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Location: Eau Claire, WI | Jason Mitchell is spot on with his opinion. |
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| There was a time when chart plotters were going to be the demise of fishing, and trolling motors, spot lock, name something.
Fished with a guy some years back who didn't even have electronics on his boat, no trolling motor, just your basic tin boat tiller. Saw a bunch, caught a few...
I can see why people are upset over this, but if you don't know where to look to begin with are you really going to catch any more fish by finding one on the screen and casting at it until the cows come home vs driving all over the place and casting at good looking structure hoping to find a hungry one? |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | sworrall - 4/3/2024 1:08 PM
Angling Oracle - 4/1/2024 10:39 AM
sworrall - 3/30/2024 1:49 PM
Angling Oracle - 3/29/2024 6:46 PM
^^ Great points, Ruddiger. The sooner Muskies Inc / Muskies Canada take some position on it, the easier it will be for guides and lodges to have an out to not have to use it and advertise as such.
I had this link on the moved/binned FFS post, but putting it here again from Pete, Dave and Scott Kieper for those that missed it the first time around. Kirby's concerns sound very much like Scott's where I've got the clip started.
https://youtu.be/9B4JOt3QWfk?si=H3W773j3atdKGkq-&t=1330
I believe this will be brought to a vote at the next Muskies Inc Executive Committee meeting in a few days.
A motion to discuss having a position, or are there actually going to some possible positions tabled?
I am writing up a simple few-sentence position statement, which will then be presented to the EC for comments and a motion to pass if no edits are recommended.
We all appreciate what Muskies Inc. and Muskies Canada do for muskies and musky fishing. On a personal note, very much appreciate your contributions on that board as I have had similar positions up here, and although rewarding at times, there is a lot of downside as far toll on your what was your free time, family, work and so on. Thanks again.
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Location: Chisholm, MN | esoxaddict - 4/3/2024 1:50 PM
There was a time when chart plotters were going to be the demise of fishing, and trolling motors, spot lock, name something.
Fished with a guy some years back who didn't even have electronics on his boat, no trolling motor, just your basic tin boat tiller. Saw a bunch, caught a few...
I can see why people are upset over this, but if you don't know where to look to begin with are you really going to catch any more fish by finding one on the screen and casting at it until the cows come home vs driving all over the place and casting at good looking structure hoping to find a hungry one?
Have you used it in a lake where muskies frequent open water? You don't just find one and cast until the cows come home. You find a pile of them and cast until the cows come home.
If the MN DNR would stock more fish it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But the fisheries were already suffering due to lack of stocking and increased fishing pressure. Adding FFS on top only increases the pressure by ALOT. It's not just someone coming out and trying their luck and maybe gets a few follows like it used to me. It now means that any bass/walleye/novice muskie guy, anyone who can use a rod and FFS can now go out and catch as many as they want before they get tired of it over the course of a season. The resources on how to do it are unlimited on youtube. It's so easy.
I am not for controlling people and banning something because it's too good. But if it is not banned (which it won't be) then something else has to give. The only solution is more stocking in my mind. I did state that I think it should be banned, I think even in this thread. What I really mean is I wish it didn't exist. Charts, trolling motors, etc., sure they are game changers. But this is a game changer X10. |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | "It now means that any bass/walleye/novice muskie guy, anyone who can use a rod and FFS can now go out and catch as many as they want before they get tired of it over the course of a season. The resources on how to do it are unlimited on youtube. It's so easy."
Seriously guys, this is NOT going to sell to anyone but muskie guides and want to be muskie guides.
Think like a decision maker: you allocate millions (not as many as we'd like) to create a fishable population, the size limits are already "high" compared to what MOST anglers would think a trophy is, and someone is going to tell me that the plans they made are WORKING to well because of this new technology?!
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | ^^ Good take, Kirby.
It needs to be regulated in musky fishing, there has to be refuges from it.
Edited by Angling Oracle 4/3/2024 3:11 PM
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Location: Eau Claire, WI | Maybe worry more about teaching proper conservation practices. You’re stuck on thinking everyone is going to misuse it. I’ve had it for an entire season and not once did I use it to sharp shoot a fish. Lots of anglers similar. Focus your efforts on teaching proper conservation and practical uses vs trying to ban. Just a thought.
Edited by FishinXtreme 4/3/2024 4:12 PM
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | FishinXtreme - 4/3/2024 3:41 PM
Maybe worry more about teaching proper conservation practices. You’re stuck on thinking everyone is going to miss use it. I’ve had it for an entire season and not once did I use it to sharp shoot a fish. Lots of anglers similar. Focus your efforts on teaching proper conservation and practical uses vs trying to ban. Just a thought.
At least I'm not alone in this thinking... |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Slamr - 4/3/2024 3:57 PM
FishinXtreme - 4/3/2024 3:41 PM
Maybe worry more about teaching proper conservation practices. You’re stuck on thinking everyone is going to miss use it. I’ve had it for an entire season and not once did I use it to sharp shoot a fish. Lots of anglers similar. Focus your efforts on teaching proper conservation and practical uses vs trying to ban. Just a thought.
At least I'm not alone in this thinking...
That’s been my main focus for many years. The problem is you have people who simply will not listen. They are stuck in their own way. They say things like, “oh you’re just jealous because you can’t afford it”, or “we release them all anyway”. Sounds familiar right? Those few people catch more fish scoping one season than most people do in 5 years. Or more. I’m not trying to ban it either. I just wish it didn’t exist and the DNR would stock more to make up for what it’s doing. |
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Location: Eau Claire, WI | That’s only a small percentage. All this discussion is only going to make anglers want it more. Education needs to be priority. Have the big organizations denounce the main issues with it. Teach how to use it properly. When SI came out it was the same game changer. More cribs and structure was found than ever imagined. Panfish took
A beating. This only will be solved by teaching proper etiquettes and not glorifying the catch. Fishing is so much more. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Kirby Budrow - 4/3/2024 4:21 PM
Slamr - 4/3/2024 3:57 PM
FishinXtreme - 4/3/2024 3:41 PM
Maybe worry more about teaching proper conservation practices. You’re stuck on thinking everyone is going to miss use it. I’ve had it for an entire season and not once did I use it to sharp shoot a fish. Lots of anglers similar. Focus your efforts on teaching proper conservation and practical uses vs trying to ban. Just a thought.
At least I'm not alone in this thinking...
That’s been my main focus for many years. The problem is you have people who simply will not listen. They are stuck in their own way. They say things like, “oh you’re just jealous because you can’t afford it”, or “we release them all anyway”. Sounds familiar right? Those few people catch more fish scoping one season than most people do in 5 years. Or more. I’m not trying to ban it either. I just wish it didn’t exist and the DNR would stock more to make up for what it’s doing.
The "or more" sounds about right.
The lodge owner then asking me what we should do about it. So here I am.
Honestly we don't think anyone here is going to abuse it. Probably most of you enjoy the way you are fishing now and will be repulsed by how easy it will be if you go this way (when I mean easy - it is not right now easy, but you will figure it out quick). Maybe you will catch one or two and then decide it is not for you (until you don't catch going back to the usual ways). Jigging muskies (or pike) using no tech or using FFS and getting railed is addictive - and there are folks that succumb to that addiction. Then they tell a friend, then they tell two friends, etc. Then your lake is #&*!*d. Sounds like Wabigoon...
I hope whatever Steve is proposing gets some traction.
Do you think if we didn't say BAN anyone would pay attention?
PS - it should be banned, as this is just year 4 or 5 or whatever. They are just getting started with it and are at version 3 of Livescope now (the other two are not close yet). It's going to get much more effective and easy to use than the primitive stuff they have dribbled out now.
Edited by Angling Oracle 4/3/2024 5:02 PM
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| If a law is passed banning FFS, law suits will follow, without a doubt. Could be tied up for years on appeal. Another possibility is that legislators, to avoid said litigation, could include all electronics that could be used to spot fish, including SI/DI in the ban.
Are you sure you want to go down that path? |
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| The answer, as always, is more fish in more places. Looking at what's happened in MN over the last 20 years solidifies a few things. We all said it was going to be amazing and it was. We all said it wasn't going to last, and it didn't. Not to the extent of what everyone got used to anyway, and that was going to happen either way - new reservoir syndrome being what it is.
The other thing we all saw coming was the resistance from all the wealthy riparian land owners who don't want those awful fish in "their" lakes. Come on.. We all know who is eating all the walleyes. Look down the bar at all the guys who haven't seen their johnsons in 20 years. So what is it? Misinformation about what muskies do and don't do to a lake? Or maybe they just don't want US around the lakes. Why would that be? |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | SO the thought is that livescope skips the learning it takes to get Joe Shmoe on a fish. Isn't that also what guides do? Spend money for Joe Guide, he puts you on fish, you get pics and you pay your $400-700 + tip.
Since there are a few guides advocating to ban FFS because it makes fishing too easy...if YOU all stopped fishing, same result, right? Less unskilled people catching, handling, and injuring fish.
Oh, will that hurt your business? You're ok saying that it's ok to hurt the people who create and sell the tech that destroys the resource so I figure you're ok losing money, too. |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Slamr - 4/3/2024 5:48 PM
SO the thought is that livescope skips the learning it takes to get Joe Shmoe on a fish. Isn't that also what guides do? Spend money for Joe Guide, he puts you on fish, you get pics and you pay your $400-700 + tip.
Since there are a few guides advocating to ban FFS because it makes fishing too easy...if YOU all stopped fishing, same result, right? Less unskilled people catching, handling, and injuring fish.
Oh, will that hurt your business? You're ok saying that it's ok to hurt the people who create and sell the tech that destroys the resource so I figure you're ok losing money, too.
Or will you all at least sign a pledge that you won't use FFS, SI, Downscan, or regular old sonar....don't want to be using this new fangled tools to cut out the spirit of the chase. FFS is live, the others show you an instant ago. |
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| If any swinging dick can catch all the fish with nothing but a piece of equipment, what good is a guide? What about the you tube segment of the musky fishing population? If anybody who can fog a mirror can go out and catch muskies, they'll be standing on a street corner in a trench coat flashing people and yelling "HEY, LOOK AT ME!!" Then there's the folks who rely on selling lures (that are mostly junk) to naive anglers who don't know it doesn't matter what you throw as long as you put it in front of a fish. I guess I'm old, but I just want to go out there and fish, maybe catch a few, preferably in the company of as few people as possible. I don't care what the great unwashed public does unless it diminishes my enjoyment of the sport, and I only care about the fish and the fisheries because I like to catch fish. If I cared about the fish that much I'd trade my fishing gear for scuba gear, or sell everything I own and open up an aquarium... |
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Location: Duluth | Slamr - 4/3/2024 3:04 PM
"It now means that any bass/walleye/novice muskie guy, anyone who can use a rod and FFS can now go out and catch as many as they want before they get tired of it over the course of a season. The resources on how to do it are unlimited on youtube. It's so easy."
Seriously guys, this is NOT going to sell to anyone but muskie guides and want to be muskie guides.
Think like a decision maker: you allocate millions (not as many as we'd like) to create a fishable population, the size limits are already "high" compared to what MOST anglers would think a trophy is, and someone is going to tell me that the plans they made are WORKING to well because of this new technology?!
I can't disagree with this statement, the frustrating part is translating the uptick in interest to an uptick in membership/participation in orgs that maintain the fisheries.
I think we need to take a very hard look at what management looks like, whether it's sanctuary fisheries, strict technology regulations, or acceptance that we will have fewer fisheries period. I do think it's abundantly clear that the resources and political will aren't there to expand fisheries.
Also would not mind it one bit if we went back to the stoneage electronically, as long as we get to keep modern rods and reels  |
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| Howdy,
Musky fisherman (myself included) are a hypocritical enigma. We spend most of our time preaching proper fish handling techniques and worrying about how OTHER people may harm the fish, and then spend the majority of OUR time and money trying to violently stab 5/0 hooks into a fishes face with as much force as possible.
Catching fish hurts fish. Catching fish occasionally kills fish even after they swim away. In many ways, we would do a lot more good for the resource by simply banning all barbed hooks and requiring all barbless hooks. Same goes for mandatory catch and release. This makes a lot more sense than banning electronics.
Take care,
Ruddiger
Edited by Ruddiger 4/4/2024 9:25 AM
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| All I hear when I read most of these posts is a bunch of old guys yelling "stay off my lawn!" |
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| We are the problem there is just too many of us, homes build in swamps (homes everywhere) Bigger boats, Jet ski's, Wake boats, and if you are looking for quietness you really have to pick your spots and same goes for the fish. (they like it quiet too.)
Fall 1984 still lived in California went up North for the first time in the fall when school career was over. One evening during the work week I walked out on a pier at a resort of some friends where I could see the whole lake I it was dark I could only see three places that were lit up. 2009 (25 years later) I did the same thing and it looked no different then summer. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | https://www.outdoorsfirst.com/bass/article/fine-tuning-for-success/
Interesting piece on using the tech. |
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Location: Madison, WI | To all those saying how any Joe angler can now just beat up open water fish with FFS I think you're clueless. Open water fish of all species are the EASIEST to find with all electronics! Kirby said how people will find a pack of fish and beat them up to catch as many as you want. That same pack of fish is easily found with SI. If those open water fish are so easily catchable, I guess it doesn't matter if FFS is banned or not. All anyone needs to do is drive around with SI, find that same school or pack of fish, drop a waypoint and beat them up?
So none of you guys have ever cast rubber at balls of bait before? It's ok to cast at that bait if I find it with my SI, but if someone finds it with livescope they're the devil, or cheating? |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Gregoire - 4/4/2024 9:32 AM
All I hear when I read most of these posts is a bunch of old guys yelling "stay off my lawn!"
The lawn where we caught all our muskies last year was 3 feet deep or less. Some of our spots hit daily many times by all kinds of anglers, including perhaps twice by us. Have at 'em.
I want the open water refuge to be left alone (from FFS), it is too susceptible to over -exploitation.
https://youtu.be/9B4JOt3QWfk?si=oIP2pYvdKhoym6rS&t=2533
Make sure to check out Pete's comments at: 54:18 to 55:18
Greg, do you have something useful to contribute as far as counterpoint, like "I won't sharpshoot muskies in open water." Most of the old guys here are defending tech out of principal on your behalf. The not so old guys are trying to keep musky fishing sustainable.
Kieper's point about about the bloating is dead on, but equally as important is that the temp difference between the surface and the bottom of the early thermcline is about 20 F (difference) 73 F -53 F. I know this as I personally had to study this stuff. The forage (ciscos) are in the colder layer the majority of the time. The spring is the only time where both kind of naturally overlap. Lucky musky have a REFUGE during the spring - we made a reg to protect them. I wonder why that was done?? Oh, yeah, because fishing them probably not a good idea, just like targeting them in open water with FFs is a bad thing.
Ruddiger - Manitoba is all barbless and has been for a long time. Barbless would reduce handling and mortality in muskies. Their head shaking and jumping would be effective in getting away more often for sure. Rarely lose pike with barbless as they tend to try and go deep to cover, head shake a bit less often.
If they banned all tech for muskies, fine with me. Be fine with a tinner with a 15 hp and a topwater with a single barbless hook. Would be Nirvana.
Edited by Angling Oracle 4/4/2024 11:29 AM
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | danmuskyman - 4/4/2024 10:28 AM
To all those saying how any Joe angler can now just beat up open water fish with FFS I think you're clueless. Open water fish of all species are the EASIEST to find with all electronics! Kirby said how people will find a pack of fish and beat them up to catch as many as you want. That same pack of fish is easily found with SI. If those open water fish are so easily catchable, I guess it doesn't matter if FFS is banned or not. All anyone needs to do is drive around with SI, find that same school or pack of fish, drop a waypoint and beat them up?
So none of you guys have ever cast rubber at balls of bait before? It's ok to cast at that bait if I find it with my SI, but if someone finds it with livescope they're the devil, or cheating?
I agree with you 100% REFUGE in open water. I doubt FFS will be banned, so whatever way the issue is going to be solved, it will have to be nuanced. FFS is a far greater problem given SI does not have any of the feedback attributes of FFS. The FFS guys get on a fish and follow it around and harass (like I mentioned in my first post or two in this thread). The CPUE comparisons between the two are not even close.
Edited by Angling Oracle 4/4/2024 11:14 AM
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| Howdy,
Oracle, I’ve fished barbless for northerns in Ontario by choice since ‘94 and genuinely don’t feel it’s cost me any fish.
Admittedly, I don’t do it for Muskies but I probably should. Sadly, the bites come so rarely for me that I feel compelled to put all of the odds in my favor. It kills me every time I lose a fish so going barbless by choice turns into an agonizing “what if” situation for me.
Realistically though, it’s selfishness on my part that I don’t go all barbless for all fish, not just muskies. Objectively speaking, barbless would probably do more to help all fish than any bans would.
Take care,
Ruddiger
Edited by Ruddiger 4/4/2024 12:57 PM
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Location: Madison, WI | Angling Oracle - 4/4/2024 10:40 AM
danmuskyman - 4/4/2024 10:28 AM
To all those saying how any Joe angler can now just beat up open water fish with FFS I think you're clueless. Open water fish of all species are the EASIEST to find with all electronics! Kirby said how people will find a pack of fish and beat them up to catch as many as you want. That same pack of fish is easily found with SI. If those open water fish are so easily catchable, I guess it doesn't matter if FFS is banned or not. All anyone needs to do is drive around with SI, find that same school or pack of fish, drop a waypoint and beat them up?
So none of you guys have ever cast rubber at balls of bait before? It's ok to cast at that bait if I find it with my SI, but if someone finds it with livescope they're the devil, or cheating?
I agree with you 100% REFUGE in open water. I doubt FFS will be banned, so whatever way the issue is going to be solved, it will have to be nuanced. FFS is a far greater problem given SI does not have any of the feedback attributes of FFS. The FFS guys get on a fish and follow it around and harass (like I mentioned in my first post or two in this thread ). The CPUE comparisons between the two are not even close.
So if open water should be a refuge as you say, would salmon fishing the Great Lakes be banned as well? Not many guys beating the banks for kings all summer. Lake Erie walleye? Just because some people want to fish differently than you and are successful doesn't mean it needs to be banned. For what it's worth, I'm not for sharpshooting muskies either, but banning something that a few people misuse is ridiculous |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | ^^ Dan, I'm focusing on muskies -- not here to fight the crappie, bass, pothole perch and everything else battle. I personally believe from an "ends justfies the means" point of view that outright banning this particular tech is easier than the other solutions that are going to be needed to protect these other fisheries, but there is no resilience in naturally reproducing populations of muskies. Sure a ban will work, but whatever we need to do to give these fish a refuge in these higher mortality scenarios. Big muskies in allopatric systems certainly have a top-down influence on the predator composition (in particular pike/musky ratio), so really need to be proactive in protecting them - implicated by the LOTW (NW part of the lake - Ptarmigan to Shoal) where pike started to dominate and muskie numbers declined. I don't know much on what the Wabigoon recovery situation is - but if recovered we are 40 years on. Some of the muskie population I'm concerned with in cisco systems are not going to be able to sustainably support the kind of mortality that is inevitably build over time, especially as this tech improves. We have to act now, not wait for negative feedback. We do not have musky biologists up here, they are concerned about walleye, probably rightfully so give it is the $$-maker. It requires Muskies Inc. down there to start it off with a position on it and the community will follow, just like it has for size limits, handling, CPR, etc.
Needs to be a working group put together to work out what's best. The industry should get involved and not pretend it is not an issue just because they have fans cheerleading for them.
Edited by Angling Oracle 4/4/2024 1:56 PM
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| Angling Oracle - 4/4/2024 11:33 AM
Gregoire - 4/4/2024 9:32 AM
All I hear when I read most of these posts is a bunch of old guys yelling "stay off my lawn!"
The lawn where we caught all our muskies last year was 3 feet deep or less. Some of our spots hit daily many times by all kinds of anglers, including perhaps twice by us. Have at 'em.
I want the open water refuge to be left alone (from FFS ), it is too susceptible to over -exploitation.
https://youtu.be/9B4JOt3QWfk?si=oIP2pYvdKhoym6rS&t=2533
Make sure to check out Pete's comments at: 54:18 to 55:18
Greg, do you have something useful to contribute as far as counterpoint, like "I won't sharpshoot muskies in open water." Most of the old guys here are defending tech out of principal on your behalf. The not so old guys are trying to keep musky fishing sustainable.
Kieper's point about about the bloating is dead on, but equally as important is that the temp difference between the surface and the bottom of the early thermcline is about 20 F (difference ) 73 F -53 F. I know this as I personally had to study this stuff. The forage (ciscos ) are in the colder layer the majority of the time. The spring is the only time where both kind of naturally overlap. Lucky musky have a REFUGE during the spring - we made a reg to protect them. I wonder why that was done?? Oh, yeah, because fishing them probably not a good idea, just like targeting them in open water with FFs is a bad thing.
Ruddiger - Manitoba is all barbless and has been for a long time. Barbless would reduce handling and mortality in muskies. Their head shaking and jumping would be effective in getting away more often for sure. Rarely lose pike with barbless as they tend to try and go deep to cover, head shake a bit less often.
If they banned all tech for muskies, fine with me. Be fine with a tinner with a 15 hp and a topwater with a single barbless hook. Would be Nirvana.
You want the open water to remain a refuge for muskies, maybe we should ban boating.. I'm obviously not serious. The technology changes, it has been changing pretty rapidly. People have always targeted open water musky. If more people start doing this, the fish will adapt. Those who use live sonar have already noticed that some fish are adapting and running from it. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Ruddiger - 4/4/2024 12:55 PM
Howdy,
Oracle, I’ve fished barbless for northerns in Ontario by choice since ‘94 and genuinely don’t feel it’s cost me any fish.
Admittedly, I don’t do it for Muskies but I probably should. Sadly, the bites come so rarely for me that I feel compelled to put all of the odds in my favor. It kills me every time I lose a fish so going barbless by choice turns into an agonizing “what if” situation for me.
Realistically though, it’s selfishness on my part that I don’t go all barbless for all fish, not just muskies. Objectively speaking, barbless would probably do more to help all fish than any bans would.
Take care,
Ruddiger
Good stuff, Ruddiger.
I'm right there with you. All my bass and walleye, pike stuff is barbless I use in Ontario as same stuff I use in Manitoba. All my musky stuff barbed. I often keep fishing with a cut off tine though.
Ruddiger, honest answer now please.
Lets say that you entirely agree with me that this is a problem for our musky fishery that needs a solution.
Solution one is mandatory barbless (and you personally will definitely catch fewer muskies than you do now, lets say a third less, and some real heartbreakers).
Solution two is a ban on using FFS for muskies in the open basin.
You have to make a choice. You are the fishery manager here. Both choices you are infringing on how other people want to fish, and in both cases you are reducing musky mortality (probably more with the FFS ban given the temp, depth issues).
You don't really have to answer of course, kind of rhetorical question. But to me this is why I am vehement in making something happen. Something has to give.
Gregoire, banning the use of FFS in open water would be the ask.
Edited by Angling Oracle 4/4/2024 2:26 PM
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| To those who support a ban, how much money are you willing to pay out to see it put in place? Even if a legislature passes a regulation, the industry will fight in court. They have invested a great deal of money in this technology, they will not give up without exhausting all legal avenues. Lawyers are expensive. Ask Trump and Rudy G. about that. Frankly, unless the legislature were to ban all sonar, SI/DI, I think it would be very tough to pass the legal test. Are you willing to give up all tech with perhaps the exception of GPS to get a ban on FFS.
Don't mean to be rude, but as they say, talk is cheap, takes money to buy good whisky. |
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