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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Mike,
I'm thinking NO FREAKIN' WAY!
If the purse is not EQUAL between the PRO and CO... I see absolutely NO WAY they could fish together as a "team". To me... the format would simply be two guys fishing from the same boat. About the only incentive I'd see for a CO would be to basically get a GUIDED TRIP with the chance at winning a small amount of money.
For a MUSKY tournament... all I'd see for a benefit is it would be like having a JUDGE in each boat to verify a catch.... and that is about the ONLY benefit I'd see from such a format.
Count me out on such a format... as a PRO or a Co. Just not my cup of tea.
I think having FEWER tournaments with larger entry fees to fund the payout is about the only realistic option on the table. And for the really big payouts... I feel an elimination type format is important... otherwise you may as well go to Vegas and get into some legit High-Stakes gambling. |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | jlong - 1/17/2008 2:16 PM
Mike,
I'm thinking NO FREAKIN' WAY!
If the purse is not EQUAL between the PRO and CO... I see absolutely NO WAY they could fish together as a "team". To me... the format would simply be two guys fishing from the same boat. About the only incentive I'd see for a CO would be to basically get a GUIDED TRIP with the chance at winning a small amount of money.
For a MUSKY tournament... all I'd see for a benefit is it would be like having a JUDGE in each boat to verify a catch.... and that is about the ONLY benefit I'd see from such a format.
Count me out on such a format... as a PRO or a Co. Just not my cup of tea.
I think having FEWER tournaments with larger entry fees to fund the payout is about the only realistic option on the table. And for the really big payouts... I feel an elimination type format is important... otherwise you may as well go to Vegas and get into some legit High-Stakes gambling.
Jlong,
You hit the nail on the head with part of your answer. I have a lot of experience with working on ProAm tournament format. The main reasons why guys fish a ProAm event is specifically is to shorten the learning curve. When I worked for the PWT, as a co-angler, there isn't a huge pay day for the amateur. But the main purpose is that your getting to fish multiple days with supposedly "pros" guys that know what there doing and hopefully learn from them and get to know new water. If your fishing as a co-angler for the payout, well, then your fishing the circuit for the very wrong reason.
Now don't get me wrong, there can be some very nice prizes, but nothing near what a Pro would get. The co-angler that wins a PWT event, he recieves a brand new Lund/Mercury boat package, valued about $15,000. Now I believe the guys on the FLW side get cash and a bit more than the PWT but still nothing near the Pro payouts. You have to take into consideration what kind of money the pro is dumping into the game versus a co-angler showing up a day before the event. I could write totals down for you to the cent if you'd like on what a pro spends, and let me tell you, it's nothing near what a co-angler can get away with spending.
But all in all, I think the ProAm would be a great thing. It sure would cut out any cheating going on. I was in the midst of issues happening, co-anglers don't have an issue coming up to a tournament director and saying hey, my pro did something wrong, am I going to get punished for it?
But just my thought.
Edited by Merckid 1/17/2008 2:43 PM
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Posts: 8782
| I wouldn't fish it. Seemed pretty appealing at first, but after seeing the way the Co/Pro thing is structured? No way.
The idea of entering as a Co doesn't bother me, but having to rely on someone else's gear? I trust MY equipment, because I am anal about maintaining it. I trust my ability to use it in a way that is effective, and to choose presentations that compliment my partners presentations. Part of what makes a good team is the contrast of ideas, different presentations, a different flair. Collaboration and teamwork, putting a fish in the boat that WE worked to put in the boat.
Fishing out of someone else's boat, using their gear, having them dictate everything? That's not a tournament, that's a LESSON. Which is fine, but not in a tournament.
When there's money on the line, I want to be able to use everything at our disposal. That means gear, ideas, planning strategies, and using what we figured out yesterday to put a fish in the boat today. And if I'm going to take money for fishing with a partner, I want to feel like we worked together to win that money.
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What is the difference (as far as the 'gamble' entering the event) with an elimination format? The Pro, who after all is tallied, catches the most fish wins, the elimination format just takes out the guy who didn't connect enough the first couple days. Is that bad luck...or something else? That said, I'd like to see the field narrowed to 10 as of the last day for promotional reasons. Easier to put am media person in 10 boats than the top 30. And, the top ten get some great press on the final day. 'Making the cut' is pretty cool.
I'll take a shot at clearing it up
The Boater/Pro:
Usually is a seasoned angler who has the gear, abilities, dough, and as Shep put it, Nads to go for the brass ring. This format accentuates the Pro's abilities, showcases them in fact. This the sponsors want.
He/She runs the boat, makes all the calls, and has all the gear. As Shep so aptly described, both the Pro and the Co hope for a good draw. There are incentives including awards for the Pro who is 'best respected' for his/her interaction with the Co every day; this isn't something that the Tournament overlooks. Pre event meetings for the Co Anglers are held to let them know what is expected of them, same thing for the Pros. Look to the top tier PMTT guys, they are 'Pros' who might fit this model.
As the circuit ages, the cream will naturally rise to the top and a 'top 50' emerges. if there are more than one large circuit, a top 100 or even top 200 can be defined. Those who desire to be at the top and are not yet there compete for that reason, plus many more too numerous to go into; a 'living' strictly fishing tournaments isn't one of them with those who make it and fish every year.
One has to 'start' somewhere, so it's the field of Co Anglers who supply the most new ' Boaters' or 'Pros'. In the walleye world, some Co Anglers come form the Team circuit formats, ready to train for the Big Leagues. The FLW added an additional ladder up with the FLW League, a circuit with extensive talent, and a place to try it out and see if this sort of thing is 'for you' without the attempt to go Pro from the start.
The Co Angler is usually a person who chases the fish alot, is pretty well versed on how to catch them, but is not yet at the level of experience of the Pro/Boater. The Co usually has a good rig, but usually his/her dream rig is what they fish from during the event. Some of the Cos enter a single event a year as a vacation or special getaway. Some fish the whole circuit because it's a challenge and is fun. Some fish as a Co to learn the ropes and the whole layout of how it's done, with the intent of someday entering as a Boater. And, 10 to 15 grand isn't anything to sneeze at, there's lots of team events that don't pay that out for first place.
Not to mention some of the Co Anglers just want badly to get in the boat and spend a few days with some of the best promoted talent out there just to be able to say, "I fished a day with Mr. Walleye Gary Roach himself, and he said I was a great...". It's a 'celebrity' sort of issue, and that is driven by...
The Media.
Addict,
You think like a Boater. It'd be your gear, your plan, and your pattern developed from the day before. You'd make for a crabby Co Angler, I fear...and the Pros oddly enough don't usually offer to give $50 K (Half of a fully qualified FLW Tour Win last year) to the Cos who fished with them when it's all said and done. You win, you earned it.
Interestingly, there are many Pros on one circuit who fish as a Co on another to 'check it out', or have to take a break for financial or other reasons and still want to be 'in the game' so fish as a Co a couple events. |
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Posts: 5874
| Keep an open mind, Jason. Why does the disparity in payouts bother you so? You are not competing with the Co-angler. You are competing with the other Pros. Trust me, you get the right Co, and he'll work just as hard as you do to try to make your team for that day a success.
As for incentive for the Co? Yes, the one you metioned is valid. But Steve has included other incentives. Just think of it. Your co-anglers leave the tourney, and tell all their friends. "I got to fish with Jason Long. He won that $80K Bob M tourney. Man, did I ever learn alot. The guy is a machine. He can see through, and walk on, water! Man, what a day! Best money I ever spent. Did I mention I got to net a 45" er for him? That was cool!"
Addict, I see you as a boater anyway, but just to answer your question. It's not llike the Pro has to call all the shots. I know I would try to determine my Co's experience, and maybe even familiarity with the water. If I felt, I could allow him to choose the lure he wanted. It's not a hard and fast rule that the co can't offer anything. Just cannot provide pattern or location info from the previous days Pro.
As for eliminating cheating in a team format. No way to 100% eliminate it. If two guys want to cheat, they'll find a way to, and will try. About the best deterrent is the polygragh. That and threat of legal action and prosecution. But I am not saying the Pro/Am format is perfect either. You will need other teams to be watching, and reporting suspicious activity.
Steve really shed a lot of light on the Pro/Am format. |
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Posts: 8782
| "You'd make for a crabby Co Angler, I fear... "
LOL!! It would depend on the pro, Steve. There are many guys out there who I have a tremendous amount of respect for, who honestly I'd be honored just to spend a day with them in the boat. It's part of why I hire guides, and as many here have witnessed, I usually just sort of... absorb. I do that because their level of skill, knowledge, and experience is of great value to me, and I trust that my input is not needed or welcomed.
But in a tournament, the idea of teamwork and collective accomplishment is what appeals to me. I wouldn't fish a tournament with someone if I felt I couldn't make a valid contribution beyond just having another body in the boat casting.
I suppose that media, sponsorship, and "celebrity" are what drives this sort of event though, and that's a whole different thing. My passion is figuring out (and catching) these fish. I'd like to be accomplished enough at it some day to make some money doing it. But I have no desire to be a celebrity, or even be around them. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Regarding the Pro/Am format, my first instinct was this will never work in the musky world. However as I think about it more and realize that the Musky World is MUCH bigger than the Internet Musky World, this would probably work pretty well.
Probably not the best cup of tea for many die hard musky guys. Most of the guys that frequent these sites think as pros(boaters) like Steve says. That’s why we are here we are putting next years game plan together. But man it still amazes me the number of people that fish multiple events and the entire circuit of the PMTT and WMT. There are some guys I know that only fish musky when they are fishing a tourney or prefishing for a tourney. Those are the type of people that would fish an event like this.
I also think there are enough up and coming musky fishermen with lots of coin in there pocket that would jump at the chance to spend 2 or 3 days on the water with someone who knows what they are doing. The assumption is that the pro has at least spent some time on the body of water in question. These guys typically don’t spend hours a week on the internet trying to get better. They fish when they can fish and don’t think much about it otherwise. Those are your co-angers.
Steve nothing completely eliminates the luck factor from fishing good or bad, even more so for musky fishing. But any event that requires catching fish on multiple days makes the cream rise that much higher. Catching multiple fish in one or two days using the same pattern, does not impress me as much as catching multiple fish over the course of 4 or 5 days with changing weather conditions. There is still luck involved but skill will win more often. Now a circuit does pretty much the same thing, because you need to earn points in each event on many different lakes over many differing weather conditions. The tournament musky fishermen that impress me the most are the guys that are consistently finishing in the top 10 teams of the year when all the events are said and done. That's where the big bucks should go.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 2378
| What's a pro in the muskie world? |
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Posts: 382
| Anyone who can pony up the dollars to enter as a pro and has a boat. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Baldy,
'Pro' also stands for 'Boater' in this case until that can be established by a few years running data on a circuit or two. In short order that question goes away. Same question was asked of the 'bass world' and the 'walleye world' not all that long ago.
'Pro' can mean Promotional as well as Professional, and the terms are used simultaneously.Pro Staff for most products means Promotional, far as I can see. |
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| I think addict needs a boat first to be a "boater" ey?
I don't see the pro/co format ever taking off in the muskie world. imo. |
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Posts: 8782
| You sir, are a pro in the muskie world. Why, you've even got a lure business!!
I've spent a big chunk of my life in the music business, which as an artist is about as lucrative as musky fishing. Technically you are considered a "professional" musician if you are currently being paid, or have ever been paid to practice your craft. "making a living at it" is a relative term. I know many "professional musicians" who are technically making their living at music. Many of them share an apartment in the city in a shady part of town with 5 of their friends and sometimes don't eat because they can't afford food.
To me, a "professional" in the musky world is someone who makes enough money in various things musky fishing that they don't need to have a regular job.
Now that I think about it... I'm not sure I know anyone like that
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The Team Concept hasn't exactly taken the Muskie fishing world by storm, either. Show me any Muskie event ever that looks remotely like this:
2007 FLW Tour Final
Ist photo, Day Two FLW Championship, The Cut to the Top Ten
Location, Celeveland, Ohio, Lake Erie
2nd Photo: Final Day Big Fish Award
3rd photo: Hot seat for current leader as last angler weighs, yes that's Al Lindner sitting on the edge of the stage doing an interview.
4th and 5th photo
Crowning the Champion
The last image is of the National Anthem at the start of Day Three, at the beginning of the day as the field got ready to hit the water. The pros and Cos are looking at a production stage with a guest singer, the Mayor, and a Senator handy.
This was supposedly impossible a few years back; many of the same arguments I see here in this thread.
The media was there in force, including Lindner Media, shooting the event for TV and a host of other TV, radio, and web media.
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Posts: 32
Location: Frankfort, IL | I fished the PMTT Cass Lake this year with Josh Borovsky when his partner Troy Zuelke couldn't make it. To me as a non-boater it was a great opportunity to fish a tournament with an accomplished guide and tournament angler. Josh initially posted that he was looking for a partner here on MuskieFirst and I jumped at the opportunity.
Initially Josh was concerned about fishing a tournament with an unknown. I agreed to pay his guides fees for the days (he had a baby on the way and could use the guaranteed cash) and I had the option of spliting the entrance fees/winnings or he would cover the fees and take the winnings. I took the first.
We spoke on the phone a couple times before the event about his expectations and he demonstrated his preferred netting techniques, proper figure 8ing, fish fighting, etc. during our "lengthy" 45 minutes of prefishing.
I think Josh would attest that I worked as hard as anyone (burning DCG's at warp speed all day is hard work) who has shared a boat with him as I didn't want to embarass him or myself.
It was a wonderful experience for myself and one that I would like to repeat as often as possible.
Ken Moss |
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| I fished the PMTT Cass Lake this year with Josh Borovsky ... I agreed to pay his guides fees for the days ... and I had the option of spliting the entrance fees/winnings ...
It was a wonderful experience for myself and one that I would like to repeat as often as possible.
thanks for posting that, Ken.
when i saw Josh's deal last year, i was very curious if anyone would take him up on the offer, and how it would go. sounds like it worked out well for both of you.
i can see the incentive from the "CO" point of view, much like in your case, you're essentially paying for a couple days of guided fishing, it just happens to be during a competitive event.
it's harder to see the incentive for the "PRO" if the entry fees are that much higher. in your case, the Pro/Co paid equal entry fees. higher Pro fees would put a lot of pressure on getting sponsors willing to pay for them, etc., and i don't know if there's enough of that to go around at this point in the muskie tournament world.
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | BALDY - 1/17/2008 3:51 PM
What's a pro in the muskie world?
LMAO ... that's a good one Baldy
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