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Posts: 720
| For those of you who are beating the drum the loudest regarding the guides and the dark house folks. What exactly do you want? Is it the complete elimination of the guides and dark houses? Or is it just keeping them off your brood stock lakes? I'm not trying to be a wiseguy here. I'm curious. What makes you folks feel that your agendas are more important then other sportsman? Is your money any greener than theirs? Are muskys better fish because we fish them? Fighting with the guides to keep them off your lakes is a farce. Many of the guides that folks are referring too are the same ones we are paying money to hear speak at our club meetings and shows. So I find that arguement to be hypocritical.
To get back to my orignal thought in my first post. We need to work with these folks. All of us. I don't get it. Does making a big stink make you feel better. It does nothing to further relations with the DNR or other angler organizations. We look and act elitist with kind of talk. No give and take means just that. Lets talk to these folks and not at them. Its really simple, but yet we as a musky community continually beat our heads against the wall. I don't get it.
Edited by Hunter4 1/7/2009 8:07 AM
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Hunter is right.
I've seen several fish floating on Plant, all big fish that died from delayed mortality.
If we're going to ban spearers on Brood lakes, than if we don't ban fishing that's being pretty hypocritcal if our reasons are "to protect the fishery".
JS |
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Posts: 3147
| What if the reality is that they dont 'want' to work with us because is that a zero possibility.
Do we sit down and "work" with sportsman for responsible muske management-"no more muskies" based on their track record.
I understand all about forgeting the past and turning the other cheek but sometimes when you turn the other cheek and the other guy keeps swinging you now end up with two black eyes instead of one |
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| May sound like a stupid question but do you know what a brood stock lake is. Is it a musky nursery, a musky sanctuary, a musky preservation site, or just a place where the dnr collects eggs for hatchery usage? |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I LOVE winter!!!!!
For the record in MN the number of licensed anglers that said they target muskies in the 2006 Fulton study was 14-15% not 3%. This also didn't include out of state licenses. This is one reason why our voices are being heard more now then in years. |
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Posts: 8775
| It's not hard to figure out that there's not a lot of common ground between a group of anglers who thinks someone is killing all "their" fish, and another group who thinks the first group is trying to stop them from spearing "their" fish.
The winners in all of this, if there are to be any winners, will be whatever group can present their arguments in a professional, sensible, and courteous manner to those responsibile for making the decisions.
So let me ask you all something...
Can we as musky anglers collectively get along, play nice, and conduct ourselves in a professional manner long enough to make any difference here?
What IS the common ground? Is there any? Can there be any?
The way I see it is that both groups are killing muskies unintentionally. We're killing them through little or no fault of our own simply by fishing for them, they are killing them by little or no fault of their own by spearing them thinking they were big pike.
So do we argue about which ones are deader? Do we argue about who shouldn't be doing what they are legally entitled to do? Do we argue about who owns what fish, what fish are more important, what laws are right or wrong?
Seems like that gets us nowhere, year after year, after year...
You can't tell me that there aren't at least a few cooler heads on both sides of the fence who would like to see this go away and find some common ground where both groups can be happy. Or I should say both groups can be slightly less unhappy about the way things are...
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Posts: 720
| Hooker,
All I want to know and I don't think its that difficult of a question. What do you as a musky fisherman want from the folks that spear? That would be a place to start. All I'm saying is the all the hard talk and chest thumping is going to get us the big goose egg.
You know if I wanted to argue with someone I could step away from the computer and go talk to my wife. |
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Posts: 23
| EA- not calling you out, just quick questions- Yah, I agree with most of your post about cool heads and getting people together in a sensible/professional manner...
The part I find a problem with is when you said "both groups are killing muskies unintentionally." That muskie, along with many others from that lake and other lakes in the region was killed intentionally by an irresponsible spearer. Spearers can easily tell the difference between fish, as they should. You could have a 30 inch pike and a 30 inch muskie next to each other and very easily tell them apart. Why throw the spear if you don't know your target? A 49-50 inch northern pike? No. The spearer in this case is at fault for killing a large, mature muskie illegally.
How can we stop it? Realistically probably cannot. Probably the same 'outdoorsmen/sportsmen' (ha) who shine deer, kill 20 ducks a day, fish before season, etc. Just hope the MN DNR catches these guys.
Edited by Scottie Thomas 1/7/2009 3:51 PM
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Posts: 32884
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | So now this entire thing begs the real question, what can be done, how can it be done, and who will do it?
Not much
By negotiation with everyone in all aspects of this debate
Treats and company, that's who, and he pretty much summed it up already.
Someone broke a law. No one, apparently, knows who. Hard to punish someone if you don't know who to punish, or this guy would have a court date scheduled already. So beating this horse some more won't accomplish much, except for arriving at the same conclusion a few more times.
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Posts: 8775
| Scottie, that's a valid question. Intentional spearing of muskies is a different problem in my opinion -- that falls under illegal and unethical behavior. I suspect that a vast majority of the Dark House guys are as angry about that sort of behavior as we are. As much as I believe that IS a problem, I think we have to ignore that segment of the population for purposes of this discussion. There will always be people who don't respect the laws, and dont respect the natural resources they enjoy. There are people like that in muskie fishing as well. All we can do is report them when we see them, and hope that they get caught sooner rather than later.
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Posts: 8775
| sworrall - 1/7/2009 4:06 PM
So now this entire thing begs the real question, what can be done, how can it be done, and who will do it?
Not much
By negotiation with everyone in all aspects of this debate
Treats and company, that's who, and he pretty much summed it up already.
Someone broke a law. No one, apparently, knows who. Hard to punish someone if you don't know who to punish, or this guy would have a court date scheduled already. So beating this horse some more won't accomplish much, except for arriving at the same conclusion a few more times.
Steve, let's forget about illegal and unethical behavior for a moment -- that occurs on both sides of the fence, and is more a reflection of poor character than it is a certain sporting group or activity.
The question was raised and not answered:
What does the muskie angling population WANT from the spearing community? What is it we want them to do or not do?
What exactly do they want US to do?
Other than the obvious fact that we don't like them because they spear fish and we like to release fish so we can catch them again, and they don't like us because we don't like them , what IS the problem?
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Posts: 32884
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The problem is muskie anglers want to ban spearing on Muskie lakes so this sort of thing can't happen.
The Darkhouse folks want to be left alone to pursue their sport on the lakes it is now legal do do so, and do not want any further regulations limiting same.
Everyone wants everyone else to behave ethically and legally in an acceptable fashion.
Have I missed anything? |
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Posts: 3147
| Hunter 4
what I want from the spearers is when we do have a dispute on things how about letting the DNR settle it and accept their judgement,,,,we do,,, Muskie Groups wanted a dec 15th closing date because that would pretty much cover all open water. The dnr said they favored a dec 1st closing we went along. We wanted and still want 54' minimum on some waters the DNR advised us to go 48' so again we went with their expertise. Dark house assoc and musky fisherman cant see eye to eye on an issue and the DNR is asked for their opinion and if it dosent go the darkhouse way they use politicians to make resource decisions over the dnr. When we want something changed we ask the dnr to look at the feasibility of doing it, Recent history shows darkhouse gets a politican to push it.
In regards to Brood stock lakes If we now feel that they are being hit hard I say lets bring the issue to the dnr and have them take a look and see,,I dont fish Plant,little wolf or Rebecca because their brood lakes and I know Im missing some good fishing,If the dnr thinks its best for the program I'll go along with no muskie fishing and spearing on those waters even though our muskie lakes are getting crowded. |
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Posts: 720
| Mr. Worrall,
Thank you. Nothing can be done that hasn't been done already. Yet some seem to be dead set on lumping a whole group of tax paying anglers into the same barrel. I understand the outrage but statements like "we need to eliminate in our brood stock lakes" or how much of man I was because I can use a few curse words with some of the opposition in the parking lot makes us look stupid and unwaivering. Not what we need at all. This spearing incident was carried out by some unethical morons and I suspect it made no difference to them wheather it was a spear or a rod/reel. This is fishing and not life and death. Threatening a full grown man with violence over fishing is a joke. Challengeing someone's views over a certain aspect of fishing with diplomacy and class will carry a man or woman much farther. Just ask the WRMA and Larry Ramsell how well that approach works. I continue to use that as a reference because of the great idea they had that got shot to hell because of a few chest thumping, huge egomanical folks. That whole issue set us back and made us as musky anglers look foolish. I don't think spearfisherman have any more or any less of a right to a lake than I do. So outside of the few morons that break the law what grounds do we have to complain. The answer to that is none. So chalk this incident up to an unethical idiot and leave the good folks that do abide by the laws alone. |
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Posts: 720
| Hooker,
Thank you for your answer. If you could give me a little time to think about what you wrote I would like to respond to your post. You have made me think and I appreciate the thought that went into your response. I'll send you a PM later if that is ok.
Dave |
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | "Guest, Former Bemidji/Cass Lake Chapter President",
You are right I personally don't think I have done enough to voice my opinion on these matters. I will start attending meetings in the area and getting more involved. If there is an upcoming meeting for these type of discussions feel free to post it on my website. Also, is there a website that has these meetings listed? If so could you e-mail it to me or post it here?
I posted this thread on here and on many many other sites to make people aware of the problems we face in northern MN. I would assume that quite a few people called/e-mailed our local DNR office and let them know their thoughts on the matter. I have gotten around 30 phone calls/e-mails from friends and even people that I didn't know stating that they called and talked to someone at the office.
As far as me introducing other guides to the lake being discussed that is false. This is a common misconception and one that I am not fond of. I let one of the guides rent a room at my house for a few summers, he was fishing the lake before I met him. I no longer associate myself with him. I have talked to the other guide maybe a few times, never was it about him coming over here and fishing.
I do disagree with the area brood lakes having large pike. I haven't caught more than 4 pike over 34 inches in the last 6 years of fishing up here. I haven't even heard of anglers catching large pike in any of these brood waters. I firmly believe that there are far more musky in these lakes than there are northern pike. I personally don't think that it makes sense to allow spearing on brood waters.
You also asked, "Here's a question... when was the last time that spawn was take from a muskie in one of these lakes?
Gary Bernard at our office indicated that he took spawn from fish in '07 and '08 out of this lake, 53 being the biggest. This is an active brood lake that the DNR use every year.
Edited by kevin cochran 1/7/2009 5:14 PM
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I know that snagging muskies was being reported as a problem on Vermillion a few years ago.
Interesting to note that muskie anglers didn't push for a ban on fishing for them with rod and reel because a few anglers were abusing that tactic.
We can all agree that spearing muskies is BS that we would love not to have happen.
But banning the tactic completely because of the things done by a minority of spearers just doesn't seem to be the answer to me.
JS |
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| I agree with John. The question was posed earlier, "What does the muskie angling population WANT from the spearing community?" My reply to this question would be that I would be satisfied if the spearing population refrained from spearing muskies, and make sure all spearers were educated enough in that sport to know the difference between muskie and pike. I wouldn't ask for or ever expect spearing to be banned. I believe most muskie anglers would answer similarly, but of course not all. I'll be interested in hearing about the meeting. |
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| There is a meeting in Bemidji on the 21st of this month at 7pm at Cattails Restaurant. This is the old Northwoods Steakhouse. If you live in the area please attend. I will be attending as well as Brian Truax. The DNR will be discussing information relating to stocking and will address any concerns that we may have. |
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Posts: 335
Location: Minnesota | What meeting is it? Is it a DNR public hearing for something or is it a special meeting of some sorts?
Who is calling the meeting? Hopefully I can attend.
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| Also Rory with the Bemidji/Cass Lake Chapter of Muskies Inc. will be there with sign-up sheets for the chapter. |
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| I am not really sure the exact details. I talked briefly with Rory in Chicago about it. If you have his number I am sure that he would welcome a phone call. |
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Posts: 203
Location: Alexandria, Minnesota | I it would probably be good to notify the DNR, I know in my area they have caught a couple people spearing muskies this year. We have guys in the Alex area that brag about it and they think it is funny. I bet they dont think it is to funny when the dnr catches them. Some people will just never learn. |
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Posts: 59
| We went Ice Fishing on Lake Minocqua a couple years ago and saw some Native Americans out there taking picks and chopping through 20 inches of ice. They put pine branches in there to keep it open and set up a mini TP with sticks and blankets and three of them laid down for over an hour with handmade decoys and a handmade spear. They got a 48 inch muskie. The guy who speared it said that their family spears two a year and eats all of the meat. If the muskies are going to be speared by the Natives at least some of them are doing it as close to the traditional way as possible. It was sad to see that great fish go, but at least it was getting used. |
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