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Location: Northern Wisconsin | bigger fish are usually harder to catch, they got that big for a reason. they are smart, they have
been seeing lures there whole life. |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Joe is obviously the better of the two.
Kevin will take his picture. And it will turn out, then Joe will post the pics and people will second guess the length anyway.
One or two fish per 20 hours of angling...I'd take that most of the time.
S. |
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| I loved Slamr's reply --made me feel great --I'm a dang musky god according to those 4 criteria he put up !!! BTW-I even catch my fair share too. Really good post , good to think about something new. MD |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | I went to the new Cabelas last night. Talked with young Esox2Hart who works there in the musky isle (note I said isle, not isles). He has decided to take pity on this older gentleman and take me as his partner for the IMT.
Soooo, I have now changed my mind. When I catch two 34" fish, I will definitely be a better fisherman than Joe, who only catches one 50". I am entering this tournament to show what a good fisherman I really am. 
When I finally catch a fish casting, you can expect me to soon be making highly opinionated posts regarding important issues such as transport tournaments, scoring, genetics, vertical holds, spot camping, and many other controversial issues. I will also be making declarative statements regarding the length of fish posted in pictures here on this website.
I'm sure everyone here will greatly appreciate what I bring to the table as a tournament fisherman.
Thank you for your time.
Kevin
I've always relied on the kindness of strangers.
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | Lots of things that go into this question....
Can't answer it with the information given.
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Now that this has run awhile, I have another observation more to the original question. Let's say you do not KNOW this guy at all, have never heard of him and have no idea of his skill level. He posts a 51. Or, he posts two 34s. The automatic response by most would be 'stronger' to the 51, and JUST because the fish was caught assumptions will be made about this fellow's skill level different from assumptions about the same angler if the fish were 34".
In other words, big fish a great level of skill might not reflect. Exactly the same thing might be said for small fish.
I think I know what Mike was trying to get to...  |
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| Why are bigger fish harder to land in your opinion? I can see no difference, but people tend to panic when they hook a big fish especially if they are not used to catching them....that could be where the larger fish are lost...but that is angler error. |
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| Why are bigger fish harder to land in your opinion? I can see no difference, but people tend to panic when they hook a big fish especially if they are not used to catching them....that could be where the larger fish are lost...but that is angler error.
i don't "panic" with larger fish, but i do tend to lose more over 40" than under 40".
my belief is that this is because:
- it's harder to bury the hooks in their mouth
- stronger fish can more easily get themselves into a branch, buried in the weeds, into a trolling motor, etc.
- larger fish can more easily create a moment of slack line with a quick burst or move
as you say, all those things can be moderated by the fisherman, but the likelihood of something going "wrong" is higher with a bigger, stronger fish.
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Posts: 1939
Location: Black Creek, WI | Why do people lose big fish? Its been my experience that they fight a big fish.... as if it were a small fish. They eventually learn that you cannot "muscle" a big musky like you can a dink. You also learn that a big fish has more leverage.... so allowing them to change directions usually ends up with a lost fish. You can get away with letting a smaller fish change directions.... which then tends to "teach" an angler that it is OK to do. Then when that precious moment finally comes... and you get to dance with a big girl... you release her too soon.
Guys that stay in one spot in the boat and battle fish usually lose more fish than the guys that run laps around the boat trying to stay in front of the fish.... and never letting it change directions. Its a line angle thing.... and a tension control issue.... in my opinion of course.
And... its those kind of experiences/skills/whatever that make Joe a better fisherman. Not how many... or how big a fish he reports catching. A guy who catches a 50 incher on his very first cast for muskies is nowhere near as skilled of an angler as a guy who had to fish 30 years before boating a 50. |
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Posts: 720
| Hi Mike,
You are absolutly correct in your reply to BenR thread. One thing I would like to throw out here is this. With the non-stretch lines and the stiffer and longer rods and drag set to the limit like I know a lot of do. That we maybe are own worst enemy by not so much of bad hookset but rather putting to much pressure on these larger fish once they are hooked?
I'm sorry, do you understand what I'm to trying ask or get at here with this?
Thanks
Dave
Edited by Hunter4 9/28/2006 2:38 PM
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Hey great posts guys, lots of interesting stuff.
Steve you nailed the exact point why I posted this topic.
I thought it very interesting how many people like the straight total inches system for determining a winner in a tournament, but when you look what happens on a regular basis on Musky message boards big fish almost always get more attention than a multiple fish day or weekend. Hey there’s nothing wrong with that, because personally we all eventually end up at the same place, WE WANT TO CATCH BIG FISH. Catching fish any fish is great fun and the day I don’t have fun going out and putting even just one 34 incher in the boat is the day I quit fishing musky, but eventually the goals change in favor of big fish. Many will give up chances at smaller fish in search of a big girl.
I guess that’s why I prefer a scoring system that gives extra points as the fish gets bigger. In the Hodag and PMTT two 34s are worth a 41 ½, two 38 1/4s are worth a 50 incher, and two 40s are worth a 53 ½. In MY opinion that seems fair, as that pretty closely relates to how people would feel if they where fishing on there own. At least until you hit the magic 50” mark as many would rather go over that bar than catch multiple any size smaller.
Nail A Pig!
Mike |
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| I would have to disagree with you folks...I fish two bodies of water most of the year...On one body of water...a 48 is considered a "shaker" and shook off without photos(not my rule, but I deal with it)...the other is your typical chance at a 50 with most of the fish in the mid 30-40's inch range. You can say a larger muskie's mouth is harder, but he also bites with much more force. The bait fits in their mouth much nicer, they tend to jump much less. We have 80-100lb line 8 to 8'6" rods razor sharp hooks...nets that are big enough for a great white....I think perhaps I will stick with panic or lack of experience with big fish...Muskie Fever...that is what it is all about...Ben |
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| disagreement within the context of a good discussion is actually what makes us all better!
You also learn that a big fish has more leverage...
jason, in your experience with loads of big and small fish, would you say that this makes them more "difficult" to catch, after hookup?
Guys that stay in one spot in the boat and battle fish usually lose more fish than the guys that run laps around the boat trying to stay in front of the fish.... and never letting it change directions. Its a line angle thing...and a tension control issue...in my opinion of course.
jason, again, in your experience with lots of fish, does the fact that you believe you need to do this for bigger fish indicate an underlying belief that they are more challenging to fight?
it's also my understanding that you hit free-spool when a big fish makes a run. why do you do this?
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | MuskyHopeful - 9/28/2006 8:55 AM
Soooo, I have now changed my mind. When I catch two 34" fish, I will definitely be a better fisherman than Joe, who only catches one 50". I am entering this tournament to show what a good fisherman I really am.
I'm sure everyone here will greatly appreciate what I bring to the table as a tournament fisherman.
Kevin
Ahhh but Kevin....Joe catches a 50" in the IMT and wins the 50" Big Fish contest and $10,000 he may be smarter???
Good Luck!
GotOne |
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Posts: 1939
Location: Black Creek, WI | lambeau - 9/29/2006 12:57 PM
disagreement within the context of a good discussion is actually what makes us all better!
You also learn that a big fish has more leverage...
jason, in your experience with loads of big and small fish, would you say that this makes them more "difficult" to catch, after hookup?
Guys that stay in one spot in the boat and battle fish usually lose more fish than the guys that run laps around the boat trying to stay in front of the fish.... and never letting it change directions. Its a line angle thing...and a tension control issue...in my opinion of course.
jason, again, in your experience with lots of fish, does the fact that you believe you need to do this for bigger fish indicate an underlying belief that they are more challenging to fight?
it's also my understanding that you hit free-spool when a big fish makes a run. why do you do this?
Mike,
My point was that people have more experience landing smaller fish. You simply catch more of them. Thus, MOST of their experience is with small fish. My experience has been that what works for small fish won't necessarily work for big fish. Thus, I'm not saying its easier to land big or small fish.... I'm just saying the requirements to do so are different. So... using the hypothesis based on POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT.... if you successfully land a bunch of small fish by standing in one spot and horsing them in (which works well with small fish) one may conclude it is a good method for landing big fish too. After learning the hardway..... I disagree.
For example. If you muscle a small fish a little too much... you simply drag them through the water. But... if you muscle a big fish just a little too much... you potentially could straighten a hook, tear off, etc. In this case, landing a smaller fish is "easier" and actually over-powering the fish helps reduce the risk of slack line. However, if you have a large fish hooked well and with heavy tackle.... its actually "easier" to keep tension on the fish (just load the rod and reel as needed)... since it won't drag through the water as easy as a smaller fish would. Thus, the risk of slack is reduced.... potentiall making it "easier" to land than a smaller fish hooked in the same manner.
As for freespooling a fish. Same deal. That last thing you want is to get caught off-gaurd with a locked-down drag. Thus, I have my reel in freespool AT ALL TIMES... except when I'm reeling of course. If a small fish bolts and pulls your rod down in the water as you fratically try to feed it line.... you have a better chance of stopping them before something gives. If this happens with a big fish... you had better hope its hooked well and you have heavy enough hooks and terminal tackle. I still freespool as stated... but I no longer lock-down my drag. When I set the hooks on a fish over 10 lbs.... my drag now slips a little. I seem to pin up better with that "safety net" adding some cushion to our now super strong hooksets created by long rods, fast actions, and no-stretch line. |
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| not to get too semantic here...;-)
would you agree that if you have to make the technique changes you describe, it's because a bigger fish is less "forgiving" of mistakes that a person can "get away with" when fighting a smaller fish?
if so, wouldn't that suggest they are "harder" to catch?
ie., if big fish are more likely to take advantage of my mistakes, i've got to make fewer mistakes ("be better") to catch them consistently?
imho, people who catch numbers of big fish are the best fishermen, not simply lucking into the rare trophy.
if i want to get better (and i do, and i think we all do!), i think a good place to focus is on the kinds of techniques you're describing.
what other advice do people have for successfully getting larger fish in the net (after hookup)? |
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Posts: 1939
Location: Black Creek, WI | Mike,
No... I'm not prepared to say that big fish are less forgiving or more difficult to land. What I am suggesting is that the MISTAKE many people make is with what they THINK is the best way to play&land a big fish. So.... if you are trying to land a big fish with the same technique you use for small fish.... then YAH... big fish are more difficult to land.
The way I fight fish... it seems like smaller fish are more difficult to land... as its harder to keep the rod loaded to avoid tension without feeling like you are "horsing" the fish. Big fish can hold their ground while you keep decent pressure on them.... and it seems to help calm down the entire situation. When you try to keep the rod loaded on a smaller fish... the come through the water towards you.... forcing you to keep reeling to avoid slack line. Before you know it... the fish is at boatside and still plenty green. With a larger fish... you can play them to the boat in a more controlled manner... so when they finally do get to your feet... they are ready for the net.... in a calm, organized, and hopefully predictable location. |
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Posts: 956
Location: Home of the 2016 World Series Champion Cubs | "What makes Joe a better fisherman?" Ask Joe. It should only matter in Joe's mind what makes Joe a better fisherman. Not in your mind, not in mine.
Karl |
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Posts: 3926
| I have a sorta different view than above....
From my view..
From the start, you set your drag as to fight and land a big fish. And you make sure your drag system is perfect, as you can easliy do with Smooothihes on Abu reels. With this approach, you can surely muscle in smaller fish, but you can also be sure that a larger fish will engage the drag system, pulling line out as it fights away from the boat. Keep the rod tip up, ready to catch sudden slack by throwing the tip down while you reel fast to mainain pressure, etc. Fish wants to run, the drag system lets her go, play the fish. Never an open spool, i.e., tumbing the spool, as I don't have confidence I can manage that approach successfully. I want both hands ready, on on the rod/reel and one on the reel handle, all the time.
Where I live the min size is 42", so little mid-30"s are not considered as I set up my rods. I'm fishing for a upper 40"s and my reel drag is set such. Always, I replace the drag washers with Smooothines. |
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| its harder to keep the rod loaded to avoid tension without feeling like you are "horsing" the fish. Big fish can hold their ground while you keep decent pressure on them.... and it seems to help calm down the entire situation.
what role do you see the rod playing in this equation?
i've been moving away from x-hvy power rods (when i don't have to use them for certain baits) and more to moderate power rods which assist in applying constant but not over-forceful pressure. is it reasonable to assume that this will help with more loaded rods and less frequent slack line? |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Jlong,
I had a very decent fish on this past weekend that was probably pushing well over 45' more like maybe 46, 47 and the fish came flying around the other side of the boat and I started chasing her around the boat. But all of sudden the fish kinda went limp, and what I mean by that the fish kinda just started giving in or just taking a break in other words. But what I'm trying to get to is the rod tip was high but the pressure on the fish wasn't like I am use to when I have dealt with other fish of this caliber. What do I do or do you suggest in this situation from lettting the line go somewhat slack but not literally slack? I feel that after analyzing the situation and trying to figure out what went wrong and why I lost the fish that when I hooked her on a topraider she came up and did two very good headshakes and I thougt well I have her pinned pretty good if I was able to keep her on through that, but after about two minutes of fighting her, the topraider came flying back at me and I didn't quite understand it until I started analyzing the situation a little. I'm not sure why exactly I lost her but after reading this post, I'm beginning to really think that by not trying to keep more pressure on her caused me to lose her. Any thoughts anyone? Need more info just ask. |
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Posts: 3926
| Lambeau - what do most Steelhead rods look like? They're 9' spincast rods with LOTS of give; they have to be that way because the openface reels are loaded with only 6# mono. For 10-15# fish that are really strong runners in strong current, 6# line is pretty light, but you can't go more or you won't get bit. It's the long whippy rod that saves yer a$$. Plus time and luck that the fish doesn't tangle in river wood/debris, those steelies are tough and they run. But that's the deal. So, broomstick-stiff muskie rods are....dumb. Longer, lighter action from mid-point to the end, but no lighter than you need to work the bait right, are the order of the day. |
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Posts: 350
Location: WESTERN WI | Bringing this thread back to the topic: I feel that it is what you value more. I value 1 50" over 2-34". The 34" may have not been exposed to as many lures/techiues/etc. as the 50" that is one decade or perhaps two decades old on some waters. That fish is more elusive and has more "wisdom" than a 34" thus making it harder to catch. It is obvious that anyone can "luck" into a musky (Accidental Musky) from time to time but even when a 50" is "lucked" into more skill on the anglers end is required to land the fish.
If this were a tourney situation, whatever scenario, 2-34" or 1-50" that would register more points would get the nod from me.
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Posts: 331
Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | I think this ties into a post a while back. If Joe is catching 45-inch fish in a body of water that only grows mid 40-inch fish, he's a darn good fisherman. But if he is catching 34-inch fish all day long on LOTW’s he is a sub par fisherman. Just because a guy is not putting 50-inch fish in the boat doesn’t mean he is not a skilled angler. If the angler is limited to fishing bodies of water that don't hold large 50-inch fish yet he is consistently catching the adult population, he is a great fisherman in my book. What's the saying....it's not always length that matters but what you do with it! LOL
Ed
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| I've mentioned what I thought about the 2-34's versus the 1-50". Here is my belief on the evolved thread.
JLong & Lambeau have some good points. I feel I've been in contact with a number of big fish. set your drag accordingly, keep your hand on the front cork...and REEL, REEL, REEL! It was mentioned that someone lost a mid to upper 40" fish. I think he was exactly right...after two minutes, or any amount of time, your chances of losing Mrs. BIG are greatly increased.
A good bend in the rod the whole fight is imperative. With over 70% of the big fish coming in a figure 8 at boatside, to go freespool would be scary and possibly dangerous. The BIG fish we are dealing with move at over 40 m.p.h. A burst at that spped will mean backlash, thumb stuck under spool, or rod going for a swim...I've seen them all by some very good fisherman!! As well, with fish at the boat, most of the time, setting the hook down is a good bet! Keep a good bend in the road with her head down.
Is a small fish easier to get in the boat once hooked? Most of the time....do I lose a number of small fish? YES...my drag is normally set tight, and I lose small fish because it is tough to get hooks into a small fish, when you're setting the hook HARD! Sometimes you drag the fish through the water, and pull the hooks free.
So, I agree with just about everyone's opinion. BIG fish are easier to bury the hooks home. BIG fish are easier to keep a good rod bend, as long as you REEL, REEL, REEL! But, DON'T FREESPOOL, unless you are very, very experienced...of which I don't feel I am that experienced yet.
Sorry for rambling,
Donnie |
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