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Posts: 261
| Howdy,
The video link interviewing the touring pro was very good, however, it was also very telling in that the Pro openly acknowledged that he was frustrated that FFS essentially negated all of the skill and knowledge that he had cultivated over a lifetime of angling. This is not dissimilar to candle makers decrying the invention of electricity.
I think that’s at the core of a lot of this. It’s viewed as a lazy shortcut (which is fair) that some people can use to exploit a resource. That of course fuels a lot of other emotions that can overtake our ability to use logic and reason.
Case in point, I definitely don’t support sharp shooting Muskie, but anyone who has fished bass on a bed (totally legal in many parts of the country), or worked a school of walleye on sonar where you can watch your jig on the screen and see how the walleye react to it, or cast to shallow spring pike while sight fishing, has essentially done the exact same thing to the fish that a sharpshooter does. I’m willing to bet that most of us have done at least some of these things at one point or time. None of this is new to fishing and it still requires some ethical decision making on behalf of the angler. FFS is no different.
Obviously we are more sensitive to the subject because of how few Muskies there are to begin with and because of how susceptible they are to mishandling. But we have met this enemy before and they are us. Anyone who has seen how Muskies fled virtually every castable piece of structure on Vermillion for the safety of open water can attest to our ability to harass a fish regardless of wether we have FFS or not.
Take care,
Ruddiger
Edited by Ruddiger 3/29/2024 1:10 PM
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Slamr - 3/29/2024 12:51 PM
" 16 Leech Lake muskies in 2.5 days in the year 2023"
And you're saying that THIS statistic is going to STOP people from fishing? Maybe best to keep stats like that under your hat before you cause more people to buy FFS.
I have heard stats more impressive - or very sad, depending on how you look at it. Just big, dumb (hungry) fish roaming around open water, very vulnerable at certain places and times. Nothing new. Someone with no musky experience at all can do it opening day. I say regulation required, others say leave it be... |
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Posts: 309
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Thanks for taking the time to post, Ruddiger. That "pro" is very good at his craft.
https://www.in-fisherman.com/editorial/64-Year-Muskie-Record-Falls-i...
Regardless of whether stocked down there or the natural reproducing populations up here, this type of fishing is not sustainable for muskies. It's only going to get more effective and advanced.
Edited by Angling Oracle 3/29/2024 1:39 PM
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Angling Oracle - 3/29/2024 1:30 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post, Ruddiger. Regardless of whether stocked down there or the natural reproducing populations up here, this type of fishing is not sustainable for muskies. It's only going to get more effective and advanced.
You are correct. People say, "oh you're just bummed because the new kid catches more fish than you after you put in 20 years of work to figure it out". Yup, that's a small part of it. The real reason most of us are bummed is because muskie fishing, as we know it, is going away. There is one thing that can be done to combat what FFS sonar is doing aside from banning it, and that is to stock ALOT more fish. But we all know MN DNR is not going to do it. They aren't going to ban it either so all I can do is hope I can get out and catch the one I've been looking for for 25 years before it's too late. Sounds dramatic, I know. |
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Posts: 1206
| I'm a baby boomer and I have lived California, Colorado and have fished all over Wisconsin, Minnesota, and some in Ontario.
I've fished out of Canoes, Row boats with no engine or in row boats with a four horse or a 15 horse, my dads 16 foot Starcraft or lots of rental boats or with guides. I've caught a lot of fish of all kinds fishing in Canoes or small row boats in small Rivers or portaging into small off the beaten path pot holes. No tech required. I love a boat with a set of oars. Our best way to catch a Muskie? Boat control, With a strong trolling motor 24 or 36 volt battery system, point the bow into the wind and follow the shoreline. It was hard to fish behind dad when he was up front (I spent my whole vacation netting his fish)
I like to fish out in open water and when i see bait on my Sonor I mark my map and I go back and the bait is in the same spots over and over. I caught my biggest fish ever out in open water. My Sonor is primitive and portable. If you fish a lot you are going to catch big fish here and there. Record fish?? Of all the time on the water do you really have a chance at a record regardless of tech or boat? For us two chances both by my dad. First chance when my dad was a kid living in Racine Wis. he would go down and fish on Lake Michigan (late1930's and 40's) and catch I think they were Green Perch similar to Yellow Perch in size. He would catch them by the 100's and one time he got one witch was pushing 5 pounds on a bathroom scale.no picture no nothing he ate it. I think they are still in there but quite rare and in some places you can't even fish for them or very have restrictive limits. Maybe I should look into them and report back. The second chance when we lived in California we would fish in the surf or on the rocks. (in the ocean) Where we fished in the surf was a deep water beach witch was a lousy swimming, surfing, boogie boarding place. the waves would break right on shore. We would fish for Corbina in the surf on the sand or if we fish in the surf by the rocks we would catch different types of fish and if we went out on the rocks if was all the different rock fish. when fishing the rocks if you didn't keep a eye on the waves it would be a good place to die. One day in the early 80's my dad took a day off from work and went fishing and I was between College and my first real job. my dad didn't want to wake me up to go on this trip that morning. (I think he wanted some me time) So he went off by himself. He was fishing off the rocks and caught a Corbina (witch we have never done off the rocks) and it was flopping around on the rocks and the rocks cut his line and before he could grab it and wave washed it out to sea and it was gone. Corbina records are like 9-7 pounds depending on line class. This fish looked like a 10-12 pound Walleye and IF he took his kid with him he would have a record class fish. Record fish are very rare regardless of technology. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm sure some folks are abusing it, but an observation: At around 3000 reads, no one has jumped in and described a crazy successful day sharpshooting muskies. Maybe the two primary reasons why not; a very limited number of folks actually doing it, and anyone who does after reading this thread would not feel empowered to brag about it.
I hope I'm right. |
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| sworrall - 3/29/2024 2:19 PM
I'm sure some folks are abusing it, but an observation: At around 3000 reads, no one has jumped in and described a crazy successful day sharpshooting muskies. Maybe the two primary reasons why not; a very limited number of folks actually doing it, and anyone who does after reading this thread would not feel empowered to brag about it.
I hope I'm right.
I hope you are right, as well. |
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Posts: 261
| Howdy,
To Steve’s point, SHAME can often be a far greater tool to curb behavior than any regulation can. Furthermore, we as Muskie fisherman have proven to be particularly vocal on issues we are passionate about. We changed the world of angling when it came to catch and release, proper fish handling, stocking, spearing, closed seasons, length limits, etc.
Years ago when some resorts were promoting spearing on Cass we made sure word got out on which resorts were in favor of it and which ones supported doing the right thing. We can easily do the same with guides who are sharpshooters. Speaking for myself, I would never hire one who made their living doing it.
It doesn’t take long for word to get around and become a movement, just ask Bud Light.
Take care,
Ruddiger
Edited by Ruddiger 3/29/2024 8:00 PM
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Posts: 309
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | ^^ Great points, Ruddiger. The sooner Muskies Inc / Muskies Canada take some position on it, the easier it will be for guides and lodges to have an out to not have to use it and advertise as such.
I had this link on the moved/binned FFS post, but putting it here again from Pete, Dave and Scott Kieper for those that missed it the first time around. Kirby's concerns sound very much like Scott's where I've got the clip started.
https://youtu.be/9B4JOt3QWfk?si=H3W773j3atdKGkq-&t=1330
Edited by Angling Oracle 3/29/2024 6:48 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Angling Oracle - 3/29/2024 6:46 PM
^^ Great points, Ruddiger. The sooner Muskies Inc / Muskies Canada take some position on it, the easier it will be for guides and lodges to have an out to not have to use it and advertise as such.
I had this link on the moved/binned FFS post, but putting it here again from Pete, Dave and Scott Kieper for those that missed it the first time around. Kirby's concerns sound very much like Scott's where I've got the clip started.
https://youtu.be/9B4JOt3QWfk?si=H3W773j3atdKGkq-&t=1330
I believe this will be brought to a vote at the next Muskies Inc Executive Committee meeting in a few days. |
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Posts: 307
| Just a comment on the ‘where do u draw the line?’ argument.
U just draw it!!!
Whether a baseball bat,golf ball interior or the draw weight or type of bow,just draw it. |
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Posts: 261
| Howdy,
When I go Muskie fishing in Canada, I often chase walleyes for an hour or two each day to catch numbers of fish (usually to have some midday fun between AM and PM Muskie sessions.) I don’t do it for size, just numbers. I also don’t fish for any fish that may suffer barotrauma due to fishing too deep. I sometimes keep some small fish for a fish fry.
Because I’m not into walleyes hardcore, I rely on my technology and don't drop on structure that may hold fish unless I see them on my electronics. I’ll pick a spot on the Lakemaster chart that looks likely to hold fish, scope it out on 2D sonar, drop waypoints on any larger fish arches I see, and then once I’ve scanned enough areas to rule out dead water, I go back and hover over the arches on the waypoint with spot lock, and drop a jig and worm on them. All of this is done with Lakemasters and 2D sonar.
Using this method, I catch a walleye on my first drop almost every time. I can watch them react to my jig as it moves on the screen in 2D and dial in my presentation to match their mood. When the bite slows, I work around the waypoint or move to the next one and repeat my success. Am I a sharpshooter?
Take care,
Ruddiger
Edited by Ruddiger 3/30/2024 7:50 PM
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Posts: 307
| Hi R! Not sure if u were addressing me or not. I have no definition in mind for sharpshooting so can’t answer your question. All i was referencing was the argument one can’t draw the line cause u can’t decide where to draw it- which is nonsense cause we do it all the time in every Sport. Season dates,limits, number of hooks, name it, lines are drawn all the time.
Edited by dickP 3/30/2024 8:26 PM
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| Ruddiger - 3/30/2024 7:21 PM Howdy, When I go Muskie fishing in Canada, I often chase walleyes for an hour or two each day to catch numbers of fish (usually to have some midday fun between AM and PM Muskie sessions.) I don’t do it for size, just numbers. I also don’t fish for any fish that may suffer barotrauma due to fishing too deep. I sometimes keep some small fish for a fish fry. Because I’m not into walleyes hardcore, I rely on my technology and don't drop on structure that may hold fish unless I see them on my electronics. I’ll pick a spot on the Lakemaster chart that looks likely to hold fish, scope it out on 2D sonar, drop waypoints on any larger fish arches I see, and then once I’ve scanned enough areas to rule out dead water, I go back and hover over the arches on the waypoint with spot lock, and drop a jig and worm on them. All of this is done with Lakemasters and 2D sonar. Using this method, I catch a walleye on my first drop almost every time. I can watch them react to my jig as it moves on the screen in 2D and dial in my presentation to match their mood. When the bite slows, I work around the waypoint or move to the next one and repeat my success. Am I a sharpshooter? Take care, Ruddiger Nope. That’s not even close to sharpshooting with FFS in my opinion. |
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Posts: 261
| Howdy,
Hi Dick, no I wasn’t addressing you, I was just raising a larger point about the slippery slope of condemning technology and the acceptance level we have with it in some areas and the discomfort we have with it in others.
In both scenarios (mine for walleye in 2D or what sharpshooters do to Muskies) the technology has given us the ability to pressure the resource in ways that were unheard of when I got into Muskies almost 30 years ago.
My walleye scenario may not be exactly the same as sharpshooting but I doubt the walleye could tell the difference. I also don’t think I would have caught them any faster with mega live.
Regarding the drawing of lines, you are spot on in that we do it all the time wether it be statewide or on a lake by lake basis.
Take care,
Ruddiger
Edited by Ruddiger 3/30/2024 9:58 PM
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Posts: 115
| Seems killer app fishing tech arrives once or twice in a generation. The buzz, debate, results from FFS prove it is a killer app.
Four killer app fishing technologies plus maniacal effort and devotion took me from beginner to master angler in about 10 years. I would not be the expert I am without Gps, side-imaging sonar, Torqeedo motor, and Li battery. Some dude with all this same tech, but lacking my 4000 hours on the lake, would not do as well as me.
Now I am trying to fend off the kids with FFS. The kids lack my 4000 hours on the lake, but they might do as well or better than me with FFS.
Therefore I bought the FFS. I plan on using it mostly for trolling up 25lb freshwater Stripers, also throwing big spoons to marks around abyss bait balls. Also largemouth fishing with live crayfish ala Bill Murphy, something I have not done in years.
Fishing will not be same. I don't like they way rich kids will be able "buy" fish by spending enough on even better tech, and not have to spend the 4000 hours on the lake. On the other hand, there is a romance, mystery, memories, weather, mishaps, failures, beauty in those 4000 hours the kids would never see. I did all that! |
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Location: Eau Claire, WI | Most of the “pros” spend their entire careers glorifying the catch. Look at all the social media pictures. All for money and fame. |
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Posts: 735
| Great discussion so far and at this point I had no skin in this game until this morning when I caught the Jimmy Houston Outdoors with the muskie fishing segment in Minnesota. Kind of made me think everything I learned threw books,maps, guided trips, and mostly time and experience on the water, 40 plus years, just got thrown out the window. Kdawg |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | kdawg - 3/31/2024 9:19 AM
Great discussion so far and at this point I had no skin in this game until this morning when I caught the Jimmy Houston Outdoors with the muskie fishing segment in Minnesota. Kind of made me think everything I learned threw books,maps, guided trips, and mostly time and experience on the water, 40 plus years, just got thrown out the window. Kdawg
I really don’t think people understand how much knowledge FFS can give you until you really use it. It would be almost as good as draining the lake and seeing where every fish hangs out and be able to cast on their heads until they bite. It can make you understand seasonal movements, daily behaviors, how they relate to structure, bait and your lure. So it really does take away your 40 years of perceived knowledge. It will change how you fish, and enlighten you to the true nature of the fish. It’s nothing like side imaging, or anything else. People call it a tool. Yes it is. The tool gives you infinite knowledge of the fish which makes you unstoppable unless they really just aren’t biting that day. Which definitely does happen. |
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Location: Duluth | Kirby Budrow - 3/31/2024 2:22 PM
kdawg - 3/31/2024 9:19 AM
Great discussion so far and at this point I had no skin in this game until this morning when I caught the Jimmy Houston Outdoors with the muskie fishing segment in Minnesota. Kind of made me think everything I learned threw books,maps, guided trips, and mostly time and experience on the water, 40 plus years, just got thrown out the window. Kdawg
I really don’t think people understand how much knowledge FFS can give you until you really use it. It would be almost as good as draining the lake and seeing where every fish hangs out and be able to cast on their heads until they bite. It can make you understand seasonal movements, daily behaviors, how they relate to structure, bait and your lure. So it really does take away your 40 years of perceived knowledge. It will change how you fish, and enlighten you to the true nature of the fish. It’s nothing like side imaging, or anything else. People call it a tool. Yes it is. The tool gives you infinite knowledge of the fish which makes you unstoppable unless they really just aren’t biting that day. Which definitely does happen.
yea, but thats why it's good and shame on you for being jealous/wagging your finger at the kids. |
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Posts: 103
| Very interesting discussion everyone. I can see both sides as FFS is an amazing tool, but without extra caution it could be the downfall of certain populations.
One more thing to consider (at least with my knowledge of our fishing regs in N.W Ontario and Manitoba) we have to be careful wishing for bans or more laws. I know it isn't an exact comparison, but Lake Sturgeon were "at risk" and instead of coming up with more protective laws, it was easier to just ban fishing for them overall. I'm ALL for protecting our resources, please don't take this the wrong way. Like sturgeon fishing, musky fishing is still a relatively small part of the overall fishing industry (again relatively!).
What is more likely, the gov't listening carefully to concerns and doing a bunch of research to construct new laws to carefully manage and protect a certain species or simply copying our current regulations and taking sturgeon out and putting musky in? That is a scary thought. It would ultimately protect the muskies forever, but that means no one gets to target them.
Manitoba regs:
Winnipeg River between the Manitoba/Ontario border and the Pine Falls Generating Station – closed to lake sturgeon fishing all year.
Ontario regs:
Lake Sturgeon Season: closed all year
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Posts: 64
| It's funny to me that many people who are against it, actually end up admitting they have it... "but only use it for X purpose." You can't have it both ways. There will always be the occasional unethical person out there who abuses whatever it is. No different than people sitting on panfish beds early in the season and cleaning them out. Is it legal, yes, ethical, no. Also I don't think it's "kids" buying most of this technology. It's middle aged plus people with disposable income. If you don't want to use it fine, but you don't need to tell everyone else what they should do. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Eastman03 - 4/1/2024 9:15 AM
Very interesting discussion everyone. I can see both sides as FFS is an amazing tool, but without extra caution it could be the downfall of certain populations.
One more thing to consider (at least with my knowledge of our fishing regs in N.W Ontario and Manitoba) we have to be careful wishing for bans or more laws. I know it isn't an exact comparison, but Lake Sturgeon were "at risk" and instead of coming up with more protective laws, it was easier to just ban fishing for them overall. I'm ALL for protecting our resources, please don't take this the wrong way. Like sturgeon fishing, musky fishing is still a relatively small part of the overall fishing industry (again relatively!).
What is more likely, the gov't listening carefully to concerns and doing a bunch of research to construct new laws to carefully manage and protect a certain species or simply copying our current regulations and taking sturgeon out and putting musky in? That is a scary thought. It would ultimately protect the muskies forever, but that means no one gets to target them.
Manitoba regs:
Winnipeg River between the Manitoba/Ontario border and the Pine Falls Generating Station – closed to lake sturgeon fishing all year.
Ontario regs:
Lake Sturgeon Season: closed all year
Thanks for the contribution, Eastman03.
The Sturgeon situation was a binary choice, no nuances available:
Conservation closure (sturgeon): no fishing by anyone.
or
No closure: continued netting harvest by rights-based fishers and continued sturgeon decline.
There is no in-between. With a conservation closure there is no possibility of a "catch and release" option. You are still interfering with the resource and possibly affecting reproduction. You don't want to be defending a rec (fun) fishery when you have forced rights-based to stop harvesting - unwinnable position.
The FFS situation (and future improvements) can be regulated with some nuance, but the reality is fishing is going to decline in quality from here on out the more ubiquitous it becomes.
Fisheries that we have like Lake Winnipeg are not going to be affected by something like FFS, the muskies that you and I fish just east of us here are though.
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | sworrall - 3/30/2024 1:49 PM
Angling Oracle - 3/29/2024 6:46 PM
^^ Great points, Ruddiger. The sooner Muskies Inc / Muskies Canada take some position on it, the easier it will be for guides and lodges to have an out to not have to use it and advertise as such.
I had this link on the moved/binned FFS post, but putting it here again from Pete, Dave and Scott Kieper for those that missed it the first time around. Kirby's concerns sound very much like Scott's where I've got the clip started.
https://youtu.be/9B4JOt3QWfk?si=H3W773j3atdKGkq-&t=1330
I believe this will be brought to a vote at the next Muskies Inc Executive Committee meeting in a few days.
A motion to discuss having a position, or are there actually going to some possible positions tabled?
Edited by Angling Oracle 4/1/2024 10:41 AM
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Posts: 2009
| After reading this thread, my first question is "Who decided what is ethical?" Is it immoral to use FFS? Is it illegal? If not, it's not unethical. Some are now looking to ban it? I am not for FFS, I do believe it will affect fishing big time. But c'mon, the calling this unethical is going a bit far. Use Fair Chase instead.
I also find it hypocritical for guides griping about FFS. Guides fish much more than us, which pressures fish more and will result in more delayed mortality by simply catching more fish. WHich to me is basically what most here are arguing about. SO, let's ban guides. After all, that's the ethical thing to do.
Finally, I was listening to the new Meateater podcast, and the Musky Elite reputation has come to the attention of hunting crews. The fist 30 something minutes were spent on the holier than thou attitude some have regarding muskies. Gave me a chuckle while driving to my first job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve5n8nk1lCc&t=1778s
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Location: Chisholm, MN | ARmuskyaddict - 4/3/2024 8:47 AM
After reading this thread, my first question is "Who decided what is ethical?" Is it immoral to use FFS? Is it illegal? If not, it's not unethical. Some are now looking to ban it? I am not for FFS, I do believe it will affect fishing big time. But c'mon, the calling this unethical is going a bit far. Use Fair Chase instead.
I also find it hypocritical for guides griping about FFS. Guides fish much more than us, which pressures fish more and will result in more delayed mortality by simply catching more fish. WHich to me is basically what most here are arguing about. SO, let's ban guides. After all, that's the ethical thing to do.
Finally, I was listening to the new Meateater podcast, and the Musky Elite reputation has come to the attention of hunting crews. The fist 30 something minutes were spent on the holier than thou attitude some have regarding muskies. Gave me a chuckle while driving to my first job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve5n8nk1lCc&t=1778s
Unethical and Fair Chase fall under the same category. I do actually agree to some extent about guides. They can put more pressure on the lakes and should have to compensate for it some how. They also do good things by introducing more people to fishing and teaching them to be ethical (or teach them fair chase). Healthy release tactics, ethics toward other fishermen, safety, advocate for stocking, limits...all good things. |
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| To me, if FFS is unethical, then mega SI/DI could be considered the same. If it is decided that it should be banned, fine, I don't plan on buying. But declaring one form of high def electronics unethical and leaving all others unscathed seems problematic to me. |
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| ARmuskyaddict,
There are lots of things that are legal but still immoral and or unethical. There are some things that are legal that should be banned but aren't. Calling it unethical is not going too far if that is how someone feels about it.
You and Kirby bring up an interesting point regarding guides impact (positive and negative) on the public resource they benefit from.
Edited by cabbage 4/3/2024 12:13 PM
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Location: SE/WI | Jason Mitchell's thoughts on a Ban. https://youtu.be/zufU3uXJOaY?si=dEW5Zz-Dk_z9MIDk |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Angling Oracle - 4/1/2024 10:39 AM
sworrall - 3/30/2024 1:49 PM
Angling Oracle - 3/29/2024 6:46 PM
^^ Great points, Ruddiger. The sooner Muskies Inc / Muskies Canada take some position on it, the easier it will be for guides and lodges to have an out to not have to use it and advertise as such.
I had this link on the moved/binned FFS post, but putting it here again from Pete, Dave and Scott Kieper for those that missed it the first time around. Kirby's concerns sound very much like Scott's where I've got the clip started.
https://youtu.be/9B4JOt3QWfk?si=H3W773j3atdKGkq-&t=1330
I believe this will be brought to a vote at the next Muskies Inc Executive Committee meeting in a few days.
A motion to discuss having a position, or are there actually going to some possible positions tabled?
I am writing up a simple few-sentence position statement, which will then be presented to the EC for comments and a motion to pass if no edits are recommended. |
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