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Location: Eagan, MN | Sled, tell me about the Shadow Rap. Is it that much better than my other suspending stickbaits for smallies? My go-to the last few years has been the RC Styx, which has been absolute dynamite for bronze. I probably own two dozen of them and the last thing I need is to buy even more stickbaits. Still, I don't want to miss out if the SR is the smallie equivalent of the DCG. PM me if you think this is hijacking the original thread. Brian |
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Location: Land of the Musky | Crankbaits seem to still be popular  |
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Posts: 580
| Musky Brian - 6/7/2016 8:42 AM
tkuntz - 6/3/2016 8:10 PM
As a new muskie fisherman (3 years) I feel the fad has passed. They still do get used... a lot, but used as a piece of the whole picture. They have their time and place and I for one don't use them any more than needed due to them being a bugger to fish fast. I think the Lunge Log figures are skewed and dont exhibit efficacy, rather they reflect the glut of hours fished since their conception and the expansion of muskie fishing since the heyday of some of the other lures. All said, they work but are not a magic bullet.
Disagree strongly.
There's probably a different set of rules in more urban fisheries, where fish can get conditioned a bit more. But if you take a trip up to some water like LOTW, Eagle, etc and relegate big blades to " they have their time and place" then you are probably missing out on some big fish. I have been Musky fishing for 17 years and big blades and big rubber were absolute game changers for putting big fish into the boat.
I think Brian is spot on. Definite game changers. It is a very rare situation on LOTW for my boat where the front angler isn't throwing 9's or 10's. In my opinion its a big mistake not having big blades as the first bait through the spot about 95% of the time, cold front or not. I also agree that on urban or highly pressured waters, the situation can be different, but even there, I agree with what Brad says, big blades still consistently outperform other bait styles. Definitely no fad. |
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Location: Eagle Lake Vermilion Bay, Ontario | the double blade phenom isnt going to go away anytime soon. im not going to play scientist here,simply. they turn fish on for what ever reason . double blades are for the most part an aggressive fish bait and even more so as you increase in size from 6-7's on up to 10's and above. usually under tough conditions jerkbaits, rubber, or deeper running spinnerbaits and smaller blades will outperform. but,put a guy in the front of the boat under favorable conditions and active water temps you WANT to catch a fish above anyone else in the boat ,he can read the water and strain it , or you instruct him where to be to hit the prime contact points consistantly first,and casts like a machine...good luck to the rest of the boat, thier % goes way down unless you are mixing it up with fishing parallel and off the back side. they can be like a vacuum cleaner sucking hot active fish like a magnet from even distances.
have things changed in the past 10 yrs.? of course they always do. rarely do i throw 10's that much anymore or feel the need to i guess is better way to say except under very lowlight ,after dark,or very dark rough chaotic conditions,i havent seen where 9's wont do it as good with less stress and more speed,even or more so the past couple yrs 8's.
and not always do they eat out and act like crazed gorillas like they used to and you'd better be good at the boat these days lots of the time but....keep adapting,changing a bit to what you see going on as you go thru the day and it is still undeniable.
that is why rarely do i have 9-10's the first bait through, instead a smaller double or a single moving fast maybe a topwater and progressively moving towards the back of the boat the more aggressive baits especially and including the big doubles and finishing usually finishing with a trigger bait like a jerk,ripped crank,or rubber.
besides there's to many manufacturers ou there that will go broke if we quite throwing them! hahaa! good luck this season everyone!
steve herbeck
AML prop. emeritus,guest fishing instruction coordinator,master guide
facebook.com/AndyMyersLodge
andymyerslodge.com
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Location: oswego, il | BrianF. - 6/7/2016 1:23 PM
Sled, tell me about the Shadow Rap. Is it that much better than my other suspending stickbaits for smallies? My go-to the last few years has been the RC Styx, which has been absolute dynamite for bronze. I probably own two dozen of them and the last thing I need is to buy even more stickbaits. Still, I don't want to miss out if the SR is the smallie equivalent of the DCG. PM me if you think this is hijacking the original thread. Brian
I bought a.few. wow! They are part crankbait/twitch bait and part glide bait. When the bait pauses it turns to one side then the other. Sweet action. I do not have much time with the bait other than trying it out but I see no reason why smallmouth won't go ape poppy over it.
Another really good bait is a suspending BPS crankbait. I will try and find the model. It's part shad belly but long like a stick bait. Medium lip. I have done really well with it on sturgeon bay. |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | Andy Myers Lodge - 6/8/2016 6:27 AM the double blade phenom isnt going to go away anytime soon. im not going to play scientist here,simply. they turn fish on for what ever reason . double blades are for the most part an aggressive fish bait and even more so as you increase in size from 6-7's on up to 10's and above. usually under tough conditions jerkbaits, rubber, or deeper running spinnerbaits and smaller blades will outperform. but,put a guy in the front of the boat under favorable conditions and active water temps you WANT to catch a fish above anyone else in the boat ,he can read the water and strain it , or you instruct him where to be to hit the prime contact points consistantly first,and casts like a machine...good luck to the rest of the boat, thier % goes way down unless you are mixing it up with fishing parallel and off the back side. they can be like a vacuum cleaner sucking hot active fish like a magnet from even distances. have things changed in the past 10 yrs.? of course they always do. rarely do i throw 10's that much anymore or feel the need to i guess is better way to say except under very lowlight ,after dark,or very dark rough chaotic conditions,i havent seen where 9's wont do it as good with less stress and more speed,even or more so the past couple yrs 8's. and not always do they eat out and act like crazed gorillas like they used to and you'd better be good at the boat these days lots of the time but....keep adapting,changing a bit to what you see going on as you go thru the day and it is still undeniable. that is why rarely do i have 9-10's the first bait through, instead a smaller double or a single moving fast maybe a topwater and progressively moving towards the back of the boat the more aggressive baits especially and including the big doubles and finishing usually finishing with a trigger bait like a jerk,ripped crank,or rubber. besides there's to many manufacturers ou there that will go broke if we quite throwing them! hahaa! good luck this season everyone! steve herbeck AML prop. emeritus,guest fishing instruction coordinator,master guide facebook.com/AndyMyersLodge andymyerslodge.com Well Said Steve. I agree with ya. |
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Posts: 159
| Steve,
Yes agree very much with your post---have experienced all those things in my boat as well..
.....also interesting to hear you don't use them as much now as you used to.....that was my original question---
Funny I know a number of very good guides--but not one "master guide" I love reading that in your post script.... it always brings a chuckle....there are guides---and then there are "master guides" ---love it... |
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Location: North of Sweden! | Musky952 - 6/6/2016 10:17 PM
I think they are a very consistent bait and will be around for a long time. I say this because as a musky fisherman I get very frustrated with a lot of the pike that bite your lures. One of the lures that I use a lot is a suik and it tends to get destroyed by not only musky but hundreds of small northern. I have noticed in most of the spots that I fish that pike unless they are very big, don't go after the dbl 10s as much.
Nobody likes getting excited about a small pike ha ha.
interesting points about the big blades "filtering out" the smaller pikes!!! as an all-out pike-guy I am always open to things that might reduce the amount of time spent un-hooking smaller pike. sure, up-sizing the lure thrown MIGHT weed out some of the smaller pikes, but, honestly, pikes will (at least up here) easily attack something roughly the same size as itself.
I don't have any big (actually not small either) blades in my tackle box, so, might have to invest in something of the sort! have been thinking about that for a long time, but here in sweden blades aren't (at least not BIG ones) that popular and/or common so firstly the ones that do exist are insanely pricey and so far not to my liking... thinking about ordering parts and building my own otherwise, back in the days I used to tie a lot of flies, so why not make my own big spinners? that way I'll be able to get them to my liking at least!
tight lines
/peter |
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Location: Eagle Lake Vermilion Bay, Ontario | stormy,
well.....now you do! someones got to keep everyone in line with a crew like AML'S got! ha |
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Posts: 157
Location: West Central WI | There are good points all around. It’s easy to have opinions and feelings but they need to be backed up by scientific studies that are validated. If 100% of people use double 10’s, guess which bait catches fish? The Lunge Log has great data for types of baits, colors, etc to pick for a body of water, but the statistics only represent what people used and not the number of casts per bait to validate whether that bait actually was more efficient (more fish per cast than another bait). I think double 10’s should be in your arsenal, but used as part of that until a pattern is found depending on weather, location, and all of the other factors that cause a fish to bite or not. And, that can change from day to day. Two years ago, I developed rheumatoid arthritis that was yet to be diagnosed when I went to LOTW. I was not about to miss that trip on the account of severe pain. I cherry picked baits for the trip and when I got there, found that I was looking for the smallest baits in my box because my shoulders, wrists, fingers, knees, hips, and ankles hurt too much to pull all but these. My GoPro films show my hands shaking a lot during that trip. I ended up killing the muskies (upper 40’s) on Mepps Giant Killers, TopRaiders, Super Rattle Traps, Suicks and Slopmasters. The Mepps and Super Rattle Trap worked the best. I did lose a 50+ on the Rattle Trap – my fault during a moment of distraction. All cast well and pulled easy. Couldn’t pull double 10’s, 8’s, or any bait with a lot of drag even with a Toro Revo Winch. Maybe no 50’s due to not throwing double 10’s but I was hurting bad. To sum up, fill your box with known confidence baits, but don’t always hang your hat on double 10’s. Happy to report that the proper medicine has put my rheumatoid arthritis into a non-bothersome disease, and I’m headed back to my third trip to LOTW in a couple months. And, I’m pulling double 10’s and 8’s with confidence using my new Diawa Lexa 400 Pwr-P. Also, the power handle for my NaCl works on my Toro Revo Winch and that works just as well. It’s all about the moment arm with a longer handle. I may not be pulling them fast, but I’m pulling them. I also keep my box full of the full arsenal of baits to use until I find the one or ones that are working for any given trip. |
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Location: Hayward, WI | Some good points above. I like Rotorhead's post. While double 10's are a great tool, we all caught fish before they got popular.
One note: I've been to LOTW twice in the last two years. First year I think I only had one hit and a couple follows on a double 10. Just a follow or two on double 9's. All of my fish (not many of them - I struggled) were on double 8's or standard size spinnerbaits. The following year was better. Fish seemed more active and I had much better action on 10's. Boated some on 10's (about 1/3 on 10's, 1/3 on Depthraiders, and 1/3 on Pacemakers), including a 52.5" personal best.
I think if a guy ONLY throws 10's, they'll have some bad days, and maybe even a bad trip sometimes. But, if one is able to throw them often, and especially when conditions are right they can be fantastic. Hmmm... that could probably be said about most baits.
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Location: Contrarian Island | I put all doubles in the same pile... "doubles".. there are times they might be more cued in on 8s, at times 10s get the looks...that said, IF the weather is condusive to active fish presentations...ie, not a nasty early Aug cold front...doubles are always a great bait and imo the best choice to get #s of hits...
1 poster above said he didn't use them one year on LOTW from a shoulder problem, and he ended up "killing the muskies"...Ok well without knowing what killing it means to him it's all relative to an anglers experiences prior...
Say their boat got 15 fish that week... to some on LOTW that is the best week they have done or will ever do..but to others that might be below their standards...say another boat on LOTW the same week as that guy caught 2 x the fish they did using doubles...so did they really "kill it" then...? sure to them they did ...
Last year we put 26 with 2 over 50, just in my boat for 6.75 days...and we f'd off pike and walleye fishing quite a bit...argueably by all accounts one of the toughest summers on LOTW for patterning fish... I personally did not hear of another boat that caught more...did some catch more for the same time..sure chances are likely.. but we caught I think all but maybe one on doubles... until a boat goes out there and puts more in the boat for the same hours on the water using non doubles they aren't coming off my rod anytime soon...
Herbie, your post is pretty much what all of us have been saying... you say you don't throw them much but every TV show I have seen you in, that wasn't in the fall.. you are chuckin double blades!  |
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Location: Smith Creek | "until a boat goes out there and puts more in the boat for the same hours on the water using non doubles they aren't coming off my rod anytime soon... "
You do creel survey for all the resorts on LOTW? |
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Location: Contrarian Island | if you read my post I say there very well could be guys that catch more.. and bigger...for the same week... but from all the guys I network with, which are good fishermen, we do as well as anyone... that is my point..take it or leave it... I really don't care...just trying to help and give my perspective on the doubles 'fad'. |
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Posts: 151
Location: Chippewa Falls, WI | I'm relatively new to musky fishing so take this for whats it worth. I fished for them a lot as a kid and then recently got back into it about 4-5 years ago. I fish NW Wisconsin in the summer, spend the first week of august at mylies on LOTW and started taking a trip to St clair last year with Hulbert and I'm booked with him again this year. I haven't caught 26 muskies total with the limited experience I have and limited time to fish (maybe 4-5 days or partial days outside of the two trips). What I do know is on LOTW where A LOT of fish are caught on "structure" and figure 8's I can't imagine a bait better suited for covering water efficiently and converting boat side fish. Ask Bill Sandy what he thinks about this double bladed fad... I don't believe its a fad that will go away. Some tools are just great at what they are designed to do. Take the hammer and nail as an example, simple tool that has some variations but for the most part its unchanged for generations. Speed in peak summer conditions is a game changer and burning big blades, truly burning big blades, especially on LOTW is a great way to contact as many neutral to active fish as possible on any given day. I will admit that I'm guilty of throwing too many baits while I'm up there instead of just strapping on a double and casting all day. Another guy we know that's in camp with us the same week each year, tosses a double 8 showgirl in black/chart non-stop all week and always catches a lot of fish. One island at a time, same bait, all conditions and simply catches fish. I on the other hand have caught them on doubles, spinners, top raiders, lakeX, hellhounds, shallow raiders, creepers, and lost a giant for me, (estimated 52-53") that rolled out of the net after being in the bag that I caught on a shallow invader. I didn't have the right equipment in the past to fish big blades the way that I wanted so this off season I changed that. Before I had the mindset that I don't fish enough to justify spending money on top of the line gear. Now I see it as I don't get enough time to fish so I'm going to do everything possible to put the odds in my favor when I am on the water. There are no excuses now and no reason to not do my best to copy the results of guys like Brad who are way better at this game and spend way more time perfecting their craft. I'm thankful for the guys like him that do come on these forums letting new guys like me ask questions and to have them give great feedback and tips. I personally can't imagine turning around and then ignoring their suggestions. I'm a financial planner and I just sit back and laugh when people come to me for advice and then do something completely different even though they have little to no understanding as to what they are doing or why...I don't need to reinvent the wheel, I'll just roll with it! My HG will get a serious work out those 7 days in August! |
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| Great perspective adubs. |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | BNelson... this post is about Twin TENS... not double blades in general. Double bladed bucktails were popular LONG before the introduction of the Cowgirl and the ensuing "craze". I have a pretty good "network" of musky nuts myself, and many of them are like me. The larger #10 blade is no longer the first lure snapped on each day. A bucktail of some sort may be their first choice... but not 10s. Most guys progress to them. I know that my aging body would prefer to catch a musky using a Mepps Marabou than a Cowgirl (#10). The Cowgirl Craze may have been legit... but in my opinion its past its prime for sure. However, thanks to that "fad" it gave more people confidence to fish bucktails in general. Whether it is a twin ten or a double 8 or a simple Mepps Marabou. I believe that more guys have confidence using bucktails today thanks to the success of the Cowgirl. |
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Posts: 159
| bnelson...yes agree very much--had the same experince in my boat last summer...
though not as good of numbers as yours---but a dominating performance by 10s and Jrs...last summer in my boat---no argument or question here.....good thoughts by all on the thread over all as well.....
One could say the same thing about B. Sandy as Herbie....---I have never seen him fish on TV without throwing a Cowgirl--(summer)
I think if a guy could invent the next "Cowgirl" ----a bait that everyone catches big fish and numbers of fish on---that everyone would go out and buy multiple colors of ....that is what I would be obsessed with if I was in the bait building/selling business....
Im guessing it will be something like a triple blade bucktail as mentioned above---or perhaps the new top water blade bait by Musky Mayhem not yet out.....or something none of us had thought of.....
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Posts: 155
| Speaking of Triple Blades, I have pretty much converted to throwing the triple blade Apache bucktail. I rarely throw a double blade any more. The way the fish react to them, reminds me of when I first started throwing Cowgirls/double 10s years ago. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | well if it is JUST about double 10s... then I would agree, they aren't used as much by me in general... I prefer 9s most of the time but have seen where 10s "seem" to get hit more than 9s.. regardless of the fact that double blades were out way before the cowgirl a VERY low % of anglers were using them from what I can tell.... |
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Location: Eagle Lake Vermilion Bay, Ontario | brad...?????
geez, no one's wrong or right. way to many variables as opinions. besides, i dont have scientific data to document anything ha ! what happened to time on the water?
stormy asked about experiences and thoughts and trends SPECIFICALLY 2x10's, and moving forward. first thing i said was here to stay and added a couple small insights to think about.
to lump all doubles as 1....i dunno i see a big diff. especially when considering water color, types of conditions, as well as how many baits the fish are seeing and thier level of complacency to a bait pattern under avg. or less than avg. everyday conditions. and i've seen it ...and hear from others confirming that i highly respect as anglers with 1000's of hrs a season under thier belt a trend to faster,smaller doubles producing consistantly. just something for those that dont get to fish 400+ hrs a season to think about and those boats with all 3 or 4 throwing 10's right in front of and behind ea other.
dont get me wrong, i got plenty of 10's in the boat and still more times than not till 50 degrees (and in trout water till ice on the shorelines)someone somewhere in the boat after first bait at least some of the time could be/is likely throwing one. but.. as i said i've rarely found where a 9 didnt do anything as well as a 10 with less effort and more speed and 8's s more every year.
herbie
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Location: Contrarian Island | wasn't contradicting your post, don't take it as such thanks.
ok so you think 8s catch as many fish as 9s or 10s? with equal time in the water |
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Posts: 580
| For the way that we use them, I have a hard time differentiating between 9's and 10's, at least in terms of results. We've been using 9's more in recent trips, but still predominantly 10's. The reason for going to 9's instead of 10's is basically just due to angler fatigue--11 hours into a 14 hour day, for example--and to keep up speed with lesser effort. Herbie, you've forgotten more than I'll ever know about muskie fishing, but personally, I have a hard time believing that an active, aggressive muskie will ignore 10's but eat 9's. At least I've never felt that way on LOTW's at any time.
And that's the whole point of using big blades as first bait through: find the active, aggressive muskies. Our approach operates under the assumption, and I believe its true, that an active/aggressive muskie will show on virtually any bait that is the first bait through. So, to not waste opportunities to actually catch the fish that are very much catchable, I want the first bait through to be a bait that is (1) high visibility (is easily found and can draw fish from distance), (2) has the best hooking percentage, (3) is most effective at boatside in the 8 and (4) can be retrieved quickly, so as to maximize the number of casts to a spot. 10's fit that criteria perfectly, unless due to angler fatigue dropping down to 9's helps with the speed factor.
(The back angler's job is to try and trigger the non-aggressive or neutral fish that are seemingly unwilling to chase. Stop/go jerks and twitch baits, WTD topwaters, or deeper runners that get down into a fish's face are good choices here).
We've been using this approach for 10+ years now, and in my mind it's the most efficient approach and I've been more than happy with the results. I agree that there is not necessarily any right/wrong answer and multiple approaches could be equally successful. But I personally haven't perceived any diminution in the effectiveness of 10's...IMO the only reason we're increasingly catching more fish on 9's is because we're throwing them more. |
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Location: Eagle Lake Vermilion Bay, Ontario | matt,buddy,
never said nor implied a fish would ignore a 10 for a 9. said i dont see often where a 9 wont do what a 10 will,as good ... and probably has been that way since day 1... with way less stress,fatigue,more speed. why are you catching fish now on 9's because you are using them more? and why are you using them more? exactly. put another 10 yrs on and you'll be digging in that pile even more. maybe even the 8 pile.at seasons end you have done just fine.
if fish are saying they want 10's they get em'. but..
specifically asked about thoughts , possible trends observed ... speed,always was a main ingredient ,overlooked by alot but now with 10+ yrs of fish seeing 10's on c3's and winches and with equip now able to sustain it if you are overlooking it......and as speed increases size especially blade size,weight becomes important for sustainability. and as complacency towards a bait except under peak conditions (prob less than 5 % of the time) slightly smaller baits with speed (which were big baits 10 yrs ago) especially noticed the last season and a 1/2 have been getting more bites out and fish rolln hotter going into the turns and more hookups instead of fadeaways but overall except when fish are hopping you generally wont SEE quite as many,just as many or more actual nibbles per.. follows make tough pics anyway.
9's with more weight like 3/4 oz and a single tail, 8's with double weights and a slightly longer skirt with the blade bottoms touching or slightly over the top of the shirt with speed have been doing well enough for me to tie a whole box of them besides my seemingly hundreds's of tens.
another wrinkle as an almost opposite, and when actually using 10's ,weighted heavy heavy and slow rolled deep (easy on the shoulder and they hold the depth at slow and deep where you want them) down much deeper,parallel, off edges, and over deeper reefs.. speed up fast last 20 ft on a steep climb to the first turn. if angle is less than 45-60 you are to fast or not heavy enough . if there,they usually WILL follow ,90%+ of the fish will be caught at the boat not on the retrieve. on alot of big fish waters a high % of the bigger fish are only even remotely active or even actually there up high on structure except during very short peaks or after dark.
all systems /lakes are diff.,have diff preferences,amounts of pressure etc and we can have diff expereinces at diif times but.....
for what it is worth..im packn and headn north till nov.!! good luck and have a great season.!
herbie
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Posts: 2024
| Any mention of scientific study and fishing turns me, and I assume the fish as well, off... Anyone with an inkling of a background in research will know there are way too many variables to consider in order to get any valid, much less reliable, study. What does make sense is what Herbie say, as well as almost everyone else. Use what the fish tell you. I am fairly young, 45, but only fish a week or 2 at a time. I have equipment to throw 10s comfortably, but not burn them. 9s are easier, and showgirls, very easy. As soon as I start getting in what I call fishing shape, I have to leave. I'm getting better at this stuff, but my go to bucktails are pretty much as Herbie just described. I will never catch as many as Brad, but my forearms will be happier, and I really enjoy my trips. |
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Posts: 723
| I use dbl 10's, have caught a lot of fish on them, mainly a night tool for me.
I have a handful of lakes they absolutely do not work on. I'd welcome B. Nelson to come show me how to hammer fish on them over any other bucktail. Cause I'd get a kick out of the look on his face at the end of the day as to how he got schooled by 7's & 8's.
Every lake is different. a lot are the same, a lot of lakes have a great dbl 10 bite. I haven't exactly figured out why
they don't eat/chase 10's on some lakes. But I can assure you that if you're not using smaller blades you're missing out on some great fishing...
A buddy and I even had a great experience on GB in between a well known guide out there and another couple who put many fish in the boat. It was 3 boats working a spot over. Both other boats were tossing 10's. we started out using them, and as we started our progression towards smaller blades, we started piling up fish in between these 2 boats.
I think we finished with a 7 fish day by using smaller, and I believe they might have caught 1 between the 2 boats using 10's.
At one point they were literally casting at our boat as it seemed that's where the fish were
Had we not tried smaller blades during what seemed like a "tougher" bite, we would've have ever known that the fish were going ape chit over smaller stuff.
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Location: Contrarian Island | my posts above were for the entire double blade category, yes, the original poster said 10s..but to me doubles are a unique bait category that trigger fish... double 7s, double 8, 9s, 10s, 12s.. put em all together... and I do agree sometimes they want 8s over 10s, and some lakes maybe 10s are not a great option... my posts above were basically stating that when fish are active, double blades are one of if not the best bet to get lots of hits... I won't disagree sometimes 8s are better... just like your 7 fish day to their 1 or 2... that can easily be flip flopped on a different lake or different day or both...
if you read all my posts you'll see that. |
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