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Posts: 172
| I thought this was a cut-down tournament. 20 teams who caught fish moved to Saturday. Then only two teams caught fish on Saturday. What happened! Widlacki and Summers caught a 49 on Saturday and ended up third. Why were they not second? Maybe I didn't understand the format, but it doesn't seem fair.
Can someone who fished explain what happened. |
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| Since there were only two fish caught on Sat. they reverted to Friday's point total to get the other eight teams. Then only two teams caught fish on Sunday...making them 1 and 2. Tim and Jason got third based on Saturday's fish...the rest fell in line with last weeks points. Tough one to take for me and my partner. OOOOOOOOO for a 40"er.
John |
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Posts: 172
| John,
Did you know that up front? I feel sorry for Widlacki and Summers. They caucht a 49 on Saturday and lost 2nd place to a much smaller fish on Sunday. Doesn't seem fair. |
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| (said in the incredulous voice of Tom Hanks from League of Their Own)
FAIR? This is Muskie Fishing! There's no FAIR in Muskie Fishing!!! 
it really was more like 3 separate tournaments.
1) weds-friday
2) saturday
3) sunday
however, #1 and #2 aren't for money - they're just to move on. you've got to win on sunday to "win".
those that plopped down that much cash to fish on a very finicky water were taking their chances with the format as it was layed out. no surprises there.
"fair" would have been to give all the prize money for places 1-10 to the two teams that did manage to boat a fish on Sunday. but it isn't about "fair", it's about "format."
the guys that won overall truly earned it by boating fish in each of the 3 stages of the tourney and ultimately catching fish when it counted - on SUNDAY.
the rest is just points - wednesday or saturday, it's just points.
it looks like there was a bit of underestimation on how tough the bite would be when they picked the number of boats moving on to saturday and sunday. |
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Posts: 507
| The sorting for the tournament scoring goes something like this:
Sun Points
>Sat Points
>Wed-Fri Points
The TOTAL points column at the far right is only shown for interest, it does not determine place. The sort is identical to the RCL Walleye Circuit system through last year. This year the RCL combines sat and Sunday Points instead of starting at zero on Sun. |
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Posts: 32930
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | BACKLASH;
The rules were VERY clear. I read them and understood the system right away, and Bob described them well in the rules meeting too. In fact, Zach understod the rules well enough in advance from my description to design a Live Leader Board that automatically scored the event according to the rules. The cut Saturday REQUIRED a fish caught. That is why there were less than thirty teams in the Saturday field. If the team caught a fish in the three day qualifier, the points were carried into the first cut for the Top Ten. Saturday fish bumped the top place, second place, etc. from the three day qualifier list to form the top ten. As fish were caught Sunday, the Sunday fish immediately bumped the first, second, and so on places. The largest fish Sunday produces first place, second largest second, and in this case, that was that. The First place points team, who did not catch a fish Sunday, then moves to third, second to fourth, third to fifth, and so on.
This was a very well run, classy event. I am pretty sure it will be held on the Big V again next year, but that's only a strong rumor! |
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Posts: 244
Location: Mallard Island Lake Vermilion MN | Good deal all way around.
Had me a blast.
I swear the Winds on Wednesday moved my Island SIX feet to the East.
One good thing about the rain.
I can now get my rig back on her lift out back with a full tank in her.
Though I do hope it is not up here again in 2005.
We need to guide to eat.
LOL
Or I could maybe give this a go again?
Sure, why not?
But this yaer all things considered I might have been better off taking bets on how long I could ride that MOOSE!
Keep on Rock'en!
Tom Wehler
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| Hey Steve,
Were you at the same tournament? You said this was a well run tournament and a classy event. What was well run? The lack of judges? The 3 hours of total chaos that was called the rules meeting on Tuesday night? The total lack of preperation on Bob M. behalf? The lack of comunication on his behalf with all the contestants? No one knew what days had meetings or gatherings and what didn't? The starting position #'s cluster and so on and so on and so on. There was not one person there walking out of the Tuesday night rules meeting that wasn't saying this was the worst they ever seen. And there was some very big name guys saying this.
I know you Steve have got to take the high road on this because obviously Muskie First had some type of agreement with him by the way he hyped Muskie First up at the so called rules meeting. But lets at least be realistic about this.
Just because he had a tournament on a great body of water doesn't mean it was a great event. God and the MDNR MADE IT A GREAT BODY OF WATER.
I will not fish another of his events.
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Posts: 5874
| Another poster with no gonads to log in. Sounds like sour grapes to me, with a side of animosity towards Bob M. Sorry you didn't catch a fish.
I wasn't there, but I have fished many tournaments. I can tell you from experience, that every tournament has it's problems. Especially for the first time event. As in all things in life, rarely is one perfect on the first try at anything. Tell us, did the problem with the way the event was run effect your performance on the water? If it did, I'd suggest you should probably not fish ANY tournament.
I'm sure the organizers of this event learned a great deal, and will implement changes to correct the issues raised. But no matter what happened off the water, it was a great event. To suggest otherwise takes away from Jason and Dan's awesome win.
As is said many times. "Just Fish It!" Looks like you didn't. |
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Posts: 2089
| Ask any of those that made the cut if they even CARED about some disorganization under the tent.Fish were handled with care, because those that caught them made sure of it.Nothing in life is perfect.Although I did find one thing last week that is. Steve |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | Interesting perspective. I am all for hearing both sides or different takes on events. We have all been there when it is all said and done two people have completely different takes on how it all went down. I would be interested to see how many people shared your view, as I am sure Bob would be to. Remember this was the first one, if kinks need to be worked out I am sure they are open to feedback. I could care less and have no interest in the tourney, but think both the positive and negative comments should come out so it CAN be made better in the future. Also, if 3 of the 80 teams had problems, thats different then 75 of the 80...That information would be useful.
Thanks for your perspective-
Cory |
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| i just to say congrats to jason and partner as well as ty and luke and all others who made it.
personally i had a ball,had a chance to see alot of guys i haven't in years or only a few times in the winter,got to spend some time on a diff and incredible body of water, and thought that with the amount of $ involved the sportsmanship showed by contestants was outstanding.i haven't done any tournament fishing in 12 years but thought that it was run just fine considering it was the first one and maybe some need a little more guidence to feel comfortable but everything worked out in the end and thats all that counts really.
just wish i had had more time to learn the lake,had our chances despite and could have just as easily been there as well as many others.those that finished in the top deserved it. |
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Posts: 1185
Location: Wishin I Was Fishin' | I feel it was well run...sure there were some things that could have been done better, like the preperations, but still it was well run. I didn't catch a fish, but still had a good time. |
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Posts: 5193
| Very well run tournament,with some great ideas to send into the future of tourneys,checking boats livewell only,half hour to get back,flights(no 6 footers to deal with at the start this time) which probably saved serious boat or human injury on wednesday.I admit coming out of the tent on Tuesday I thought the worst but it was run at very very high level.Every team I had talked to said how well this tournament was run,so again sorry you did not catch a fish.If it makes you feel better I got skunked also.Bill Ramsey
Edited by 0723 9/21/2004 9:01 AM
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Location: Contrarian Island | It did have it's kinks, but like others said, it was the first one.
Bob could have handled the rules meeting a bit better and it didn't go as smoothly or as quickly as it could have.
I think the weather probably kept some of the judge boats off the water...would you want to sit in pouring rain and wind for $75 bucks? not me...
I hope they raise that and get more judge boats. I'm sure next year satellite phones that they would have had this year will be there.
I think 99% of the guys out there were courteous to others on spots..with 80k at stake, there may have been a few guys coming up on spots others were on, but that is what the "buoy" was for.
For a first time, it was run ok, was it great, no, but I'm not complaining by any means, there was alot of work put into it, that was easy to see.
Bob did his best to put on a good, fair, and safe tourney for all who entered and the fish caught I believe were just fine "hangin in the net" til the judge boats arrived...
I'll be back next year....
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Posts: 32930
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | TL,
No, there was no 'agreement' between Simply Fishing and MuskieFIRST. I decided to cover the event after Slamr called and asked if I could make it, going to Tower instead of Houghton for the PWT Championship. I changed my plans about a week ago. Bob didn't even know we were coming until he was on his way up there.
I was on the dock every morning, and LISTENED to Bob call the meeting, or lack of, that evening on the bull horn. I suspected some of the boats were not listening, but I could hear him from shore, over 200 yards away. I also listened to the Simply Fishing personnel, includng Mrs. James (Mike James and Bob James, true gentlemen of the industry, were her son and husband. They were the best there ever has been out there on my end of the business, working with Ranger for years developing the Fisherman line, and repping the boats in the North. I still miss seeing them both) give out details for the day's schedule as folks checked in for the day. The Judges worked very hard, and got to the fishermen quickly. Sure, they could have used more judges, but no more volunteered. Chad Cain volunteered to judge Sunday after missing the cut on water he knows VERY well(that's muskie fishing!), which I thought was very classy. I spent the day in his boat.
I also watched the boats leave every morning, and that went off ON TIME, easing everyone out in order. There certainly was no shortage of opportunity to ask questions every day if one was confused about the schedule or rules.
I attend more tournaments in a year than most do in ten, and have seen large established events that didn't go as well as this one. You know , at almost EVERY event there is someone complaining about the rules meeting, the rules, other anglers, the tournament organization, or whatever. It's part of every event,as Shep stated.
In Bob's perspective both during an interview we did and throughout the event, this was all about competitive Muskie angling. The Staff were ALL about the contestants, not Bob, not themselves. Bob spent every day on the water judging, by the way.
I was behind the scenes in the offices and in the tent, and watched those folks and the folks at Bay View work very hard to see to it everyone had a good time. I never once heard any concerns from the promoter or the staff abount anything but very real concern that the event go well for the anglers.
Sure, the event can be improved. Bob and his staff fretted all day about just that, EVERY day, feeling badly about any plans that didn't go off exactly as scripted. I bet the Simply Fishing Muskie Classic will improve every year.
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Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | I can understand the comments regarding the Tuesday Night Rules Meeting. I too had the same feeling of disorganization as we walked out. However, from that point on things went pretty smoothly if you ask me. In my opinion, the only "mistake" made on Tuesday was the drawing for take-off positions. Had that been done as people "signed in" at registration then it would have been completed prior to Bob going over the rules. Big time-saver there. The other unpredictable time issue was the insane number of STUPID questions asked by the contestants. I appreciate the need to understand the rules, but c'mon.
Ultimately, as already stated in previous posts.... these "issues" will be part of the learning curve and my expectation is that they will be corrected and improved in the future. I'm not a strong tournament advocate, but I felt the format of this one was awesome and that is why I decided to try it. It eliminates "dumb" luck and the "one hit wonders"..... and ensures consistency by the angler. To me, that's what tournaments should be about. Granted, the BigV is a unique and challenging system.... but that made it all that much more interesting.
jlong |
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Posts: 32930
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Jlong,
Good points. I have learned through the years that there should be NO Q&A session, that always, and I mean always, goes badly. The rules are the rules, and that's that. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I think if Bob had said from the outset, hold ALL questions you have til the end...it would have eliminated alot of the stupid questions asked...The take off thing was not done right, I'm not sure if the order people registered is the fairest but there has to be a quicker way for that..I'm sure they will think of a good/fair way next year.
I like the format, consistency, more so than luck...
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| I too was very dumbfounded after the rules meeting. Granted it is the first year, but it was VERY disorganized.
First off, all contestants should have gotten a rules update or welcome package in the mail a couple weeks prior to the tourney, that would have eliminated alot of questions.
But, as state by JLong, the major fallback on Tuesday night was the drawing for starting positions. It took like an hour and all it did was get the crowd in a stir.
I agree, when you sign in, you should draw a number from a hat and that's your starting position. Wouldn't saved a least an hour of time.
Also, someone mentioned keeping all questions to the end. It's the best way to handle things.
Another major hold-up was the marker buoy and judge boat measuring questions. I have fished PMTT, WMT, and other tournies and both of these concepts were new to me. Therefore, I can understand why people had so many questions.
I can honestly say I was very skeptical after the meeting. However, when all was said and done, I think it turned out to be a good tournament.
I really like the flight system and the being able to fish until times up and having 40 minutes to get back.
I will most likely fish this event in the future.
Ball Cap |
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Posts: 172
| Steve, I'm still a little confused! God I must be stupid. I reread the rules and must admit your explanation was better, but if the fish caught on Sunday placed 1 & 2 and then they went to the points, why didn't Benson/Hirsch finish ahead of Widlacki/Summers for third place. Benson/Hirsh had 186 points to Widlacki/Summers 169.
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Posts: 32930
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Widlacki and Summers caught a fish Saturday after making the cut Friday. They were in the number two spot going into Sunday behind Jason and Dan who had a 52.5 Saturday.
Widlacki and Summers were in second going in to the last day, so they got bumped to third with the final day fish caught by Jason and Dan and Ty and Luke. If any other team had caught a fish, Widlacki and Summers would have been fourth, and so on. |
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Posts: 1189
Location: Bagley,MN 56621 | I don't remember MuskieFirst getting hyped up at the meeting, in fact I distinctly heard Bob M.say that "Muskies 101 would have the leader board as well as other muskie sites."
I dont see what the confusion part was all about, I was pretty clear after the meeting. I was frustrated, not because of lack of organization prior to the meeting , but the impatient people who went there with an attitude that it isnt going to be run well, it's a mess, blah blah blah.
They kept jumping in and asking STUPID questions that were either already discussed or was about to come out of Bob's mouth. If they would have just calmed down and let him finish, it would have been fine, people went into the tent cranky so they left cranky.
The PMTT got away with drawing starting numbers at the meeting, why cant the Classic do it?
Ther PMTT doesnt go into nearly the depth of specific rules as the Classic did either, that could be where some time savings is involved.
As far as starting positions being drawn at sign-up.......if i was promoting a tourney I would have the order the way you PAID into it............that encourages earlier sign-ups and better fills......but I dont promote tournament's directly and am perfectly content with either at depost,sign-up or drawing at the meeting.
The 2 things I really really liked is the boat check BEFORE the ease-out, and the fishing until the end, then giving 30 minutes to get back in.
Didnt care for the measuring the way it was explained, but heck I really cant comment because I havent ever seen a judge at my boatside whether the board had numbers on it, or the board was blank and a peg was used.
The key to this whole thing, was not most or biggest fish (well sort of but...) , it was CONSISTENCY, catching fish multiple days in a row to keep advancing.
GREAT JOB to the top 20 teams, this was a challenging approach and the top sticks prevailed!! |
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| Loved it and enjoyed every minute,,,Rules meeting took along time but so what!!!! Your up in tower Minnesota " what the hell are you gonna do anyway" We all got back by 10 :00 which gave you 7 1/2 hrs to sleep,,,,blast off,,,what was the problem???? he called out your number you got in line behind the lower number boat ahead of you and when he called your number again you went clean out the ear wax cant you hear over those fancy 4 strokes,,Its all comon sense,,And has promotor if I would have glanced over the field of known names I would have thought not much baby sitting would be needed and probbably less judge boats because of "LACK" of volunteers would fly because "glancing" over the field you would have known these guys know how to handle fish and contain them.."Guys he cant MAKE people sign up for judges consider that this was a weds-fri start which means people would have to use time off from work and there is not that big of a population center up there to draw from I know our Muskies inc chapter got invited to be judges so the word was out there,,,We got eliminated but pretty straight forward has far has Im concerned bottom line, put up or shut up, catch fish and call the judge and you got the biggest problem solved,,,Hope this comes back to Minn soon |
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| Dan & Jason
Congrats....DW I hope I don't see you in a Ranger shirt this weekend. Keep your head in the game....I love you man!!!!!! |
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Posts: 2089
| MuskieFirst was mentioned at the meeting Friday night, because Steve was there busting his arse covering the event.It was a win -win situation.It's called Marketing. Steve |
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