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KidDerringer |
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Posts: 244 Location: Mallard Island Lake Vermilion MN | Pretty good info here...might I add a few things a driff off a bit? Good info all...getting into it pretty deep to simple logic...good for everyone. Around age 12 I remember I learned to see the lake as PamuskEhunt draws out what he sees on map. 3D in my mind...just sort of stuck that way. Since way back then I still look at map or finder an view in my minds eye a 3 D image. Weird...but helps me in all I do. Tell ya why. reading a map is in fact lke reading a womens body...get good at it how ever you chose to do it an your info a treat.....no doubt. : ) See it in my head, lake bottom or what ever I building in 3D.... lil brain holds it in there for some reason. Scribbling down little maps an skematics of sorts has always been a hobby of mine...weird maybe but I enjoy it. Easy wy to learn yer way around a guitar also......really a bug help when doc tells ya you have cancer an he is going to slice ya up an rip it out...fun to draw up a map of him doing that. LOL x 1000000 : ) Any who...from doing this from a young age....scribbling maps in 3D...you then can Pull up on a spot..know it to better fish it...know which way to fish it depepnding weather an season...to have more fun. All that simple stuff you learn from time on the water having fun from early age.....now made fancy & complictaed online ....like stuff you see on tv nowadays or hear in seminars that should help you puzzle things together to make it an enjoyable experience next time yer out...but some how it all runs togehter....an right out yer brain into space..like this cyber stuff. Web finger typen info..some get it, some don't....sposed to be fun...not complicated or insulting. Silly. : ) Being able to just fish areas you learn or see in yer mind as a 3D image is a hoot. So maybe having the 3D curse is a good thing. By just fishen a spot hard or often, you learn it an helps you go to NEW placees an learn them faster an be more productive...well it is fishen...fish are always the home team we are visitor every time out, so they have to do their part also ...helps when trying to swing for the fences eh.....so I will say for me all this is to have more FUN! Yup to have more fun. Think some logic also in fish moving off shallow structure an holding or roaming at simular depths before moving back up or going deep. This based on what we have seen over the years fishen muskie fish an pikes...well everything but I'm just finger jiving here for toothy fishys....makes sense to me. Lots of good stuff has happened just from turning around an casting to deeper water side while clients / friends work the usual fishy looking structure....working not DEEP, top surface to 5 feet down maybe...BANG!!!! : ) Some times it pays off...some times not but always fun. Facts an info Mr. D lays out is very interesting to me....Jason Long also...I have always liked how Jason wirtes an discribes stuff.......W Shultz graph is also cool info... Mr. D's years of him doing what he does, when an where he dose it has to mean something ...doubt he would lay it out there with out seeing it or experiencing it...pretty cool he would share it. THANKS Mr. D...fun stuff. Growing up Frogtown St. Paul....no money for first depthfinders coming out or maps really...use rope an a window weight or anchor to tell how deep we were on spots, where humps went deeper, where rock met sand or much ....used sight lines to follow weeds...in clear water knew weeds did follow bottom an line a still grew, cause we flutter down spoons an rips up weeds an bigger pike. Same at depths where weeds stopped an rock began...kind a draw it up an follow those areas of changing structurs or contours as it is called to become better fishers have more fun. Fun junk...never missed any of the fancy stuff we see in bass guys boats coming up from Texas in the 70's... Wished we had it ..sure..dreaming we would have it someday was fun....we just had fun fishen an used logic an junk we found during the day to get better at knowing what was under us. When we did have a map or got to see one we would draw things like PaMuskEhunt did....got pretty good at it cause we all had Drafting classes an lots of shop classes in our school..so we knew how to draw up a pretty good map...fast...mostly on back of soda pop 24 pak cardboard flats...they works pretty good. : ) When we were about 16 old guy at an resort on Forset Lke..Fred Tomkie knew us pretty good since we was lil kids...well younger kids...knew we got into fish most times we went out in my lil 12 foot boat n 5 HP Sea King motor.... One day he saw us doing up a map with a plan on his outside minnow cooler...old coke pop machine with a hose bringing in lake water an out other side....no need for air as he had pinched copper tube in end of hose to make it come out really fast an fish loved it...made all kinds of bubbles. Any who...he told us if you really want to learn how to learn the lake, from top to bottom....yer old enuff so think of her as a pretty womens body. Many cuvres an crevesas, ups an down, soft places an ruff places, places you see really easy, some you don't ...an some places only have skin other covered in hair, some you think you know good, but will never figure out cause they change all the time. As you grow older and explore as you WILL ...you will learn she likes you to know all the right places. Some more sensitive than others...some hidden....but all fun to mess around with. As you do this you can then use this when learning your lakes....explore, remember an enjoy.....you will better at all you do if you see thig=ngs this way, slow down an remeber to have fun an never stop talking to each other, sharing an learning...it all you do. Now get in the boat an bring me some fish for lunch. WOW! Life changing stuff but at the time we just got excited he was telling us about womens body junk and he was going to have fish with us for lucnh an we could then ask more womens stuff an get soem free pops an chips. : ) : ) To this day I see the lakes I fish top to bottom like a women body....exploring, remembering, enjoying....having fun. Maybe one reason I did not get married until I was 48 years....to much structure to explore...FOR SURE! Any who...good info....Keeping it simple works for me but I enjoy reading how everyone else dose things...makes me a better fisher, makes me smile some too...when you think you know it all...time to wake up...you don't. When the learning is done...well it never is...just way I view it...fingers type it...lil brain spuews it out. : ) All things fishen sposed to be about fun, relaxing an being with people you enjoy being with..to share info an keep learning...well for me it is. My logic might not work for you, maybe you don't like womens? : ) But if you can read a map in 3D as PAmuskEhunt draws his maps...you WILL get better fishen lakes you been fishen a long time. Or not...but it fun to try. Now go fish. Go vikes. Keep on rocken! Tommy | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32880 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Well siad, Tommy. I always have said I read a map as if looking at the lake like a field. The water is only there to hold up my boat and give the fish a place to live. Another way of saying think in 3D. My opinion, especially with Muskies; there's no 'sanctuary' out there. Implications of anthropomorphism. | ||
| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | Nobody is really talking about the shallow, shut down portions of the population. I mean, WTH are THEY doing? As to suspended "sanctuary", all well and good but then what are you going to say about suspended feeding strategies, and is non feeding suspension by choice, or is it forced by excessive water and angler activity, or simply movement? And sanctuary itself, is that respite from danger or simply the old folks home in between outings on the bus? The thermocline as a breakline? Well, somewhat if the surface can be a breakline, it can be the barrier between the inhabitable and uninhabitable in many lakes, and can represent the coolest, darkest water available at times, which might be a fish choice in bright, clear water, hot weather habitats. Is it thus a breakline or a "hard deck for this operation"? Get into clear water two story lakes and there are more unresolved questions. You would think it was something that would limit a fish per comfort zone temperature, but that really doesn't seem to be the case either, if some of the literature and anecdotal information is correct, so how does that work? Doesn't really matter to me, cause I aint going there, but it is an interesting group of questions that will probably take a fair amount of research to answer, and still leave a lot to speculation. If they aint in the first six feet, who cares? Edited by firstsixfeet 1/24/2010 11:49 AM | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32880 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Where there is food, there will be fish. If there's no oxygen, there won't be food or fish. Hard deck if one story, oxygen not being a drop dead factor, not so much in a two story. Good point, FSF, I spend an inordinate amount of time chasing those heavy cover oriented muskies in skinny water. I enjoy that type of fishing. Even on really busy waters, if the conditions I look for exist, I can fish fat Muskies in Skinny water and do well. I also have spent decades tossing jigs at every foot of the water column long before the big pseudo-creatures we now call 'plastics' existed. Gotta know the water to approach it right, hence reading a map and learning the water. | ||
| Muskie4Life |
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Posts: 105 | Good stuff Tommy, I will never look at the lake the same!!LOL Now I need to go take a cold shower, been thinking about the lake to much.. | ||
| hawkeye9 |
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Posts: 426 Location: Perryville, MO | Wow (all from a question concerning maps)...things have certainly went beyond my expertice in many regards here...(plently of reasons to stick with fish relating to shallow water now) yet since I started the thread I'd like to believe that I'm still entitled to chime in (frankly this sort of discussion is what I've found amazingly helpful about M1...guys with tons of knowledge and experience sharing what they've learned). I think what Larry and Will have suggested makes all the sense in the world (I haven't read Buck's book yet). Unless I missed something what Larry has said with regards to atmospheric pressure isn't all that complicated. Scuba divers certainly understand that as you descend into the water every 14 feet increases the atmospheric pressure one time over what is "normal" pressure on dry land. While fish are able to adjust that adjustment takes time. More time than daily movements would allow for under normal circumstances. Makes sense and certainly relates to my experience of targeting a particular school of bass over a period of time. Sliding along the breakline from 6' water to 30' water in the course of a day I've never seen. But I have found (what I certainly believe to be the same school of bass) over the course of days working their way deeper and deeper. FSF must certainly be right about the fact that there are fish doing different things. Some fish - if for no other reason than postive reinforcement - will relate to deeper hunting patterns and others to shallow even during the course of the same conditions. (At least this has been proven time and time again with other species as 1st and 2nd places of tourney's can have one guy who caught fish deep and another who caught them shallow.) Though, if muskie don't make that depth adjustment substantially faster than other species it would be hugely important. Targeting fish at the same place in the water column rules out a whole heck of a lot of unproductive water and unproductive techniques for the fish that you have been able to actually locate early in the day. One other thing: (new or not to the world of muskie fishing) I'm wise enough to understand the amazing contributions of the anglers that have developed the knowledge base for us who follow. Yet, surely we are allowed (and I'd like to believe would be encouraged by them) to critically evaluate what they've passed on. Masters, yes. But not omniscient and inerrant gods. I took the comments to be quite respectful. Just my $.02. | ||
| rpike |
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Posts: 291 Location: Minneapolis | hawkeye9 - 1/24/2010 3:28 PM Scuba divers certainly understand that as you descend into the water every 14 feet increases the atmospheric pressure one time over what is "normal" pressure on dry land. Lots of really great stuff in this thread, including hawkeye9's post. However, as a once-upon-a-time scuba diver, I'd like to point out that 33 feet is one atmosphere, not 14 feet. So pressure doubles from the surface to 33 feet, triples at 66, etc. So the fastest percent change is in the top 33 feet. What that means is that a 14 foot difference is a lot more significant when it's between 0 - 14 feet than it is between 60 - 74 feet. Not that it really matters; the point is the same. Fish won't make a drastic depth movement in a single day because it takes too long to re-equilibrate. Like someone (sworral maybe?) pointed out, a quick sprint and grab up or down happens all the time, but relocating up or down will take some time. Edited by rpike 1/24/2010 3:56 PM | ||
| Ldahlberg |
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| One atmosphere (101.325 kPa or 14.7 lbf/in²) is the amount of pressure that can lift water approximately 10.3 m (33.9 feet). Thus, a diver at a depth 10.3 meters under water in a fresh-water lake experiences a pressure of about 2 atmospheres (1 atm for the air and 1 atm for the water)." Source(s): http://www.answers.com/topic/atmospheric-pressure?cat=technology | |||
| Almost-B-Good |
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Posts: 433 Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | Very interesting discussion. I think there are different map skills as they relate to the size of the lake fished. When you are on waters like LOTW and Lac Seul, you might be missing the forest for the trees so to speak. There are points and bars that can be 5 miles long or longer, kind of what I'd call mega-structure that are overlooked. There are times I believe that you miss these larger structures by concentrating on much smaller versions and can be missing greater concentrations of fish. On the other side, I find maps pretty much useless on small lakes as they mostly come out looking like a rifle target, shallow around the outside and deep in the center. You can easily fish an entire small lake several times in one day, with cover much more important than the minimal structure present. On reservoirs, you could possibly make the claim that structure without cover or cover without structure often isn't worth much but the combination of the two can be a really good spot. Depending on the quality of the map, you might be tempted to fish the best structures, but they might be way down on the list of good spots simple because they aren't associated with the cover the bait may be using. Basically you need to combine knowledge of fish habits with size and type of water before you can use general map reading skills effectively. It's all interconnected. | ||
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