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| What do you think? I've had better luck with 80# mono leaders. |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | i use 100# flouro on casting rods and 100# mono on my trolling rigs 90% of the time never had a problem. i keep a close eye on the leaders and the slightest nick i change them out. when i do use wire i use 100# sevenstrand and 100# solid leaders, with 140# or 200# snaps and swivels on them!
Edited by muskihntr 3/17/2005 12:41 PM
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Please remember this is just my opinion.
I went through a flouro phase for a while. It cost my boat one of the biggest fish I have ever seen. 100# flouro is no match for a musky's teeth. There are many people that will tell you that they use them and never have had any problems, I am telling you that eventually you will have problems. If the thought of losing a fish due to leader failure does not deter you, than how about the thought of leaving a fish with its mouth pinned by the bait it just bit off?
I have one rule when it comes to leaders now. If you can cut it with scissors it does not belong around a fish's mouth. |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | hi norm i respect your opinion totally and spent alot time mulling over the same thoughts but i gotta tell ya, on clear water i think it makes a differance again my opinion too (not wanting or trying to argue). i fish every year with steve herbeck up on eagle and honestly that guy has put more big fish in his boat than anyone i know, and he has been using flouro almost exclusivly for over 10 years now without one failure! im pretty comfortable with 100# and really rarely go under that maybe down to 80 on a rare occasion but nothing lower. again i am constantly checking the leader for any type of imperfection. norm you had a bad expereince and i cant say i blame you one bit for never using the stuff again, someday if it happens to me (knocking on this wood desk right now) i pray it wont , i may be right there with ya too!!!! botom line is if you feel comfortable enough using it then do it, if ya dont then ya gotta go with what you have the most confidence in!!! |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Small world muskihntr, Herbie is the one that got me to try it many years ago at his lodge. I thought it was the cats hinder for a long time. It only takes one failure to tie that knot in your stomach though.
I agree that some baits have much better action with them, not quite as sure I buy into the less visible thing competely, but that may have some creedence also.
Every time I see a "should I use flouro" post it makes me relive the day we lost "The Queen", Steve knows the fish I speak of. In fact I think its his pet. I still carry the cut leader in my boat as a teaching aid when asked about flouro leaders. Forgive me if I get somewhat passionate on this topic, but it hits really close to home with me.
I know there are a whole bunch of fisherman out there that have had significant success with these things, but for every oneof them, there are those that have had bad experiences also. I hope that you continue to see nothing but success with them, I truly mean that. I think it would be irresponsible of me not to outline the pitfalls of flouro also so the poster sees both sides.
Nothing personal muskihntr, and make sure you take care of my buddy John when your up here fishing with him this year.
Edited by nwild 3/17/2005 1:49 PM
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Posts: 7036
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Norm, didnt you lose that fish on a floro SUCKER RIG? Not a leader.... |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | hey norm, screw that...johns gotta take care of me hahhaa!!!!! be nice if you could join us one of these times, we have alot of fun, as long as were not changing tires!!! anyway....hey im 100% with ya id never tell anyone you gotta use this or you gotta use that!!! one must be comfortable with what one uses!!!! for me for now im comfortable with it. of course we both know herbie is off his rocker anyway hahaha!!!! |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Florocarbon can be cut off without question. But, I have been using it for the last 3 years and not had one failure at all. I make my own leaders and quick-strike rigs.
One think to remember is don't set the hook like its 7 strand. Rembeber to keep needle sharp hooks and when using it on a quick-strike the smaller thiner hooks seem to dig in without much trouble.
Now if you are using extra large hooks, super line, and your setting the hooks as hard as you can, you will run into trouble at some time with flourocarbons. Even the heavy stuff.
My sucess comes with the longer lighter action rods when trolling. I use the reel down and pull back as you step back hooksets when using quick strike rigs and always keeping extra sharp hooks ready to dig in without to much trouble. You always have to remember you are using something that can be cut, without too much resistance it is harder for the fish to break it off.
Now as for numbers caught using flourocarbon its a no brainer. I have consistantly out fished people in my boat when floro vs wire. Plenty of fish have taken the bait instead of following it and sinking out of sight. I am firmly convinced that it ups your odds on catch to follows.
Now when I switched to flourocarbon on my sucker rigs the sucess has been outstanding. This I would not recomend to anyone, but it works for me. I have never had a fish cut me off on a quick strike rig. Simply put: Don't give them the leverage to bite you off. Reel down and pull back while reeling, like a circle hook set(just reel) but with some added restance until the fish goes into its head shakes. Then I milk them in to assure they will not get the leverage to bite me off.
This is only my opinion and please this is only my views on this subject.
One extra question. Norm, do you think that fish would have ate your rig if it was heavy wire? They don't live that long being dumb. Just maybe that fish was fooled by the flourocarbon. Just food for thought. SORRY, I don't mean to add this to your thoughts pal but its a possibility. |
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Posts: 743
| I've not had a problem with 80 lb. leader when throwing bucktails. but sucker rigs are another thing. I had one bite off and chalked it up to a fluke . when it happened again that was the end ,never again. I used a rig used by a Vilas co . guide who said he never had a problem . 2 bite offs out of 3 strikes and I find his no bite offs unbelievable
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Posts: 72
| I use metal on glidebaits and when I am really crunching baits into rocks, otherwise I use Sea-Guar or P-Line Fluorocarbon for everything else. 80# Fluorocarbon is where I start and use it all the way up to 200# for speed trolling at 7-9mph. With fluorocarbon, a good rule of thumb is that if you are leary about it, go to a bigger size. Personally, I have never had 80# fail. I jig fish with 80# crimped directly to the jig, have trolled with it and use it for casting bucktails, spinnerbaits and prop baits. I hung a 10"Jake up on an anchor and actually pulled a #7 Bucher split ring open using 80#. But again, put your mind at ease and go with a bigger size if you are uncomfortable with it to start with. You still will be getting the light refractive qualities that make it nearly invisible in the water and it is a lot easier on the fish because of the larger diameter and won't cut into the fish when it rolls up in it.
Hope this helps,
Brett Erickson
www.thornebros.com
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | very true sucker harnesses are a whole nother ball game id never recommend using flouro on a sucker rig, that i would definetly not be comfortable with! |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | As far as the two out of three bite offs. What was your set up?
I would bet its not like what I use and not the way I set the hooks.
Remember the reel down, step back, pull the line tight and keep reeling untill the fish starts to shake its head. Then go easy on the fish.
I would bet you had supper line, a medium to heavy action rod and set the hooks like it was a wire rig. I may be wrong but thats when a flourocarbon rig will fail msot of the times.
As far as hard to believe, its your opinion. I did boat 102 fish last year all with flourocarbon leaders and quick-strike rigs. Last year was 99 fish. Maybe the odds are not in my favor but you can't argue with the fact that it works for me. Flourocarbon will break when pushed, its not for everybody.
Where do you draw the line one increased numbers and quality fish vs the possibility of failure. You can use sperline, wire and a 8ft stick and still loose a fish due to ripping the hooks free or straightening a hook out.
I would never like to see a fish swim away with a bait in its mouth.
It happens plenty, I know of three people that broke off on fish last year. One was a extremely good fishermen. None of them were in my boat. All of them had equipment failure. NONE of them were using flourocarbon. Two on line failure and one was a snap failure. It just happens.
Should these guys quit fishing? Flouro is not for everyone, I said that before. |
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Posts: 1266
Location: Stevens Point, Wi. | I totally agree with Norm. You may get more action using mono/floro leaders, but sooner or later a bite off is bound to occur. I'm not talking leader failure, just the good chance of a bite off. Feel the front area of a muskies mouth. The teeth are like a hack saw blade. Take your fluro leader and make a few passes along a hack saw blade and then see how confident you feel. Sooner or later a fish is going to take a lure deep in the mouth and that leader is going to be working back and forth over those saw blade teeth. A bite off here is a death sentence for the fish. I'll give up a fish or two for the safety of the fish. |
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Posts: 224
Location: Madison | I've used fluoro the past few years and haven't had a problem yet, but I'm sure I don't catch half as many fish as some of the guys here.
My biggest problem with the "I don't fish with anything I can cut with a knife/scissors" argument is that a muskie's teeth are not designed like a knife or scissors. A muskie's teeth are not designed to cut - they are designed to hold prey fish in their mouth until the muskie can swallow its meal. That's why they're angled toward the back of their throat. Are they sharp? You bet. But they're not going to cut something the way a tool that is designed to cut something will.
I've never had a bite-off, and hope I never will. If I do, I will not hesitate to switch back to wire - it's just not worth it in my mind. But I've heard many people who catch many, many more fish than I do, who have never had a bite-off.
Just my $0.02,
-d |
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Posts: 2752
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | BenR- No doubt- fluorocarbon all the way- 80 & 100lb Ande (It's tougher & more tooth resistant than other fluoro's)- 80 is my favorite- I even do well on Canadian walleye's with 80lb, i.e. too avoid bite-off's from big pike. Although I do make 130lb flouro leaders too, yet I preferr the 80 lb. I tie them with a 4-5 wrap grip knot & then superglue the knots (4 wraps -130lb & 5 wraps for 80lb ). The leader literally disappears in water.
Ranger (Rick Fox) got me started on fluorocarbon- developed my own tools & method of tying them with a grip knot. The only metal hardware is the snap or a snap w/ swivel.
Have fun in 2005
Al
Edited by ESOX Maniac 3/17/2005 8:27 PM
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Posts: 20214
Location: oswego, il | 5 years of using flouro without a failure. I have some trolling leaders with around 40 fish on them. My casting leaders and sucker rigs have been flawless too. If I have a nick of any kind, I replace it. |
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Posts: 1137
Location: Holly, MI | I love mono leaders. casting and trolling.
No bite offs to date. Check them for nicks and run em.
Don't forget about the ocassional wire leader failure as well.
Good point about fish rolling in wire, hadn't thought about the slime it will remove.
Don't worry about a scar, worry about inviting infection with slime removal or open scar.
Just my thoughts. I tie 'em instead of crimping. |
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Posts: 73
Location: Hazard KY | I use both mono and flurocarbon leaders in 100# and 80# and had zero falures in the last 8 years thats around 700 muskies with no bite offs.
I use suffix leader material they make it out around the Carolinas for salt water uses but it works great for muskies.
I don't even have a 7 strand leader in my boat now. but I do use a solid wire leader on my glide baits.
Good fishin Chris
www.kentuckymuskie.com |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Used Fluoro one day, was bitten off by a huge Northern, 50" class. I was casting, I will never use it again.
I feel your pain Norm. I doubt I will ever have a Northern Pike of that size on the end of my rod, again. |
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Posts: 743
| i wouldnt hesitate to use floro for trolling, but not for casting. i'm not a trolling expert, and truthfully i have caught way more fish casting then trolling.
but, when trolling, it seems like they hit the back or middle of the most 90% of the time. where casting they might hit the head of the bait. So, floro/mono for trolling seems to be cool. i have not heard about very many floro bite offs when trolling. but casting w/ mono leaders?? why even use a leader at all? just tie bait driectly to line. or just tie a snap on and forget the leader.
now i think about it...i have never heard of a mono/floro bite off when trolling...but i know PLENTLY PLENTLY mono leaders broke/biten thru when casting.
GUEST, why do you say you had better luck w/ 80# mono leaders? better luck with what? getting strikes? catchign fish? follows? better luck w/ your baits running better? what do you mean? i think it is a HUGE misconception that muskies are Line Shy and you get more strikes w/ mono leaders than steel leader. Heck, you have hooks the size of a dogs paw hanging off your baits, but you're worried about 12 inches of thin metel infront of the lure? Leaders do NOT take away from musky fishing. I just dont think that muskies care, recognize leaders as a pieice of fishing equipment. Muskies are not leader shy or line shy. if you really belive that they are, then you shoud fish w/ bass hooks on your lures so muskies arent' afraid of your hooks.
a mono leader will not help you catch more casting or trolling. it is more friendly on the fish when trollers want to us 3 or 4 foot leaders and wire leader that long could damage a fish. but a musky isnt going to roll up in a 10-12 inch casting metel leader.
when you catch a fish on a figure 8, and there are 2 other guys in the boat, everyone is talking, the depth finder is clicking, the trolling motor is in the water,you are on an 18 foot boat...you catch it right beside the boat...but you think they are line shy????
NO WAY.
use the right leaders or leave a fish to swim off w/ a bait down it's throat/stuck in it's mouth
tomcat |
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Posts: 1536
Location: God's Country......USA..... Western Wisconsin | Well said Tomcat, I agree that if a fish can see your line and actually knows what it is we might as well try to use velcro instead of hooks. I have had 2 sevenstrand leaders bitten off while fishing a jig also many times been bitten off due to the fish inhaling a jig and blowing it completly out its gills. I now only use solid steel leaders for all my applications. I admit that I have not even tried flourocarbon but if sevenstrand can be bitten off I really can't believe that any mono or flouro could possibly be any better. Maybe just my crappy luck but Iwill not take that chance again. Just my very, very, humble opinion but told from a little experience at least. |
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Posts: 216
Location: Belleville, WI | I didn't realize you could get bitten off using a seven-strand! Who else out there has experienced this? |
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Posts: 724
Location: Southern W.Va. | Score one for Norm, mono DOES NOT belong on a musky outfit or in a musky's mouth. Why take a chance on losing a fish , be it a fish of a lifetime or not, and leaving the lure in the mouth of a musky to die a long ,slow death. As far as having better luck with mono , I can't see that a wire leader would have but VERY little to do with the catch/bite ratio in the long run. If these fish are so lure shy , then maybe we should all be using fly rods and 12' leaders in the 2# test range , like trout.
With the new, better "superlines" , mono as no place on a musky rod and reel, be it on the spool or as a leader. If you can cut it with a dull knife then a musky can surely cut it with his/her teeth. Use what you will , but I'll not use a mono or floro leader.
Just my $.02 worth
Mauser |
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