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Posts: 87
Location: michigan | I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but I do wish to get some honest opinions and maybe some scientific based answers. When does catch and release go to far? I have been a firm believer in catch and release for muskies, and I know it has made a huge difference in the population of muskies in general. We have an excellent population of muskies in Lake St. Clair. On any given day there are hundreds of boats fishing on the lake with many of them fishing for muskies. Just in the circle of charter captains that I talk to on a regular basis there are hundreds of muskies being caught and released every week, we can't even go bass, perch, or walleye fishing without catching muskies. The problem is that we are now starting to see a new disease in our muskies that has been identified by our local biologists which is affecting thier livers and killing off some of our fish. Could this be mother nature telling us that we have upset the ecosystem in our lake by practicing to much catch and release? I would like to hear what you think. Frank |
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Posts: 1310
Location: Washington, PA | Could be, but I have know idea. I thought about this in regards to the red spot disease that killed off a lot of Pymatuming fish in the 80's. I've even heard a biologist say that it could be a potential problem again if the concentration of fish gets to high.
But I'm not a biologist, so I basically have no idea. |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | I wonder where all those fish are coming form, what I mean is are they stocked? Maybe they need to limit their stockings. From what I hear about St-Clair the C&R success rates are way lower then anywhere else. What I mean is if we treated our fish the way they do down there we would have anything to catch. |
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Posts: 3242
Location: Racine, Wi | I was at our MI meeting on Tuesday, and it was brought up that the DNR may reduce the stocking of fish in some lakes due to catch and release. The theory behind this is that if the fish are not being harvested, they may not need to plant as many to maintain a viable population. It sounds interesting. I know in M.I. the release of fish is high, but when you take in the general population, that could leverage it all out. Myself, I am not a scientist or a number cruncher, so I don't know if it is a good idea or not. Pewaukee seems to have good #'s of fish, as well as good size structure, so I don't think the C+R is hurting.
I think I lost my train of though, but you get what I mean.
Good Lungen,
Joel |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | I would find it hard to believe that the fish would exhibit characteristics of being too 'crowded' without first seeing a pretty dramatic reduction in growth rates and body condition (maybe that's already the case, I'm not familiar with the biology of the water in question). Normally, before something like that happens to a predatory species, a dramatic and obvious reduction in prey is noticed. This sends the predator population into a dive where individuals become much less healthy and that is when disease moves in and 'restores the balance'. If the size/age structure of the population is still 'normal' and the abundance of forage is good, the disease in question shouldn't (in theory) have a population-level effect. Sure, individuals exhibiting signs of disease will be seen (maybe caught at a higher rate because they're somewhat compromised and can't as effectively catch real prey) but the healthy ones should still comprise the bulk of the population. Fish are however, strange creature and don't always play by the rules. |
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Posts: 87
Location: michigan | They do not stock any muskies in LSC it is all natural reproduction. As far as the "rumors" about How the fish are treated in LSC I think we get a bad rap for that and I don't know why. Catch and release for muskies has been practiced here for many years which is why we can go out and catch up to twenty or more muskies in a day with no stocking. This practice was started by the Michigan-Ontario muskie club in the days of Homer Leblanc when you would average only one fish every forty hours, and is practiced by the major majority of regular muskie fishermen here. If this wasn't true how else could you explain the number of muskies with no stocking program ever being done? |
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| Captain Frank, don't know much about the liver disease thing or if C & R is harming your population but I think I have a clue as to why the musky fisherman on Lake St. Clair have a bad reputation when it comes to releasing fish.
Orlando Wilson (the TV fisherman with the Atlanta Braves hat) was up there filming a show and the charter he was out with was "torpedo" releasing all of the muskies that they caught.
They didn't stop the boat when a fish was hooked. They simply cranked them in, netted them, pulled them aboard, unhooked them, and threw them head first back into the lake. This might have something to do with it, but maybe not. God bless.
John Stellflue
Oneida Esox Guide Service
www.oneidaesox.com |
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Posts: 1137
Location: Holly, MI | Yiiiks ! Some TV coverage. I guess that just shows you how TV compares to real life. Polar opposites! The Musky fisherman on Lake St Clair do a great job getting the fish to fight another day as far as I'm concerned.
Good points above about forage populations and size and shape of the predator fish. The walleye and perch population is going crazy also. A major factor mot yet mentioned is what the zebra mussles did to the lake. They came in with the freighters and went mad. The lake is so clear compare to what it used to be. Now weeds can grow at depths where they did not get any sunlight before. The forage fish now have the entire lake and population goes mad. The forage is so available that the Musky population is going crazy right with it. 30 pounders are being caught every day!
I am just a guy who fishes too much and doesn't think enough all the time but I think..
A big part of our desease problem is so many fish are being caught and not handled right. Walleye, bass, and even perch fisherman are catching musky. They don't have a clue that they are even hurting the fish. They throw them in the bottom of their boat where the net and the carpet gets most of the protective slime and the fish goes back in the water prone to disease. In any area, humans included, higher populated areas spread disease much worse. It has to be kept in check and monitored closer. I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I'm also venting a bit and the therapy is good.
Maybe it could start from the DNR level with a little education about handling fish to the idiots out there. They definatly have a problem but can't seem to even pinpoint it.
just a few thoughts (I'll probably have more later, sorry)
-lobi |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | John explained it completly about the surfing the fish into the boat, bouncing around the floor and then throwed back into the lake without ever stoping the boat. I have had many clients tell me the same thing, I even asked them if they stoped for 45-47 inchers and I was told no we just suft them in. I guess they find it to much work to reel in the 8 to 10 rods they are fishing with. They also told me that a lot of fish surface belly up but the guides tell them " they'll be ok ". Maybe it would hurt the numbers to stop as well. I can't even imagine working with more then 4 rods out the back of my boat, over here we stop for every fish we catch reel in the other rods and let the clients enjoy the fight weather it is a 34 or 54 incher. Then every fish is left in the net in the water at all times untill it is time for a quick picture then deposited into the water and held by the tail untill they swim out on their own. This could take from 30 seconds to over 1 hour but we make sure the fish is ok. The pig we caught yesterday was released by the client just a few minutes and she surfaced belly up. So I rushed over there grabbed her tail asked my buddy to get my craddle and I put her into the craddle for I believe some 15 minutes or untill she started to kick on her own. I then took her out and held her tail untill she swam right back down and high fives were given all around. The release part is as important as the catching part, call us crazy but we care an awfull lot for these fish. P.S. Our fishery is also 100% natural and we can't afford to have to many of those spawners die. |
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Posts: 124
Location: Rice Lake,WI | Watched a similiar show that was filmed on lake St.Clair and witnessed this same "torpedo" release method and thought wow that's different!
Have no idea what this does to the fish but it can't be good for them.
Did n't know this was the procedure though, that sucks,for the muskies.
More than 20 a day huh?, and hundreds a week released,interesting........
Well Captain I think you got a problem alright...too many muskies!
That darn catch and release!
Jon Torok |
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Posts: 87
Location: michigan | I have never witnessed this "torpedo" method used and have never used it myself. All of my fish are held until they swim away on thier own which is the same way the other captains I know release thier fish. As far as the number of rods, we fish mostly canadian waters with 5 or fewer clients and we are only allowed 1 rod per person which is strictly enforced!! With the amount of captains on our lake I can not speak for all of them, but it is a shame that people have this image of our lake based on third party information. Imagine if all the people on the lakes Jim Schillinger fished were viewed to be the same as him?(58" on cass lake post) Based on the numbers most of us must be doing something right which brings me back to the original question of the post can it get to a point in a lake where catch and release could end up being detrimental to the population?? And JT I'm not complaining by a long shot LOL I remember when times were tough and I never want to see it again here right now we have muskie heaven!!!!
Edited by captain frank 8/28/2003 7:36 PM
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Posts: 1137
Location: Holly, MI | I suppose it could and might get to the point where some Musky from Lake St Clair should be harvested. Definatly not yet however. If the musky population goes down before the perch and walleye population does you upset the balance of nature. The prey has to get its numbers too high and take a 'down cycle' before the predators follow the downward trend in population. When there are less predators, the prey have a chance to multiply again , and so it goes. Look to The wolves and the moose for an exagerated example on Isle Royal.
A ton of Musky are getting caught and this is a problem for the fish for sure. What can you do over and above preaching and teaching proper cpr? Capt Frank will flat out kill me for this one but shorten the season? Fish the spring and fall and give them a summer vacation. That won't work because people will just say they are fishing for pike. The walleye and bass fisherman will still be catching them too.
Some of you guys that have never been here should make a trip and land a couple of these hogs in one day. You will have a blast and see lots of fish.
I guess if the problem was easy to solve there would already be answers. I'll keep doing my part to protect the fishery and keep teaching the folks I take out with me.
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Edited by Sponge 8/23/2006 10:30 AM
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Posts: 87
Location: michigan | Lobi, The season is pretty long and they do get pounded pretty hard here. The biologists claim the source of the disease comes from rearing ponds on fish farms that flooded and overflowed into the waters of the great lakes and so far it has only affected the muskies. Just makes me wonder if the high density of fish makes it spread faster? We have seen this in the whitetail deer with TB spreading from farms to the wild and devastating our deer herd and now when we are on the upswing again we are hearing about CWD coming this way. Sometimes I worry that we mess with mother nature too much. In short I think the muskie population is very high and still in good shape but would hate to see it crash like the deer, that would be much worse than a shorter season!!! Frank |
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Posts: 20281
Location: oswego, il | I agree with an earlier post if the muskies were overcrowding, their body condition would deteriorate. An illinois lake lost much of it's population due to a disease and they only stocked 1 per acre with no natural reproduction. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | Frank,
How can you honestly say that you have never seen any one torpedo release these fish. I have only been on LSC a few select times, and I have seen it. I have also seen boats with 10-15 rods out, how can you say you haven't seen this either?
Dead muskies floating are a common occurance on LSC. Not stopping the boat when the fish is hooked, not holding the fish and letting it revive, and other poor release techniques are a big reason for this.
I am not saying that you do this, but I have seen it first hand and it is enough to make me sick. LSC is an awesome fishery, people need to learn how to take care of it.
I also have 2 vidoes at home that show people trolling and gaffing the muskies and flopping them over the side of the boat as if it was a tuna. You know you have seen these poor fishing ethics, if I have and I have only been out there 2-3 times, and other people have seen it on limited occasions, you have to see it.
Mike Hulbert
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Posts: 1310
Location: Washington, PA | I've never been on LSC, but I've heard from others about the fisherman running up to 15 lines at a time. No first hand experience though. |
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Posts: 87
Location: michigan | I never said I didn't see people running to many rods, what I did say is that I have never personally witnessed or used the "Torpedo method", and that "I" fish with the legal amount of rods which is usually 6 or less. I also said that the ministry is starting to do a good job of stopping the violating. Some clients won't fish with me because I tell them I refuse to run over rods, this is fine with me cause they are not the clients I want. It's thier loss because I always get my fish, I GUARANTEE IT or I give them a free trip, I tell all my customers "It's not how many rods you run it's how you choose to run them". I have days where we will catch 6-8 fish on the same rod/bait combo. As far as stopping the boat and fighting the fish, my heaiest gear consists of 6'6"-7'6" med-hvy rods spooled with 25lb. mono and 50lb. mono leaders, this allows us to get the fish in quickly enough so as not to stress them but still allow a good fight for the customer. If I kept the boat moving they would never get a fish in. As far as clearing the lines I have made a living at running boat rods, I catch bigger fish on them and they are easy to clear as I run them short ( 0-22 feet back) board rods have thier place and time and even when that time comes running more than 4 rods causes a loss in productivity due to not being able to keep them clean and running properly. Another observation I have made over the years here is that running baits any closer than 10-15 feet from each other also causes a loss in productivity of both baits so you defeat your purpose when you run to many rods. (still haven't figured this one out!!!) Those of you that have these videos take a look at them and let me know who they are, I would like to have the opportunity to talk with them and educate them on what the muskie world thinks and hopefully make a change in them. That's all I can do guys, so get a boat description or name and let me know. Guess I should have named the post WHAT'S WRONG WITH MICHIGAN? LOL Frank |
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Posts: 1310
Location: Washington, PA | I think I would pull my hair out trying to run more than 6 rods! I have a hard enough time keeping 4 clean, lol.
Captain Frank, I hope you don't take the comments as an attack on you. We need more anglers like you out there on the water willing to educate.
One more point, I understand that stopping the boat would possibly cause some tangling lines problems, but not stopping would also defeat the point....i.e. the fun of fighting the fish. Doesn't make sense to me.
Edited by tomyv 8/29/2003 12:20 PM
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Posts: 1137
Location: Holly, MI | On the American side of the lake it is 2 rods per angler. My partner and I each run two (his side and mine). If a rod goes off, that guy grabs it and the other guy puts the boat in neutral, hits the button on the GPS, and clears the other line on that side of the boat for the guy fighting the fish. The 2 lines in the water on the other side of the boat are usually ok. If the fish heads that way they will get cleared too. With down rods and wash rods it only takes a second to bring one in because we run them short. Never "torpedoed" any fish and EVERY fish we have caught this year has swam away strong. I can't be absolutly 100% certain that none of the fish had problems after they swam off and two had to be resuscitated for quite a long time but we DO care very much for the fish. If we are in the Canadian waters it is even easier because they only allow 1 rod per fisherman.
I don't know why I feel the need to defend us Michigan fisherman. We are just as passionate about muskies as other parts of the country. I guess Detroit has a bad rap as a city too but that is another forum. |
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