|
|
Posts: 28
| Hello again. I'm considering the advantages of through wire construction but I don't quite understand how it works when it comes to solid wood lures.
When making a molded lure body I suppose it could be quite easy. On a solid wood lure it doesn't seem like much room to work.
Do the screws connect to the wire somehow or are the hook hangers formed directly from the wire? If there aren't any advantages to it, please let me know that as well. I just can't stand the thought of a lure failing and losing a Muskie because of it.
Thanks again for everyones advice and enthusiasm.
Johnny PS. is there an option on this forum to be notified of responses? If so, I can't seem to find it.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 179
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan | This might help....one way of doing it.
 |
|
| |
|
Posts: 399
Location: Burton, Ohio | Dang Rod that looks great, Between you and Doug (Row Hunter) you guys have that down to a science. Looks great! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 28
| rjbass - 10/23/2008 12:18 AM
This might help....one way of doing it.
That's pretty cool. It's pretty much what I imagined for molded lures.
What about for lures that are one solid piece of wood? Any ideas?
Thanks,
Johnny
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | You line drill it like I do. You use a 12 inch drill bit and connect the hanger holes. Its not really that difficult with a little Practice. My Rippin Shad are only 4 inches and are easy. The 12 inch,15 inch and 21 inch Deepthreats are much more difficult but I have been doing it for years so its a no brainer for me. You need to study old school lures like the old Pikie creek chubs and baits like the old Wolfgang lures. Wire through is far superior to screw eyes when using softer woods. You can also slot the bellys and lay an insert in like Bill Crane and Big Game lures do. I think Slammers are built that way as well. Lokes are made in two halves like that picture. Hope this helps. Kingfisher |
|
| |
|
Posts: 6
| For my thru wire plugs, I first drill holes in the belly of the plug where I want to hang my hooks, usually at least half way thru the body of the plug. I then drill thru the length of the body, being sure that I hit the belly hook holes as I drill. I use pre-cut thru wire that already has a loop formed at one end. That becomes the line tie. As I thread the wire thru the body of the plug I slip swivels up into the belly hook holes and thread the thru wire thru one end of the swivel. Then I'll do my own wrap at the back of the plug, making a hook hanger back there.
I don't thread the wire and do the swivels. etc. until the plug is painted. Then I do the epoxy coats and final assembly.
There are a few other steps I do in between to be sure that the plug is weight balanced and water balanced as well before the final assembly that I've discovered are necessary to be sure that each plug swims the same.
The other thing you have to remember to do with a thru wired plug is that all those holes need to be sealed. After drilling, I dip my plug bodies in a 60/40 blend of valspar oil and linseed oil, let them soak for several minutes, wipe them down and then let them hang to fully dry out for several days before doing any paint work. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 179
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan | Tigger,
Those are Doug's pictures from another site....I was just sharing his info. I gave up doing through wire because it isn't necessary unless you are using Balsa or fishing Salt Water....unless you just like to do it, it is a pain and time consuming.
Rod |
|
| |
|
Posts: 226
Location: W. PA. | I hear ya Rod, it is a pita. I've heard people say "cedar and poplar are too soft, you have to through wire" The way I see it is most of the big time trolling lures are made from cedar and the majority of them just use screw eyes and you never hear of one coming apart. Wiley lures have been in the top 5 of the MI log books for years now with hundreds of fish every year and I've never heard of a screw eye ripping out of one. I might be wrong but I don't think they are even epoxied in. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 179
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan | Jerkin, you are right....I do epoxy mine in, but I have tried to pull them out of cedar without epoxy in a vice and the wood pulls apart before the screws pull out...Muskys could never pull that hard. I will argue this with anybody.....I have been Musky fishing for many years and although through wire is cool, it is over kill....Terminator's which are big time on Lake Saint Clair, are not epoxied in and are recommended not to screw in all the way so it won't mess with the action of the bait. They are definitely not epoxied in....he uses .092 screw eyes in birch......I am sure I will get flak from this, but it is a fact not theory.
Rod
Edited by rjbass 10/24/2008 8:40 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 28
| Thanks for all of the info guys.
Unless I here differently, I won't bother with it.
Johnny
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | I have had Wileys come apart from rotted wood and Terminators are hardwood. Neither rule on Lake St. Clair. Lokes hold the top spot and they are thru wire. I build both types . On my Slashers and Big 15 inch Dragon Claws I epoxy in the screw eyes so that the Wood is sealed ya dig? The epoxy penetrates and hardens the wood so the threads dont wear out from vibration. Wileys are nortorious for stripping out at the joint and at the tail eye. Old ones anyway.
Screw eyes will not hold in a 12,15 or 21 inch lure uless they are freakin huge. Over kill, ?? Hardly. Simply superior . Softer woods are used because they impart much more action then harder woods. I wish I could make all my cranks out of Cherry because I would never have to worry about my screw eyes coming out.
But here are some test facts. 2006 Talonz testing the new 7 inch Slasher on Lake St. Clair. Our boat and Craig Millers boat Heatwave(charters) We had 12 cedar Slashers and 12 made from Hardwoods like Cherry and Silver Birch(Terminater wood) . Hard wood baits caught zero fish. Cedar baits 5 Muskies the first day and 7 the second day. Quote from Miller( The Hardwood lures act a lot like terminaters) Ill take the cedar ones any day) That was his take on the test. Cedar and Balsa are the top woods for crankbait making because they impart much better action due to the high bouyancy of the wood. You can accept that or put your heads in the sand. Rapala has made billions using Balasa and wire thru. Best example right there. Try screw eyes in balsa and even with epoxy in the holes they will fail. With epoxy in cedar they will last longer than without but will never last as long as a wire thru . I know because I build both. I would never dream of trying a Deepthreat with screw eyes.
Here is another good point. Tuff Shads were first built from Cedar. These first baits caught far more fish than the Mahogany ones and even more than the plastic ones. You see he tried to make the lures tuffer(ha ha ) but lost the action due to denser woods. Mahogany is really the best of both worlds because its hard enough to hold screw eyes but light enough to be almost as reactive as cedar. The key word there is almost. I have several Cedar ones that are so much better than the Mahogany ones that we offed the others on ebay. Ill never get rid of the cedar ones.
Cedar has rules. Dont breath the dust, Glue the screw eyes or wire thru them and use acrylic paints or they fail.
So the bottom line is this. When you talking about crankbaits softer woods are far lighter and more bouyant and superior. With jerk baits and Glides the opposite applies. Heavy woods like Maple and Oak slide thru the water better and stay down with less weight. How could Rapala be wrong ha ha ha .  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | rjbass - 10/24/2008 9:19 PM
Jerkin, you are right....I do epoxy mine in, but I have tried to pull them out of cedar without epoxy in a vice and the wood pulls apart before the screws pull out...Muskys could never pull that hard. I will argue this with anybody.....I have been Musky fishing for many years and although through wire is cool, it is over kill....Terminator's which are big time on Lake Saint Clair, are not epoxied in and are recommended not to screw in all the way so it won't mess with the action of the bait. They are definitely not epoxied in....he uses .092 screw eyes in birch......I am sure I will get flak from this, but it is a fact not theory.
Rod
Rod try that same test after two years of pulling that lure without epoxy in the hole. The wood will soften all around the screw eye. Terminaters are silver birch which is hardwood. The problem with them is they are very hard to tune. His design is very good however and they do catch fish when tuned right. But the key word there is (tuned right). Even a poorly tuned Wiley will catch fish as well as any terminater and both fail to match the productive ness of the Loke over the years. I have Lokes that are 12 years old and still catching fish. I can repaint them for years to come and they will be around after I am dead and gone. Wire thru is far superior because they last.
One other thing, My slashers are Cedar with epoxied in screw eyes. If I could make them thru wire and speed up the manufacturing process at the same time I would do it in a heartbeat. Kingfisher
Edited by Kingfisher 10/24/2008 11:41 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 179
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan | Kingfisher,
I was not saying Wiley's or Terminator's were great lures, just using them as an example of commercial baits that do not use "through wire"...I was just stating my experience with building baits without "through wire".....I have caught many, many Muskies on my baits (Musky Rockets that I sell on my website) and never had a failure with the screweyes and have never had a complaint from my customers...I use cedar and some hardwood including Honduras Mahoghany which Loke's are made of... I knew these comments would get flak, but it is MHO.....and if you think "through wire" is superior then by all means keep building them....Truth, I have baits that I built, are 6 and 7 years old, have caught many Muskies and are still sound. I have a right to my opinion dude and just because you say so it doesn't mean jack to me.....You are not the only one here that builds baits and I don't beleive you are an authority on that subject. You make it sound like I or anybody else for that matter, don't know what they are talking about....
Rod |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | Didnt mean to ruffle your feathers. You stated it was overkill. The biggest company in the world says otherwise. Its a fact , cedar will soften around the screw eye after it gets wet enough times. Sooner or later they fail. Terminaters dont fail because they are much harder wood. But my reason for the test results was this, most of the best Crankbaits made that catch fish on a regular basis are soft wood baits. I am not knocking anyone especilly Wiley. Hell I build screw eye baits myself. There just isnt an easy way to wire thru those rascals so I dont. But taking the extra step as you and I both do by epoxying in those screw eyes gives the lures a much longer life would'nt you agree? the epoxy seals the inside and hardens that wood making it as hard as oak. As far as Balsa goes I think its wash there, they are all wire forms of some kind. And I respect yours and everyone eles opinion. But there are also facts concerning wood and wear. Soft woods present many problems to us Bait makers and there have been many cool innovations to deal with those problems. Wire thru was one of the first but certainly not the last. I have considered using stainless steel frames, Hardwood inserts, Plastic inserts, Plying hardwood into the soft wood bodies. There are countless Ideas out there. All I said was try that same test with a screw eye that has not been epoxied in after it has been weakened over time. My guess is it will pull right out. I know mine do.
Also guys I have repaired quite a few baits for different guys over the years. I had several Cedar cranks that had problems with the joint and tail hooks working loose from vibration and fish. They hadnt failed yet but the owner was concerned enough to ask me if I could fix them. They had screw eyes that were to short and too small in diameter for the bait. I dried them out good and went to the .092 stainless ones and went to longer ones and epoxied them in. He was very happy with the repair. If the builder would have done that in the first place ,my client probably would not have had any problems. So hey sorry if I came off a little starchy .Peace, Kingfisher
Edited by Kingfisher 10/25/2008 12:28 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 399
Location: Burton, Ohio | Thru wiring in an interesting thing. When I first started making the baits I thought that this is a way to make my boat payment. I was not a musky fisherman at the time. I was looking at the lure thing as a type of a second job to help pay for my fishing addiction. I asked some musky fisherman what features in a musky lure that were perferred on a high quality bait. Two things kept comming up.......... thru wire and nice eyes. The action was important also! LOL
I started to make the baits with the thru wire and the glass eyes. As I got a couple of hundred baits done I have started to come to the realization that the thru wire can be an "over-kill" I started to use the .092 by 1-1/2" length screw eyes. I have done many tests on how they hold. I was amazed how the screw eyes hold!!!!!!! I have hung my 215 pound body off of them. Fatfingers (Vince) and I have discussed this many many time also. Vince would tell me that it was over-kill. I am starting to change my thoughts on the thru wire.
Last weekend I was over a luremakers house that make the Mordas minnows. The thru wire came up also that day. He had told me that the maximum strength of the screw eye happens after 4 full threads of screw eye. He also told me that he did a test with a scale and a lure tied to a tree. The maximum pounds that he could get on the scale was seven pounds from the rod and line.
I will keep doing the thru-wire construction. It gives the people " a sound mind" My personal baits have the screw eyes.
Definetely the epoxy on the screw eyes helps seal the threads and helps with the holding power.
John |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | Hi John, nice to see you on this thread. You and Mike Mordas are correct as to the strength of .092 screw eyes. In a way as far as strength goes wire thru is overkill. But that is not really why many prefer wire thru. Screw eyes start to fail when wood starts to get punky. I have talked in depth with Mike during a weekend Musky fishing trip on st. Clair during my 2006 season. We were both staying in Belle river area. Mike uses silicone to seal his eyes in. I have several of his baits and I like his construction better than Wileys or Leos. But sooner or later the wood gets weak and when it does they get loose and start turning and develop slop and eventully pull out if not fixed.
You use tons of top coat and that helps tons to keep the wood intact and dry but many cedar baits do not get that premium finish and once the water gets in around the threads it is only a matter of time before they fail. With a wire thru bait the wood can be rotted and chewed to pieces and they still retain thier strength. Take a look at the Big Fish charters booth(Tom Loy) and his display of Lokes from 20 years ago. They have been chewed beyond recognition and they are still as tough as they were the day they went out the door. Wire thru does not depend on the wood to be strong.
With hard wood there is no need to do wire thru. I have Little Claws that are 10 year old and still going strong (oak) never even epoxied them in. But with cedar and especilly soft cedar epoxy is nessesary to help keep those threads from stripping out. I wish I had taken pictures of the Wileys that I repaired. The holes had become kind of oval shaped at the joint from the tail wagging back and forth. These were 8 inch models and should have been built with longer eyes.
So yes as far as strength goes wire thru is over kill but a wire thru lure will out last a screw eye lure every time when you are talking cedar or any other soft light wood. By the way congrats on the big dollars your baits have been bringing in on Ebay. Wow!! You are starting to look like the next Wishmaster eh? Kingfisher
Edited by Kingfisher 10/25/2008 3:08 PM
|
|
| |
|
|
imho when a cranks is starting to absorb a lot of water its time to think to put it on the garbage,trughwire or not.
leos and wileys are notorious for big fish,not what you said
its funny to see how you treat those cranks,both have,and will caught more skies than every baits you can dream of.cranks builder from pa are top notch,and even whit screw eye they will continue to caught very big fishs. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1529
| wow guys. i build a few every year, even do custom painting. one thing not argued or discussed is. pricing.... . a bait trolled at 4mph covers 8 feet per scond. joints clacking they endure hardships. toothy critters chomping. baits have a life cycle. . built well enough its owner will get many happy slimey hours running it. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 399
Location: Burton, Ohio | Like woodie stated that baits take a beating for sure. The click/clacking from running at high speeds along with teeth abuse! LOL You can prolong the life of the bait with a little maintance every year for sure. It is hard to retire that favorite one at times.
King fisher, I hear you on the punky wood . Water gets in the wood and never really dries out while sitting in your tackle box. You are right about the thru - wire not having to worry about that.
I really enjoyed stopping over Mordas's house and seeing his operation. I can't believe he lives only 25 minutes away from me and I pass only 3 miles from his house on my way to my musky spot. Hundreds of baits hanging around. For me doing 3 to 4 lures a week is hardwork! LOL Amazing how you guys produce the numbers of lures. I have a better understanding know how it is done now.
Thanks for the compliments about the ebay lures. I would have never imagined that happening in my wildest dreams! I take alot of pride in the making of them. I know the guys wish I could make them faster but I can't.
Pa. luremakers are incredible builders. I hope someday to meet and become friends with them. I have a couple Wileys and a Leo jointed black sucker. Wileys and and Leo's caught fish off my boat with very little time in the water! I was at the Butler Musky show last year and many of those guys were there. I usually cruise around isles and make a couple of purchases and scoot out of there. This year I will try to engage in conversations with them.
Not to get off the subject but I thought I would bring this up. In the previous posts on this thread guys have mentioned that they have some lures that are chewed beyond recognition. This brings up the point............. Do fish hit based on action or color? Is the action of those baits keep triggering the strike or is it the color pattern?
John |
|
| |
|
Posts: 28
| I'm sure color and pattern sometimes plays a role but I think it's mostly the action. The lure that got chewed up bad this season doesn't have hardly any paint left on it but it continues to produce strikes.
Johnny
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 28
| Tigger - 10/26/2008 8:01 AM Like woodie stated that baits take a beating for sure. The click/clacking from running at high speeds along with teeth abuse! LOL You can prolong the life of the bait with a little maintance every year for sure. It is hard to retire that favorite one at times. King fisher, I hear you on the punky wood . Water gets in the wood and never really dries out while sitting in your tackle box. You are right about the thru - wire not having to worry about that. I really enjoyed stopping over Mordas's house and seeing his operation. I can't believe he lives only 25 minutes away from me and I pass only 3 miles from his house on my way to my musky spot. Hundreds of baits hanging around. For me doing 3 to 4 lures a week is hardwork! LOL Amazing how you guys produce the numbers of lures. I have a better understanding know how it is done now. Thanks for the compliments about the ebay lures. I would have never imagined that happening in my wildest dreams! I take alot of pride in the making of them. I know the guys wish I could make them faster but I can't. Pa. luremakers are incredible builders. I hope someday to meet and become friends with them. I have a couple Wileys and a Leo jointed black sucker. Wileys and and Leo's caught fish off my boat with very little time in the water! I was at the Butler Musky show last year and many of those guys were there. I usually cruise around isles and make a couple of purchases and scoot out of there. This year I will try to engage in conversations with them.
Not to get off the subject but I thought I would bring this up. In the previous posts on this thread guys have mentioned that they have some lures that are chewed beyond recognition. This brings up the point............. Do fish hit based on action or color? Is the action of those baits keep triggering the strike or is it the color pattern? John I'm curious to know what others think about this as well. Action, color, pattern, size, shape, etc. What seems most important to you? Lets start a new thread to debate this idea as it doesn't pertain to the through wire construction conversation. It will be listed as "Color or Action" Thanks, Johnny
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 432
Location: mpls |
So the bottom line is this. When you talking about crankbaits softer woods are far lighter and more bouyant and superior. With jerk baits and Glides the opposite applies. Heavy woods like Maple and Oak slide thru the water better and stay down with less weight. How could Rapala be wrong ha ha ha . ;)
Not to get off the subject again, but I have to disagree with Kingfishers assesment of what makes a good glider. Heavier , denser woods my be easier to work with, but like cranks- it's the soft woods that rule. The reasons are similar to the reasons given for cranks. Soft woods are always fighting their bouyancy, you get more wobble,bellyroll and flash. Hard woods may glide in the water,but lack that something "special". Also, hardwoods may have density differences within a small area making for inconsistent lures if the maker is producing a large run. One last thing, hardwoods just don't take sealer like Cedar does, it is the sealer that makes the lure last- more so than the topcoat.
Other than that, I agree with a lot of what Kingfisher says. Most people forget that at most, a reels drag will give at about 40 pounds of pressure. The drag will let go WAY before the screw eyes pull out on a fish. Wire through is safety for the long term, although a lure with a THICK coat of epoxy will last a LONG time. By the time a well sealed and coated lure is absorbing enough water to rot through- it's time to replace the plug 
Joe
Trueglide.com |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | I really enjoy these types of discussions.
I haven't build enough cranks to know what wood works best but my feeling is that the cedar kingfisher is using would be hard to beat. I know Joe and many other jerkbait builders like to use cedar and who could argue with his success not to mention other users of cedar like Hughes River. Hard maple is my wood of choice for glider action but #*^@ is it ever a hassle to work with........it tears up router blades and is exhausting to shape.
As for strength, cedar is more than strong enough for screw eyes on jerk baits. For cranks that are always wobbling, maybe hitting the bottom now and then, etc., I can see where through-wire would provide additional strength particularly at the tow point. I wouldn't change anything on your cranks Kingfisher, they are top notch and beautifully built. I could learn much from you.
There is no doubt that many woods are stronger than cedar but how much strength do you need? You can pull a screw eye right out of cedar with a claw hammer but as Joe has said, a proper functioning drag will never get close to the pressure needed to pull a screw out. If there was a problem with cedar we would have known by now because many of the top jerkbait builders in the market have used it for years.
Western red cedar was a gift given to lure builders..........
Jed V.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 5
| All I know after reading this is that every single lure maker mentioned cares about the quality of there product wether they make one bait or thousands. The environment that these lures run in is harse. They are going to take punishment. Use whatever lures you are confident in. I believe that all lures have what I call harmonics. Some just work better at certain speeds. Not because they swim better but they put off a vibration that the fish like better. My last bit of two cents goes like this: I know that there is not a better feeling in the world than catching a fish on your own bait that you made. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | mota - 10/26/2008 7:38 AM
imho when a cranks is starting to absorb a lot of water its time to think to put it on the garbage,trughwire or not.
leos and wileys are notorious for big fish,not what you said
its funny to see how you treat those cranks,both have,and will caught more skies than every baits you can dream of.cranks builder from pa are top notch,and even whit screw eye they will continue to caught very big fishs.
I should not have singled those two out. The records of both Leos and Wileys are tremendous. There are 20 to 30 makes of cedar cranks that are nortorious including my own that fail due to screw eyes loosening up in cedar baits. Ask Dale Wiley what he had to do to fix it. He had to epoxy them in. I learned that from him at Pittsburg.There are a lot of baits out there straights and jointeds that have had serious problems with cedar and screw eyes. Mike mordas told me that he had issues with smaller diameter screw eyes so he went to .092 and used a silicone sealer to seal them in. I use 3500 lb epoxy and run it into the holes with a .032 WOUND GUITAR STRING. Ithen roll the screw eye in the same glue before threading it in. I think most of the bait makers using screw eys in cedar have found one way or another to solve the problem.
But the mans question was whether or not Wire thru is nessasary. I think in some cases it is .Kingfisher |
|
| |
|
Posts: 351
| I agree with rjbass. I think it is overkill. A properly epoxied .92 screw eye will hold up well especially if the bait is properly top-coated. There are few guys who've caught more or bigger fish than rj and his baits are certainly effective and proven beyond any question.
I soak my cedar baits (and all my baits) in sanding sealer overnight and that further hardens the cedar and allows the sealer to penetrate inside the hook hanger holes which I pre-drill prior to soaking the baits.
The twisting of the wire on thru-eye installation creates a mass of metal than can flex at the tail and nose of the bait. The doubling of the wire in the belly hook hanger also allows any torque to create the chance for the wires to slide against each other and twist because it is a metal to metal situation. Both situation allow the necessarily larger holes to tend to round out and allow water into the bait. A quality stainless screw eye bites the wood because of the threads and the screw eye loop onto which the split ring is attached is stronger than most wire used for through-wiring.
If you catch a fish that can pull the screw eyes out of my baits, you don't want it in the boat with you. 
I think that this is one of the subjects which takes on a life of its own after it is discussed long enough. In the real world, the rod and the drag will always preclude the generation of enough torque to rip out a screw eye on a well-made bait.
I also think that some of the popular brands of baits are purposely built to last only a few years. Some of them are in my opinion, clearly inferior to what most quality basement builders provide. That is okay, because they need to have repeat business, but I have used a variety of home brew baits from quality builders and it is clear to me that the life expectancy of the quality hand-made baits is considerably longer in general. That includes the fit and finish of the paint work, the hook hangers and the lip on cranks.
To further expose this can of worms, I am also of the opinion that enamel paints are generally superior over time to water based paints. If we're to accept the idea that the finish will eventually be breached by hook rash or teeth, then enamels will last longer because the water simply does not "pass through" the plane of paint as quickly. I've used both and still do, but my confidence in enamels is higher based upon experience. I do not baby my baits or any bait for that matter. As an example, I frequently rack the baits off rocks and humps to trigger strikes.
A bait with the appropriate amount of sealer in the wood, properly installed screw eyes, the appropriate type and quality of paint and a properly applied top coat is about as bullet-proof a lure as can be had.
I still occasionally try to thru-wire a bait or two. I do it because its fun and I just enjoy trying different things.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1106
Location: Muskegon Michigan | I think we all agree that as far as strength goes wire thru is not an advantage. But all you have to do is compare a 20 year old Loke to a 20 year old Screw eye bait and the question is answered. You also answer another question regarding the use of thicker top coats. Loke for instance only coats with one coat of varnish and because they are wire thru it does not matter. The wood can get wet and it does not matter. They can catch 200 fish on one lure and it does not matter. They retain thier strength because the lure does not depend on the wood for its strength. A loke is the best example of why wire thru is better. If I wanted to get the same durability out of a Bait built like a loke but used screw eyes instead I would have to put an 1/8 of an inch of top coat on it and by the time I add all that weight the lure will not run the same. Baits like Wileys are light because they do not put heavy top coats on them. The same with My slashers. They are light and that is what makes them wander and move like they do. Adding extra coats of epoxy, soaking the baits in hardener and using bigger screw eyes all add weight and it has been proven at least on Lake St Clair that keeping the baits light puts more fish in the boats.
Captain Craig Miller told me this, he said I would rather replace a lure in two years because its torn to shreds than have a bullet proof bait that doesnt get bit. Whether you use heavier woods, more top coats or plastic bodies it all ends up the same. Less strikes. Facts are this on St. Clair. The top two lures for fish production are Nils and Loke. Wiley, Mordas,Woodies, Leos,my Slashers, Lappers, Maisons, Artifacts and about two dozen more alol catch tons of fish and all of them have had problems with screweyes and long lasting durability. I tried using multiple top coats, stike percentage went down. I tried using hardwood, zero strikes. The Captains on St. Clair pretty much will all agree that the best built baits on St. Clair are Nils and Lokes. They will also tell you that cedar baits catch more fish but dont last as long. But that is the challunge isnt it? How to build a bait that is light enough to catch tons of fish and tough enough to last for many many years. I think of all the lures on St. Clair Loke has come the closest to getting to that level. I have 40 of them and 10 of them were bought in 1996. 6 of those 10 have been responsible for over 50 fish each. and they are still as tough as they were the day I bought them and they were only coated with one brushed on coat of varnish. Ill post pictures of them tonight.
But Ill agree, I dont think a Musky can pull a screw eye out of a new lure or a lure in good condition. But just look at all the crap we have to do to make the wood hold up. Loke just paints them and puts on one thin coat of varnish. Wire thru is superior because of that. No extra preparation, no over night soaking, no extra top coats, no epoxy in the hook holders, just 062 stainless steel wire forms. John Mulliet is an old school craftsman and one of greatest lure makers of all time in my book. Who else BESIDE Rapala has sold a 15 dollar lure that can stand up to 20 years of tremendous abuse and keep working. Ex Georgian bay guide Shawn McCarthy told me once that Lokes were the best built lures in the Musky world. That was true then. Now I have to say with guys like Tigger, Fat fingers and many others who go way past the Loke finish I have to say That the Loke is now the Best Lure ever built that sold for 15 bucks. That is affordable quality that lasts. If those baits were not wire thru they would not hold up without all of the extra stuff we have to do to make our screw eye baits match up. Mike |
|
| |
|
Posts: 351
| Kingfisher, good post and very informative. However, the only place we'd part ways is where the assumption goes so far as to presume that what works on St Clair is an universal truth. I've tried cedar and hardwood baits on our waters and the hardwoods, specifically poplar performs as well, if not better. I have some through-wired cedar baits in classic patterns that hardly produce.
Furthermore, I build one particular bait I call the Flatshad that is hands down number one on our waters, day in and day out, and its action is subtle in comparison to most baits out there.
We have a number of great waters to fish and the variety of lures that produces runs from the Lee Sisson crank, which accounts for at least 60% of all the muskies in one body of water, and the Magnum Wiggle Wart is a great producer on another, to the baits size of Tiggers and all points in between. You'd be hard-pressed to narrow the experienced musky fisherman in our areas to one bait body style or construction choice.
Lastly, few guys around here even have a Loke in their boxes because it works only during a small window of time in comparison with other classic body configurations. Yet I accept the facts you present as to how well it works specifically on St Clair. It is simply not a universal truth that using hardwoods or plastic baits will always trigger less strikes on all bodies of water. Glider for example require the appropriate weighting. I build certain shallow water cranks with the idea of having them suspend between a series of twitches while casting.
Anytime you go so far as to say one type of lure is the best, you must rule out an entire series of everyday musky fishing conditions to be accurate or correct.
The guys from Georgian Bay represent only their conditions and their areas. Same with St. Clair. I would consider their opinions as HIGHLY valuable but ONLY to that degree. In any area, some guys pretty much only troll. Other prefer to cast and yet other do both. Certain baits are almost trolling-only baits by default. They are almost useless for casting, usually produce less, and of course, while casting the action required to trigger strikes varies from radical to predictable. The best producing jerk baits, for example, often have dive and rise action and a very predictable rhythm (as opposed to the erratic action which is desirable in a bait being trolled). Other great jerk baits nearly suspend while achieving a subsurface walk the dog action.
Best bait ever built? Who could ever pick one? And how could they ever do it? If I had to pick just one, it would be the Lee Sisson crankbait based upon the same criteria you chose. It is THE number one producer on our the number one musky lake in our state. It costs about $5 and can be readily had. But when they fish are hitting nothing but jerk baits its useless, despite the cost, the construction, the paint, etc.
Normally, the discussion of thru-wire is about toughness. We do agree that its overkill.
Finally, I am not so sure that 5 thin coats of envirotex epoxy and two small screw eyes add more weight than a heavy gauge wire which runs from stem to stern and requires multiples wire twists fore and aft to secure it. If there's a difference it is a matter of a few grains at best and compared to the buoyancy levied by a chunk of cedar. I would conclude that the resulting difference, if any, would be negligible, if even measurable, but...I will be the first to agree with you in that on certain bodies of water that could be all the difference in the world and under specific conditions such as trolling that particular body configuration as compared to other types or of course, casting conditions, or other areas of the musky territories.
I respect your opinion, Kingfisher. At the end of the day, it is both a matter of degree, local and personal experience, and as always, opinion. I would add that most normal discussion of thru-wire center around the strength of the bait, not the action.
Ultimately we agree that it is overkill. After all, like woodie once said. "We're not fishing for ten foot sharks here."
|
|
| |
