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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | SO,,,, Back in the slop.... do you spend a lot of time there and pick it apart ? and what lures do you use the most, steve ?
BN. 3.5 hrs is what you expect to contact/ boat a muskie ? Explain, because that is hard for me to understand..... You say this is what you shoot for everytime out.
I've been reading your post's for years and put a lot of Stock in what you contrubute.... If that truly is what you believe, why don't fish more Tournaments ?
You should do well in them..... Just asking
Jerome
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | My favorite slop lures include spinnerbaits that ride higher in the column, weedless rigged plastics, and if surface conditions allow, a Weagle. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | Jerome,
Yes I keep track of hrs on the water per fish in the net and over the course of a season I do expect it to fall close to that 3.5 hr mark...have done tourneys, will do some possibly again but to me I'd rather fish where I want, when I want...  |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Thats cool,... 3,5 hrs..... Wow ! You do know that I'm not talking about follows, that could care less? I'm talking about"HOT" fish..... Ones that want to eat.
And a Weagle would be one of the first slop lures that I throw.
Jerome |
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Posts: 2361
| Sam Ubl - 5/12/2010 3:09 PM
A "cold front" is a cold front, no matter how you look at it. . . Many mid-summer cold fronts can bring cooler weather, not always muggy - although I do know what you're talking about.
There's more to it aside from your simplistic approach. Understanding why musky are slower and less aggressive after a major front has moved through is important and can have several reasons behind it. One reason is the feed bag that many muskies put on during the brink and climax of the "storm". Full bellies means a need to increase metabolism, which is where the warmer water is. Use the science behind the seiche effect and you can make predictions where and when the water is the warmest (windblown shore vs lee side). . .
Warmer doesn't always mean more aggressive, especially in the summer, but in colder months like May, where temperature fluctuation is rampant, it can make or break your day on the water depending on how you use it - my opinion.
Where we fished yesterday was loaded with fish the day before - why, after using the same tactics, was it so slow?? Were they still there? Maybe, but they sure weren't aggressive - why not? Could be me, but I would feel pretty silly preaching that changing temperatures and fronts don't impact your success rate on the water. . .
Exploring different approaches to different conditions is what educates an experienced fisherman - assuming no changes occur and everything is the same is a closed-minded approach to teeter tot your success between luck and the skunk.
The "sieche" effect?? OMG!!!! Sam, you didn't get anything out of my post.
I don't care what the full reason for the changes in activity might be. It really doesn't matter. The fact the fish are sedentary is really all that matters to me.
I just try and deal with that. Temperature fluctuations, they happen. I said I fish the best spots. I didn't say I used the same techniques all the time.
You don't have to know all the why's and wherefores to make an educated guess as to what might successfully initiate a strike today. It is an interesting conversation, but point after point ends in the unknown. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | Jerome, 2008 a fish was in the net every 3.7 hours on the water....last year was a bit more at 4.5 hrs.
so yes, I am not talking about hot follows..i'm talking about fish in the net...
Edited by BNelson 5/12/2010 10:32 PM
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | In basic terms, a front is a change in air masses. A "cold" front is cooler air, most times cool canadian air that is dry, replacing warmer air. Since cool air in denser, the front is usually very sharp vertically as it pushes the warmer air along and up. Frontal passage is always indicated by a wind shift. Some fronts pass with little or no notice except for wind shift.
Fish, do not have any sense of barometic pressure. An air mass above a lake, cannot change the density of water or transcend the water column. Thus, fish have no sense of air pressure. Along with this, fish are always feeding (at least predators). Most use light conditions to put themselves in adventagous positions for feeding. Fish might seem like they are not active or "biting" because you haven't found the right pattern for the current conditions that they are looking for. Anything that reduces a baitfishes ability to see predators gives the predator the advantage. Most prey fish have good eyesights but don't have good senses that predators have. Muskies have good laterial lines and sensors on their bodies, walleyes have large light grabbing eyes, bass are excellent ambush feeders, etc....
Bottom line, fish are always biting, go fishing, just be aware of the water conditions and be preparred to change your presentation. |
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | "Fish, do not have any sense of barometic pressure" ........... and lunar influences like moon set, moon rise, etc. are non sequitur, and simply the nonsensical musings of anal retentive muskie fisherman.
Interesting discussion.
Have fun!
Al
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Prey' fish are all for the most part 'predatory' to other species of fish or critters, and are equipped with senses as advantageous to survival as the predators that eat them. Evolution has added a couple neat tricks in coloration and behavior to the tool kit, too.
Fish are no more 'always feeding' than any other critter. Sure, somewhere in some way, there's a catchable fish in every body of water sometime during the time one is on the water, but to say action is strictly the product of putting the 'right' presentation out there is IMO too simplistic. There are times when the fish are not going and catching them no matter what is done is very...very...difficult.
That 'catchable' fish is the wild card I try to draw to by going to the water I feel I can narrow down the location keys and beat the area until a fish goes. That's why I fish heavy cover on dark water on smaller lakes when there's a strong cold front through. Sometimes that doesn't work either, and yes, the fish are there. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | MuskieMetal - Not arguing, just keeping the conversation flowing - I think we're embarking on another satisfying thread like the night color choices thread... finally, no politics.
Baro pressure is felt more in shallow water because of the weight of the water in deeper water being so high. When pressure changes, swim bladders get imploded and makes fish uncomfortable to the point where they naturally get on the move to avoid feeling 'bloated', so to speak. When fish are on the move, which increases their susceptibility to being caught (no longer hunkered down).
A dropping baro (cloud cover moving in/front on the move) will have many fish heading to deeper water, yet staying higher in the water column (how about trying topwater in 50' or greater?). In my experience, when the pressure has been low and bad weather has been present for some time, these fish hover over basin structure, if any, and feed seldomly.
When the pressure starts rising after the storm has passed, who hasn't encountered the feeding frenzy as these fish start moving back up to shallower water and are hungry from their stored hunger?
And lastly, IMO, when the pressure is settled high, clear skies for some time with hot air to boot, these fish again will slow down and hunker into the cover. While this is all theory, it makes sense to me so I believe baro pressure changes DO make a difference in catchability.
Edited by Sam Ubl 5/13/2010 8:27 AM
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | Sam, Fish moving from 1 foot of water to 5 feet of water will experience greater forces than the lowest recorded barometric pressure on earth. They deal with these greater pressure changes all the time and are used to it, why would they care if the air pressure above the lake pushed down instead of 14.1psi to 14.2psi? Maybe it was the changes in the weather, (light changes), wind, clouds, etc. this would make more sense to the changing behavoir of fish. All I am saying is worry less about air pressure and more about how the weather is affecting the conditions of the water. Light penetration into the water column will dictate the presenation style. Walleye fishing is very keen on this, bass guys also. Moon phases also add another level of light, either none or full can give advantages to fish in feeding. If you actually break down some of these patterns, you will find that it's not the barometric pressure that was causing the pattern, but the weather and light conditions. Steve, I believe any fish is catchable and feeding. Now, am I willing to spend the energy attempting to figure out what is going to trigger that, no. Locating the active fish is beneficial, but put the right combination in front of any fish and I am sure they will take advantage of your offering.... |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Steve, I believe any fish is catchable and feeding. Now, am I willing to spend the energy attempting to figure out what is going to trigger that, no. Locating the active fish is beneficial, but put the right combination in front of any fish and I am sure they will take advantage of your offering.... '
Never said unbridled optimism isn't good. I've just found reality is a cruel taskmaster. |
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | Lots of highly sophisticated responses here. As a guide I have to fish under all sorts of weather related conditions. First, I never can really tell before I try a few spots if the fish are as messed up as I think they might be. Sometimes they bite when I don't think they should. I can never really tell if the fish are going to bite or not, and I would think it would be a bad thing to have that thought in the back of your mind. However, if after trying some things and nothings happening, I suspect that they are pretty mad about something. Then what I do is just fish my best spots. The idea here is that my best spots probably have the most fish associated with them. The more fish I'm fishing over the more likely I am that I'll run into one that will bite. I'm never sure what they'll bite on and it really doesn't seem to make a lot of differance most of the time. Mostly when the fishing is slow you just need to fish harder. Doug Johnson
Edited by dougj 5/13/2010 5:28 PM
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Yeah, perhaps a bit to much sarcasm. My apology!
http://www.in-fisherman.com/content/make-forecast-pick-pattern/3
Scientist's have been looking at how fish swim bladders affect fish for a long time, how about something circa 1939?
http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/reprint/76/1/48.pdf
It would seem that it's simple physic's-Because of the hydrostatic quality of water (it's basically incompressible), even minor barometric pressure changes can be detected by scientific instruments located at any depth below the water surface. It all depends on the precision/capability of the instrument. Perhaps our friends (the muskie) have developed the best instrument of all, i.e., the swim bladder, although it's probably taken millions of years.
Then again, there's always a counter argument!
http://www.midcurrent.com/articles/science/ross_pressure_myth.aspx
So why do we see muskies more active as the storms approach? Is it the wind? What about the calm before the storm? They certainly can't physically see the aproaching storm. As I said before- interesting discussion. But then again, maybe we overthink it. Perhaps, the best strategy is to just fish!
Have fun!
Al
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Posts: 676
Location: Wisconsin | Granted, I think maybe the point I am trying to make is even if they could sense it, which I am not convinced they can, why would they need to know that to feed? It appears from your PDF link, that fish can adjust for this change, and probably are used to having the change and even going down a couple of feet in the water can cause dramatic changes. What advantages does a slight lower pressure or higher pressure give a predator to feed on prey? I can point out that light reduction, structure, current, etc all offer advantage points for feeding. This is mostly caused by weather which in directly is caused by changes in air masses. I guess I am starting to contradict myself and saying that we are over complicating it, and just to get out every day and fish, don't worry about barometers. |
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Posts: 899
| A lot of my big fish pictures have approaching fronts (i.e. new cloud cover) far off in the background, not directly overhead, so I think there is more to this than changing light conditions. I don't think fish "know" that they need to feed, I think something happens to them physiologically when the barometric pressure changes that makes them hungry or more aggressive. You can disregard the barometer all you want, but I won't be. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Cold fronts don't have to be as tough as advertised. We've caught some very big fish of all species under cold front conditions, although numbers are usually down considerably. One thing we do is target big fish (hit big fish water). If you're looking at a crack at only 1 or 2 fish in a day, why not go big? We usually head deep, be it deep weeds, cribs, or suspended. For most of the summer months, walleyes and suckers will bury in the deep weeds. Trolling open water can also be dynamite under cold front conditions. Casting deep weeds is mostly done with Pounders or one guy in the boat may downsize to a Mag Dawg or Big Joe. Another fun technique is to jig the deep weeds with a big jig and 6" to 8" sucker or redtail. What's neat about this is that you usually pick up a few big pike, bass, and walleyes throughout the course of the day which keeps things interesting.
JS |
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Posts: 416
Location: Madtown, WI | As I've stated on this board before in the past, I have a hard time believing pressure directly affects a fish's appetite for reasons stated above by others (cool articles ESOX MANIAC, thanks!). My BS reason for why fish go crazy before a storm is mainly because of the affects of wind changes. If you have a strong breeze that goes from 15mph to calm in the matter of mins prior to a storm rolling through, I would suspect that muskies will suddenly be much more in tune to their environment. I would compare it to driving down the highway with all of the windows open then quickly rolling them up. Once they're shut, you're able to hear the radio, another person talking, etc etc much better. I would imagine the wind/waves could have a similar affect on fish's lateral line and would be a great opportunity to feed as it can all of sudden feel each thwomp of your double 10 blades that much better. I think wind also plays a factor into the sunset bite (change in light being numuro uno) since calming winds typically coincide with the sun setting. I've always had better luck at sunset when the wind calms down.
Of course I don't think this is the only factor, as I'm sure you could catch a fish in a calm bay before a storm rolls through as well. But changes in wind/waves and light makes sense to me biologically speaking... but I'm no biologist. |
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