphere contains much less oxygen at night so less oxygen is available to absorb into the water. Oxygen levels usually decline as the night progresses, and are usually at their lowest right before sunrise. To respond to another post. Not all fish react to changes the same. Bass are a warmer water fish and can handle higher temps better than others. Do you go to Saskatchewan to fish trophy largemouth? You would be better served to try Texas, Georgia or Florida. I breed discus and keep them at 86 degrees. In salt water a 3 degree temperature shift up or down from 74 degrees can wipe out an entire reef. (I've watched it happen when my power went out.) Other fish are freaking bullet proof. I spilled a bottle Windex in with a plecostomus on accident (he sat in it for hours before I noticed) kept on eating as if nothing happened. He lived for years. This is a topic that has interested me for a long time. I'm not trying to lecture anyone. A question was asked by one and discussed by many. No one is holding anyone's head in front of the computer and making them read this. (I hope not anyway). Do what I do when a post starts boring me. Go to the basement bait section and look at the art. (I wish fat fingers would post some more work. I gotta get one of those soon) Later, Dave Edited by Fish and Whistle 7/15/2010 8:16 PM | ||
| PJV |
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| Excellent points, Dave. However, atmospheric oxygen levels are approximately 21%, which is considerably higher than dissolved oxygen levels in water. That level was reached only after a billion or more years of photosynthesis by primitive cyanobacteria, and does not vary significantly on a daily basis. It is, afterall, always daytime somewhere, and the atmosphere is a continuous open system with currents and allowing for diffusion. A small body of water is a different story. DO levels do drop at night, however, because aquatic plants in that body of water are not photosynthesizing. Surface area and surface agitation do increase DO levels, but that is only part of the equation, and if you were to compare the surface area of a body of water with the volume of water containing oxygen producing plants, the ratio would be quite large. Edited by PJV 7/15/2010 8:41 PM | |||
| Fish and Whistle |
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Posts: 462 Location: Antioch, IL | PJV - 7/15/2010 8:38 PM Excellent points, Dave. However, atmospheric oxygen levels are approximately 21%, which is considerably higher than dissolved oxygen levels in water. **(Correct, that is why the oxygen moves from the air to the water and not vise versa)** That level was reached only after a billion or more years of photosynthesis by primitive cyanobacteria, and does not vary significantly on a daily basis. **(Correct, if you are talking about the entire atmosphere as a whole, but it does vary a lot from location to location / environment to environment)** .It is, afterall, always daytime somewhere, and the atmosphere is a continuous open system with currents and allowing for diffusion. **(Yes, but the atmosphere does not move with the daylight. You would have to have a constant 1000pmh west wind at the equator for this to happen. Of course it would only need to be a slight breeze at the poles.) If it is a steady 5 to 10 mile an hour wind when you go to sleep you will be breathing air from about 40-80 miles when you wake up NOTE: This does not account for any resistance (trees, hills, valleys, buildings, etc... (That is if you sleep for eight hours. Most of us would be getting air from 20-40 miles away)** QUOTE] Smaller and/or shallow bodies of water or smaller/shallow sections of larger bodies (depending on current) will be affected more. Edited by Fish and Whistle 7/16/2010 12:46 PM | ||
| Slow Rollin |
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Posts: 619 | john skarie - 7/15/2010 6:26 PM So I guess Rod and Dan are fisheries biologists with an agenda?? That's cool with me as I'm pretty sure the agenda involves creating a great muskie fishery in MN and then also sustaining it. The deer analogy brings up an interesting point to me. I was always raised that you only take "clean" shots at deer. It was the ethical and sportsmanlike thing to do. Yah we are all out to kill deer, but there are acceptable and unacceptable practices among hunters. I guess that's how I view muskies. I want to aware of my impact on a fish that I plan on fishing for the rest of my life. So why not try to have as little impact on the resource you want to continue to utilize? It's about respect and restraint in your pursuit. In hot water periods I either won't fish for muskies, or go barbless only with water release. I guess I view that as being along the same lines as why I won't gut shoot a deer if I can help it. JS makes sense to me, wish more people would think this way, but i dont think they do. i water release almost all the time, even in the fall......dont want to get cut by a thrashing fish again, not worth heading to ER for stitches. i got a hunch MN fishing is headed down the crapper will never be what it used to be, the pressure is incredible....a guy used to be able to get lucky fish or a stupid fish that hasnt seen a bait in awhile, not anymore. Edited by Slow Rollin 7/16/2010 12:48 PM | ||
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