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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | I got a bait back with a problem that I have not seen and wanted to see if you guys can diagnose the problem. On the 5th cast this glider, which has two coats of Envirotex, broke the clear coat. The clear coat looks like it cracked lengthwise along the bottom of the bait, starting from the front screw eye all the way to the back. Background - I seal the lure with sanding sealer, add lead, test in a tank, test bait in water, let dry, sand, reseal, paint, and clear coat. The only think I can think of is that the water did not completely dry out of the bait after testing. Ideas?
Thanks,
Shane
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| Water entered along the screw eyes. Use 2ton epoxy when installing the screw eyes or install the screw eyes prior to clear coat. Also "scuff" after you primer and sealant to get better adhesion of paint and clear coat.
Hope this helps.
Steve Cady
Master Baiter
Musky Nut Tackle Company
www.muskynut.com
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| Also it's possible that someone moved the screw eye after you epoxy'd etc... |
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Posts: 4266
| I know it all too well.
You guys that had this happen to Castors know what I mean.
My problem was my primer. When my paint dried, it sucked the primer right out of the wood, leaving you with an Envirotex eggshell.
Incompatability problems of some sort.
Change primer or paint lately? Using a sealer? It's not letting the paint adhere to the wood. You need a primer so the paint has something to stick to.
One easy way to tell....take a pocket knife, and if you can peel off the paint job like a fish skin and the wood underneath is natural color, and not the color of your primer....then it's either your primer or your paint. Looks like mine when I had that problem. Sent a couple in to the paint maker, and they told me that the reducer in the paint was sucking the primer out of the wood, leaving me with a shell of paint and Envirotex held in place by screw eyes.
I changed primers and haven't had a problem since.
Looks exactly like what I went through. Refund the money. Strip them down to bare wood and start over, because there is no fix. Something you are using isn't compatable with something else.
Polystyrene. Primer/sealer in one. Not cheap, but you can dip the lures and it penetrates and if you dip twice, you don't even need to prime it white. 3 dips is like painting on tile, but it's made so paint adheres to it.
Beav
Edited by Beaver 5/9/2006 10:34 PM
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | Somehow water got in, expanded the wood....goodnight clearcoat. Your process sounds good tho to me. Like Steve said if the screws aren't in when you clear the bait then you must epoxy them in. If what Beav says is true....that the whole thing comes off like an "egg shell" then yes you have a compatibility problem. I use etex and I never refinish baits because it will literally take me a half an hour to get the clear and primer off, it sticks that well.
Hey Beav, tell us more about the polystyrene...I'm trying to remember if I have tried that or not.
jed v. |
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| I've seen this with Bagley DB-06's before too. With some baits out there costing a ton of money, it's a shame this ever happens. |
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Posts: 4266
| Looking at his pictures is like dejavu.
I had lures crack from eye to eye, along the belly.
Ask any people who had it happen. Captain Koeppe and I were out with a box full of new lures, one by one almost all of them split.
If it is water getting in, the lure body would be white from the primer. Mine were all natural wood colored. Everything came off. The white primer/sealer-Zinser Covertstain-got sucked right out of the wood. People at Zinser said they have nothing that's made for that application....priming/sealing a fishing lure.
Sent a couple to House of Kolor and their tech people spotted the absense of white in the wood right away.
Peel off the paint and let me know, is it white or wood?
I used to use sanding sealer, but if you don't rough up the wood and then use a rimer made to work wit the sealer, nothing will penetrate the wood.
Polystyrene is polystyrene. Tougher than nails and over $50 a gallon. We used to paint water pipes at the water plant with it. It holds out water while giving paint something to adhere to.
I can tell from the pictures that he had tha same problem as me. Any of my disgruntled customers will testify to it.
Glad I only primed and sold 50 lures that went to hell.....not!
Lots of wasted time and money and replacement costs.
He wont have trouble stipping them. Most of them peeled off like fish skin.
Edited by Beaver 5/10/2006 6:34 AM
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Posts: 4266
| Do I have to draw you a picture?
How about 2?
Here is the skin off of a lure that I stripped last week that was returned.-Fishskin1
Note the white primer sticking to the paint and the 2 coats of E-Tex.-Fishskin2
You can see that the primer stuck to the paint, but not to the wood.
I bet this is what you will find when you strip yours.
Use a heatgun on the tough spots.
Beav
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | Shane,
I've had that happen with baits that have suffered trauma (rocks, snags, etc). I'm thinking the guy might have snagged the front hook, reefed on it, and then water got up under the compromised clear coat.
Rob |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Yep, my Castors suffered a similar fate. You could peel the 'shell' of paint/clearcoat off in large chunks. Like a hard bioled egg. Bare wood beneath; the primer was still sticking to the paint. Long, longitudinal cracks, mostly along the bottom and sides of the lure. Beav also told me the wood type (too soft or something), and possibly my altitude and summer heat conditions made my situation worse. Aside from the cracking problems, these lures also experienced damage from tooth marks  - which is why I gladly put up w/ it. Beav is probably about to throw fits over seeing my Castor pictures, and he has insisted several times that he would re-do them, (but not sell me anymore)! I am a customer, but not a disgrunteled one. My perkas are still intact - not a crack or even hook rash yet.
Sorno |
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Posts: 4266
| It was one bad batch. Almost all of the ones that I primed with the Zinser Coverstain turned to crap.
I went back to HOK KO-SEAL, and never had a problem again.
The primer/sealer has to penetrate the wood while giving the paint something to adhere to.
It doesn't look like a screw eye problem, because from what I can see of the one in the rear of the lure, it looks like they are in when the lures get painted.
Sorno- post the pictures if you have them.
Beav
Edited by Beaver 5/10/2006 8:40 AM
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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | Beav's correct - with the exception of the belly hook hanger I install the screw eyes before I paint over them and I clear coat over them as well. I have a wand that sticks in the belly hook hole when I paint and clear coat. After painting and clear coating, I use Devcon 2-Ton to epoxy in the belly screw which is intact. I'm going to peel off that clear coat after 5 and post pics of what it looks like.
Shane |
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Posts: 408
Location: Omaha, Nebraska | That happened to my timberwolf, but just a very small crack and like it said it started at the front eye and went around the lure eye(not the metal one), luckily it is no where as big.
Edited by DEMolishedyou 5/10/2006 4:39 PM
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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | Got home and started to deconstruct the bait and here's what I have. There is actually a crack in the wood leading from the lead hole about 3/4". The putty filler I use is completely gone from the lead hole. When I removed the epoxy clear coat it didn't come off straight to the wood but is instead a mix of "clean wood," paint, and primer.
Here's a little more detail on the process:
1. Seal lures with a water based sanding sealer. It's the Ace Hardware brand is water based.
2. Add lead to bait and test in five gallon pail to make sure it sinks level.
3. Test lure at lake to make sure action is correct.
4. Let bait dry for 24 hours.
5. Use Elmer's Carpenter Wood Filler to Fill Lead Holes - let dry additional 24 hours
6. Sand lure.
7. Reseal lure with water based sanding sealer. Same as used above.
8. Here's where I think my problem is. I had been airbrushing three coats of white Createx water based paint as a base coat. In this batch of lures (of which Demolished's lure is also one), I chose to brush on three coats of of Zinsser Primer Sealer (water based).
9. Paint lures wwith Createx water based paint.
10. Add 3 coats of Envirotex Lite.
11. Test bait.
My theory is that it is the Primer Sealer. Basically since I painted on a primer sealer on top of an already sealed bait, the Primer Sealer had nothing to adhere to (because the bait was already sealed) so basically it became a shell held onto the bait with three screw eyes. After stripping the bait down I began to think it may be the wood filler but that may be a red herring - I think it probably dissolved in the water as the bait was used.
Thanks for the advice on this everyone - I appreciate the help.
Shane
Edited by ShaneW 5/10/2006 6:12 PM
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| I know Treats had some problems with a few of his because of the clear not having anything to adheise to because of the primer. But when peeled the white primer stayed. I think Beav might have this one correct from the looks of that bait?
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Posts: 1207
Location: Pigeon Forge TN. | Hey Shane,
Beav gave you some good info.
As far as what hapeened to your coating it could be a couple reasons. But wood can get very technical. Your choice, but if I were you, I would stopwith the waterbased primer. Even if you just dipped the bare wood in regular automotive lacquer, you would come out better.
One good reason to peel is that water had entered the wood ( it doesn't take much of a hole for entrance) the got wet and swelled upenough to crack the etex as it is hard and will not expand with the wood. Most of the cracks will follow the wood grain when this happens and allows more water in.
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Location: Duluth, MN - Superior, WI | I’m with Stan on this. Water worked its way in or you did not dry the lure enough from when you tested it. The crack in the wood tells you that.
-Corey
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Posts: 941
Location: Freedom, WI | I will add that it could be the wood filler. Had that problem, it made a bubble under one bait that I had on the shelf (I did have a few out that the epoxy came off and did not know why). Not sure if it was a reaction or that the wood filler was not completly dry but it was blowing the epoxy off. I now use a marine epoxy to fill in over the lead. Also use createx base coat over the primmer, I found that it bonds better and the paint sticks to it better also.
Edited by h2os2t 5/11/2006 3:42 PM
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Posts: 280
Location: Pewaukee WI | it may be from your scales, if you are using a crazy paint for that, there is a lot of surface area w/ no adhesion. just another possiblity to add. I had this happen before. goodluck. do you know where it cracked first and after how many casts? maybe it caught a rock fish?
Edited by Musky_Slayer 5/11/2006 8:20 PM
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Posts: 619
Location: Verona, WI | I am going to do an experiment as I think the wood filler may be another potential problem. I took another bait of mine and intentionally tried to break it by repeatedly bashing it on the surface of the water. Put a lure on a rod and slammed it as hard as I could on the water with 3 foot of line out. Basically turned the lure into a flail. On cast 126 I noticed a crack in the epoxy around the lead hole. When I looked at it, the repeated impact had broken apart the dried filler. With the filler broken, the epoxy began to break. I definitely won't be using wood filler anymore.
I am going to two quick experiments when I get back on Sunday. First I am going to substitute marine epoxy for wood filler and see if it impacts the breakage like I saw in my test yesterday. The other experiment is going to use the wood filler but cut out the sealer-primer/sealer combo.
Shane |
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| after how many casts? maybe it caught a rock fish?
my lure.
5 casts, no rocks.
i'm sure Shane will figure it out with all the help on here...we were talking Tuesday night (while not catching any fish) about what a great resource this forum is for guys like him who are working to improve their craft. guys like me get to benefit with cool lures...
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| I use Epoxy Putty to hold the lead in my baits. It comes in a tube like a roll of quarters and costs about $4.00. I've never had an issue with it, and it sands fairly smooth. |
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| Check with a place in Kenosha....I think?
Abatron is the company. I use their epoxies, wood fillers.....anything that I need.
Epotron 5, a 2 part epoxy that is the consistency of honey and has a pot life of 2 hrs.
2-part wood fillers that I use to finish off weight holes. They sand down smooth as glass and never shrink.
Tons of other industrial stuff too.
I'm pretty sure that is the name. I think I found it looking for adhesives and fillers.
If you need anything for a wood application, they make it.
Abatron Inc.
Beav |
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Posts: 1207
Location: Pigeon Forge TN. | Shane,
There is another product ( if you can find it in your area) It is called " PC-7 and they also have PC-11, This stuff will bond the following to gether with each other with very good results, wood, plastic, glass, steel, aluminum,and copper. These elements can be all bonded together with the products I mentioned. It is very strong stuff and you can sand it and drill it when it has set. It is like a semi runny putty. I think Lowes has it and sometimes it can be found in hardware stores.
It has a "JB weld" consistancy. ( which is also good stuff)
( Had to come back & correct spelling ) 
Edited by Stan Durst 1 5/12/2006 7:16 AM
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