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| I'll ask this again:
Has anyone here ever received a citation for illegal trolling when fishing suckers and casting in the fall?
I think its safe to say we ALL do it, and probably in a way that COULD be interpreted as illegal. If it were as big of a problem as we are making it out to be, then we'd be getting tickets over it, wouldn't we?
My personal views on trolling aside, allowing trolling because nobody can seem to interpret the law in a consistent way is NOT the answer. |
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| I talked to a guy a couple weeks ago that got a ticket on an LDF lake in Vilas...suckers out while casting...he had his on bobbers though so he was asking for it...it was a WI DNR guy, not a tribal police guy |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Short answer, according to a warden I talked to, is yes. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | when i have a sucker out it's dead-sticked by the boat and i position cast ... believe that moving fish into the boat will trigger a fish ... the foot isn't on the trolling motor much and the sucker is vertical to the rod tip ... maybe i'll get a ticket and maybe not ... otherwise using the wind when i can. i feel comfortable that i'm working within the intent of the law and anyone ticketing me would be looking at a fine line and probably be having a bad day ... i've been fishing this way without a problem for 12 years up here and don't expect any problems nor have i had any problems ... i believe if you have a jillion lines out on bobbers on a calm day with the tm in the water that you are asking for trouble and deserve the ticket ...
the reason i say legalizing trolling and sucker fishing is mutually exclusive is that by legalizing trolling ... sure you'll clarify the sucker position fishing thing ... but it opens pandora's box on trolling artificials with boards, down-riggers and changes the whole dynamic of northern wisconsin fishing and the use of the small lakes. not seeing this is hard for me to imagine and not being able to separate the two ... (self-edit)
reminder ... i'm talking the small lakes of northern wisco. in oneida and vilas counties ... |
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Location: Rhinelander, WI | I forgot to address this above: Brad B said: “All of this is because musky fishermen want to be able to be on their bowmount and drag a sucker around while casting from the bow?
First off, that IS trolling. Position fishing is using your bow mount to counter the effects of the wind to remain over a specific spot on a lake or in the case of a river, to ensure that your boat is floating down stream at the same rate as the current. If you are using a motor to move from spot to spot on a lake and your dragging a bait while you do this, your CLEARLY breaking the law.” I posted this entire article in the sucker fishing thread but I will post the meat here again with emphases on what I feel is important and pertinent to this conversation: “Wisconsin Outdoor Journal contacted DNR Bureau of Law Enforcement Director Ralph Christensen(at the time the position fishing law was created). He initially referred to a letter he wrote to State Rep. Jim Holperin, who had also asked for clarification of the new law. In the letter, Christensen said: " ...I am of the opinion that some lateral movement under power will also be acceptable ... occasional momentary deviation from vertical lines is expected and would not constitute a violation of this rule." The letter continued: "Our policy would be that uninterrupted lateral movement for up to several minutes may occasionally be necessary to reposition a fishing boat ... "Assuming that you aren't simply 'trolling' them, your Lindy Rigs or bottom bouncers can be fished consistent with the spirit of the position fishing rule." Christensen told WOJ the new rule allows for position fishing of large suckers for muskies. Some musky anglers have used rigs similar to Lindy Rigs (a commercial name that has become synonymous with live bait rigs using a slip sinker designed to move snagfree along the bottom) in recent years to work suckers along structure. Another practice that would become legal, Christensen said, would be musky anglers' use of sucker-baited lines while casting with another rod. Sometimes called "floating," the technique was popular with anglers whose boats were drifting or moving backward but became illegal if a trolling motor was used to reposition the boat in a forward direction. "If (the lines) are just hanging over the side in this vertical application, it would be legal," he said. Finally, Christensen was asked about the legality of bobber rigs while position fishing. Some resort owners have said their elderly guests, who cannot fish by conventional methods, have begun fishing minnow-baited lines beneath bobbers while using an electric motor to move slowly along the shallows in search of panfish. The resort owners were concerned the new law would prohibit this practice, but Christensen allayed those fears. "In that context, you could pull a bobber around for a little ways and then sit still," he said. If wardens enforce position fishing in the manner described here, then the new rule will do what it was intended to do CC ban trolling for muskies with planer boards and downriggers while allowing anglers to use their boat as a tool to position their lines.” Reading what the top DNR law enforcement officer had to say about the topic back when the law was created I would say musky fishermen using their bowmount to drag a sucker around while casting from the bow, is legal. This interpretation and the many others including yours are exactly why the law needs to be clarified. On a different note addressing some of the other recent posts: Would an electric only rule cause the problems sled and addict are worried about even if they were being used to troll artificles. Nail A Pig! Mike
Edited by MRoberts 11/8/2007 10:47 AM
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Location: Barrington, Il | I lived the backtrolling years and fished with Herbie before and during that time. He only kept one fish that I know of, the 47# out of Trout. There were other fish kept by some guides, one that caught and kept two over thirty pounds one day. That is what got everyone so mad. But there were also big fish caught on suckers at the time that were kept and that was OK. This was also when sinlge hooks were used almost exclusivley. There were way more fish killed that way than trolling even though they were released. That was the norm then, cut the wire leader and the hook would disolve.
Trolling got voted down shortly there after at the spring hearings. The DNR was for it at the time. Tradition voted it down. It was voted down by the same guys using single hook sucker rigs. We will never know how many fish were killed during that time when musky fishing was becoming popular. Ask Herbie about those days and see what he says. Only a few fish were killed trolling but sent everyone into a tizzy.
One last thing I would like to point out is that the DNR has been stocking brown trout in lakes like Fence that have to huge right now. No one is fishing for them because the best way is to troll the open water. Here a resource you are paying for that is not being used.
Steve, you have hit the nail on the head with your posts. |
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Location: The desert | By simply ennacting a new trolling law, do you really think anglers are just going to flock to the small lakes of Onieda and Vilas county? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | good point Mike ... electric only does support the distinction. i'm all for clearing up the sucker position fishing thing ... and to answer you Pointer ... if motor trolling opens up in oneida and vilas counties ... pandora's box is opened up and you will see the whole ball of wax and some things you'll see right away, others will show up later ... but it will be significant change bringing all the good, bad and ugly along with it. to think that it's going to be "all-good" is short-sighted i think. |
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Location: The desert | I'm not picking sides here, just simply asking that question.....I'm a fence sitter at this point and just watching both sides throw rock in each others lawns.....So what is the pandora's box that will be opened due to trolling? I just cant see that the day of opener, if the trolling restriction lifted, that there everyone and their grandmother will have boards and riggers and dipsys all set to go to putt around for hours on end.
I've read the noise argument about having the drone of an outboard be unaesthetically pleasing to the ear.....I'll call BS on that argument....I can fart louder than most of the kickers I've heard. Sure their might be the old timer running the Force 15 thats a bit louder, but at that speed? Sorry, not going to buy that argument, especially with jet skis and the like out there producing 10 times the noise.
Would more muskies be caught if trolling is legalized. Probably. Is that a bad thing? If so, why?
I guess my view is, if we are reworking this to only deal with our worries about sucker fishing, casting and trolling motor use...why dont we work to re-word that instead of going for the whole trolling aspect? |
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| Mike, in my opinion there are a certain percentage of trollers, the ones who are very good at it, who currently have drool running out of the corners of their mouths at the thought of being able to troll the "untrolled paradise full of big stupid fish who have never seen a lure"... And who can blame them? If you knew of a lake that was full of muskies that nobody fished, that had a walkable shoreline in your case, wouldn't YOU go there? I also believe that there are more people than you think who currently avoid those lakes because you can't troll there. I also suspect that some "sleeper" lakes would have an amazing trolling bite, so amazing in fact that they would become a Mecca of sorts. It's human nature, and it's the nature of all of us as anglers to see out the next hot bite. Trolling in Vilas and Oneida counties, even on the small lakes, could potentially become the "New Minnesota" so to speak.
Now, just to clarify my own opinions, the aesthetically pleasing aspect of it all goes WAAYYYY beyond noise alone. Multiple lines, boards, down riggers, more boats, more people, more fish caught... Speaking for myself only, those little Northwoods gems where little if anything has changed for the last 100 years? Sacred. Sacred enough that even opening up the possibility of it changing is a place we don't want to go. As Sled eludes to, the nonsense that COULD come with it, no matter how remote the possiblility of it actually happening, is a risk we don't want to take. Living in the land of that nonsense, having to go 6-1/2 hours North before it finally dwindles off perhaps make me see it in a way that even those who have lived there their whole loves can't. Do I get emotional about it? You bet! Its something that is and has been for a long time sacred to me, worth preserving regardless of the lack of scientific studies proving that it will cause problems. If we continue to disallow it, we KNOW that it won't cause problems.
As for the jet skis, etc. Truth be told, the constituency that is invading the Northwoods as of late? Largely wealthy retired folks from the urban rat race who have come there to escape the nonsense they were forced to endure their entire working lives living in and near the cities. They don't bring much nonsense with them. They're mostly old, quiet, and keep to themselves, and they hate the jet skis as much as anyone. They also have a great deal of money, and business, networking, and influencial skills. Quiet old rich (and still powerful) people who who cherish the serenity are not necessarily bad people to have buying up the lakefront property...
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| I would vote No. There are plenty of places that already allow trolling.
And as one who has caught their fair share of fish trolling, one of the reasons I moved up north was become better at inland fishing, where I could not fall back on trolling. No scientific evidence you would catch more fish trolling, but from personal experience I would have to say yes it is. Tell me the guys on St Claire and Green Bay would be putting up double digit days casting like they are when trolling. Not very likely.
Row trolling is already legal, and great exercise, as much as it is an art form. I could see that becoming a lost art form in the north woods if motor trolling was allowed. Too many people looking for the easier way to do things now days IMO. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | hallelluyah |
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| Again, you said: "over the last few years of thinking about this, my opinion is either opening up motor trolling or making it electric only and limiting the size of electric"
To me, this statement suggestted that using an electric in not trolling. Obviously I mis-interpretted you.
However, if your suggestting that it would be difficult to maintain trolling speeds with most electric motors, I you are wrong. Many walleye rigs are currently set up to troll harnesses with in-line boards all day at speed up to 1.5 mph. The boat I just sold on WF (1785 Yar-craft with a Minn Kota 80 lb. thrust Minn Kota) could easily have maintained speeds over 2 mph for 6 to 8 hours.
Time at top speed is limited only by battery capacity. You can always add a second set of batteries to double your time on the water.
Personally I don't really care that much if a change is made - my concern is that if we make a change that we don't lose priveledges that we now have.
Thanks for your time... |
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Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | .
Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:58 AM
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| LoL, I had a feeling you would Chuck, and I know I am in the minority amongst even my friends. And believe it or not that day out with you cemented it for me. The stuff you got stewing in your grey matter is dangerous. Thankfully their arent many people in your league at the art of trolling. And truth be told my best days on Green Bay come casting. But it is very timing specific. I do believe its an advantage to be able to troll. I know the intent is to clear up the position fishing issue, but once you start this process where does it end? There are already lots of waters you can motor troll on within and hour of most people in Wisconsin.
I just think the north woods is a special place. And trolling is already legal, its called row trolling. I for one love to watch the row trollers work. And would hate to see motor trolling pop up in its stead. Whats wrong with leaving it the way it is and finding ways to do it within the parameters that are already in place. Like we have been. Too many what if's and other can of worms that get opened here. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Do Sleds condensation so far and as I see things we have this not in any particular order:
1) Those for trolling in the North with no restrictions
2) Those for trolling on lakes larger than X, no restrictions
3) Those in favor of trolling only larger lakes with some restrictions
4) Those in favor of trolling electric motors only
5) Those opposed to trolling in any form in the North Woods
6) Those who would accept very limited trolling regs change
No real basis in fact against trolling, so it's preserving the system as it is. That's fine with me if restrictions like that applied evenly across the board on all water use issues. How am I wrong in my read on this?
I think jet skis are a nuisance. Nasty polluting noisy machines that drone away my peace and quiet on many local lakes. We don't have a ghost of a chance getting them banned, because there is no support for that from ANY sector. Skiers and powerboaters and the like have free roam on our waters, but I can't putt along with a nearly silent 9.9 bigfoot 4 stroke? How is that right? Argue that this has gone far enough and we shouldn't ad to the noise and ruckus and I will argue in this case it's gone too far, jet skis and motors over 40 HP need to go and I need to be allowed to troll in that water use space with my little green rated 9.9 4 stroke since I will be much less likely to disturb anyones peace and quiet.
OK, that was a 'devil's advocate' argument. The argument that actually applies as far as I can see for the absolute antis so far is;
"No changes are needed or acceptable, we like things as they are, thanks!"
That works for me, understandable position. I'll stick to :
"I would like to be able to troll some of the lakes up here, I'd like to see limited trolling allowed on lakes larger than 'X'."
So far, on this thread's tiny straw poll, the 'for it' crowd is winning. Good thing our fisheries are not managed by a democracy...no wait, good thing our fisheries are managed by our hired and qualified fisheries managers...no wait, good thing we can get laws like this changed by a blindside in a budget bill...no wait...good thing we have the CC hearings so the process can be influenced/heck---PASSED by extremely limited participation so we can ummm....what DO we base our fisheries management upon? One of the biggest headaches for our DNR biologists, and that goes for everywhere. We just got all Aldo on it here in Wisconsin. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | ok, now how do you apply that to the position sucker discussion ... they are indeed separate aren't they? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No. Position fishing regulations exist here, and no where else in the US or Canada I am aware of because trolling is banned. |
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| Mike - I've seen that letter before as well. Personally, I don't think it supports the decision you say it does. All it says is that you can make occasional corrections with your trolling motor and still be legal. It does not say that you can use your trolling motor to drag a sucker down the length of a shore line or around some underwater structure.
What the letter does make clear is that if the intent of the fishermen is to use the trolling motor to stay on the structure, you are not trolling. However, if the intent is to use the motor to bring the bait to the fish, you are trolling. For example, a fishermen working a shoreline with the wind blowing in an angle could occasionally use his motor to move his boat deeper and continue to fish. An angler working the same shoreline with his motor on most of the time to propel his boat (and therefore the baits) would be trolling.
The reason most warden's will not ticket you for this is because THEY don't know the rules or they do know the and how difficult it is to make this determination.
If you find a way to clear this up, you will have done a real service to the State.
I personally don't have an issue with the laws they way they are now, but the topic does interest me because their is always the potential for something to backfire when rules are changed.
Again, thanks for you time. |
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| Oops!!! that last one was me. |
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| Having grown up in Wisconsin and now living in Michigan were trolling is legal, I can say the revision is a good idea. On some lakes trolling is just more effective , on others casting is, and there is no differance in catch rates . You still have to put in your time either way |
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Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | .
Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:59 AM
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Location: WI | I agree 100% in the meatball/position fishing grey area, but then if that were the whole intent then it would have never progressed beyond the use of electric motors, but once you add the motors (gas) thats where you loose me. I see it too much in the U.P. where it is legal, one lake in particular, less than 600 acres but very deep. I rarely fish it anymore because of the Michigan trolling law. When you see 4-5 boats out there running downriggers and boards it looses its luster for me. I rarely see the Mich boys there casting, its usually trolling out there because its the easier for them to get down where the big musky play with the lakers. And I am sorry I just dont want to see that when I am in Vilas. Eliminate the gas motor trolling and change it to electric only if your only intent is to clear up position fishing while dragging a meatball. I dont know too many people who drag around suckers with the gas motor.
Chuck, sent you a PM. |
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Posts: 578
Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | .
Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:58 AM
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| brad b - 11/8/2007 8:42 AM
All of this is because musky fishermen want to be able to be on their bowmount and drag a sucker around while casting from the bow?
First off, that IS trolling. Position fishing is using your bow mount to counter the effects of the wind to remain over a specific spot on a lake or in the case of a river, to ensure that your boat is floating down stream at the same rate as the current. If you are using a motor to move from spot to spot on a lake and your dragging a bait while you do this, your CLEARLY breaking the law.
Secondly, with the vast number of musky anglers preaching catch and release, I find it very hard to believe that any fishing technique is ever going to have a significant impact on even the smallest body of water.
Sorry to disagree with you Brad, but I do. Show me exactly in the regs where it says, "Position fishing is using your bow mount to counter the effects of the wind to remain over a specific spot on a lake or in the case of a river, to ensure that your boat is floating down stream at the same rate as the current."
See, this is the problem with this reg as it is written. Everybody has a different interpretation. I don't know where your interpretation came from. Probably a different warden than the one that told me what I was doing is perfectly legal. So, according to him, I was clearly not breaking the law!
Mike, the only issue I see, is trying to push this for the lakes that CURRENTLY are not open to trolling. Again, in a perfect world, this would work. In WI, I see any restrictions being carried over to all lakes currently OPEN to trolling. And that, my friend, will doom this proposal. So again, I would say to offer to open trolling to all lakes, and limit those under 500 Acres to electric motors only.
I understand on the cost of the ticket/fighting said ticket. I certainly don't want the hassle, but I would take it to court as opposed to just paying the fine. I've written to the former head of the Wardens, Tom Harrel on this and several other issues. Not surprising that I received NO reply. On this issue, I asked him to issue an interpetation of this Position fishing reg, so that all his wardens were on the same page. It didn't get done.
Someone brings up the Tip Hotline. Some here would actually call in for this. And how would you feel if the warden that came out inteprets the reg to say they are position fishing, and not trolling? You've just wasted his time, time he could be spending to do some really important work.
As for editing posts? I wish mine were merely edited. Mine get deleted!
Chuck, the problem of rewording it is you still have a fairly unenforceable reg. By fairly, I mean, a warden could say you were not using the boawmount in an uniterrputed manner, even if you were.
Edited by Shep 11/9/2007 10:44 AM
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| Lots of folks have had posts removed at one time or another, it's easy to get a little too rowdy when typing.
What many don't realize is this forum is read by folks who can make a difference in what we'd like to see with fisheries management across the country, and some even post here. Additionally, there are MANY visitors who read every post, but do not enter the discussion for whatever reason. I'd like to keep this forum and all the others here a place where everyone feels they can get an honest barometer of the Muskie crowd's feeling on issues of the day, opinions on lures, techniques, places to fish, and everything Muskie without having to wade through a bunch of silly personal fights or rude, bar room brawl commentary. It's our goal to keep this as friendly a place to post beliefs, positions, opinions, and everything Muskie as is possible, and no one is going to apologize for doing so. |
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